1007 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Fixers0 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Remarkable how much of that is heinously evil.

Executing a criminal leader and a terrorist leader and blowing up some machines, you've got some rather odd and disturbing views on the concepts of good and evil. then again using those concept at all makes me somewhat suspecious.

Executing prisoners without due process is good?

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not to anyone with a shred of decency. Or, to put it another way, they're only programs in the same way we're only meat; it's true, but there's a lot of variation between different kinds, hence the difference in treatment between intelligent synthetics and unintelligent programs.

Our brain is much more than meat. We have gestalt systems up there that form the different lobes that process different things.

Geth don't have any of that. If you don't accept that they're alive, at best they merely have a bunch of programs. A program is a program. It can have simulated feelings, but it's all code. It's no more living than the words I'm typing.

Bluebox AIs have plenty of gestalt systems, and the geth are a gestalt system. And if you don't consider them worthy of personhood... then you and I will have problems.

Oh, stop being dramatic Xil.

Absolutely not. Sometimes drama is truth, and this is one of those times.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 07:16 .

[The Heretic of Time]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Thanks to the benefit of meta-gaming you should know that KEEPING the collector base grants you 10 war assets extra.

So after ME3, thanks to the benefit of meta-gaming, you would be daft NOT to KEEP the collector base.

But then again, it's always daft NOT to KEEP the collector base, no matter how you look at it.

Give whole and functioning Reaper tech, which has never failed to indoctrinate people by the way, to the most collossal f-ups in the galaxy? No thanks.

And if you're going to metagame, you could also realize that 10 additional war assets is next to unnecessary.

You mean those f-ups who succesfully brought you back to life and gave you a new ship and crew and a second chance?

Still, it's common sense that keeping the collector base is the only right thing to do. Up until that point we know NOTHING about the reapers. The collector base will help us to get to learn SOMETHING about the reapers.

In short: we got nothing to lose, we're already doomed when the reapers show up. Might as well just keep the collector base and give it to Cerberus, in the hope they discover something that might give us an edge against the reapers. It's the only smart and logical thing to do. It's common sense. Only dummies blow up the collector base.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 19 août 2013 - 07:18 .

[Fixers0]

AlanC9 wrote...
Executing prisoners without due process is good?

two words: self defence.

Also: are they prisoners?

Modifié par Fixers0, 19 août 2013 - 07:18 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bluebox AIs have plenty of gestalt systems, and the geth are a gestalt system. And if you don't consider them worthy of personhood... then you and I will have problems.

Euhm, geth aren't people. They don't have personhood. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Legion tells you that in ME2.

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bluebox AIs have plenty of gestalt systems, and the geth are a gestalt system. And if you don't consider them worthy of personhood... then you and I will have problems.

Euhm, geth aren't people. They don't have personhood. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Legion tells you that in ME2.

Actually, all Legion says is that geth operate differently, not that they have no sapience.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bluebox AIs have plenty of gestalt systems, and the geth are a gestalt system. And if you don't consider them worthy of personhood... then you and I will have problems.

Euhm, geth aren't people. They don't have personhood. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Legion tells you that in ME2.

Actually, all Legion says is that geth operate differently, not that they have no sapience.

Sapience =/= personhood.

You were talking about personhood, not about sapience. Geth aren't persons, they don't have personhood.

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bluebox AIs have plenty of gestalt systems, and the geth are a gestalt system. And if you don't consider them worthy of personhood... then you and I will have problems.

Euhm, geth aren't people. They don't have personhood. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Legion tells you that in ME2.

Actually, all Legion says is that geth operate differently, not that they have no sapience.

Sapience =/= personhood.

You were talking about personhood, not about sapience. Geth aren't persons, they don't have personhood.

They do after being upgraded. If you wish to pick at their pre-upgrade state, fine; either way, wiping them all out is a bad thing.

You're describing someone's actions in a video game as "fiendish." If
THAT is fiendish, then is every act of killing in the game fiendish?
Does every morally reprehensible act--like having sex with a seemingly
underage character ("innocent," "child-like")--make the player morally
reprehensible?

The philosophy behind it is both reprehensible and stands a decent chance of coming into being IRL. AI is coming closer here all the time, and with it will come questions of rights, sapience, and all that.

I personally don't think I can decide one way or the other whether Geth
are "alive" or not. I don't think it's as easy and pat as the ME
universe makes it.

Then you're thinking incorrectly.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 07:26 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bluebox AIs have plenty of gestalt systems, and the geth are a gestalt system. And if you don't consider them worthy of personhood... then you and I will have problems.

Euhm, geth aren't people. They don't have personhood. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Legion tells you that in ME2.

Actually, all Legion says is that geth operate differently, not that they have no sapience.

Sapience =/= personhood.

You were talking about personhood, not about sapience. Geth aren't persons, they don't have personhood.

They do after being upgraded. If you wish to pick at their pre-upgrade state, fine; either way, wiping them all out is a bad thing.

The geth never get upgraded in my playthroughs, so I honestly wouldn't know about that, nor do I care.

Destroying the geth before they reach personhood from that upgrade isn't evil, it's pragmatic.

[Xilizhra]

The geth never get upgraded in my playthroughs, so I honestly wouldn't know about that, nor do I care.

Destroying the geth before they reach personhood from that upgrade isn't evil, it's pragmatic.

It's utterly, needlessly evil, as any unnecessary destruction of sapient beings is.

[KaiserShep]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Headbutting the krogan is renegade, and it was a hell of a lot better than owning him with a witty insult.

It's the only way I can see my Shepard responding to the Krogan. The shaman's response makes it all the better. 

[Sir DeLoria]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not to anyone with a shred of decency. Or, to put it another way, they're only programs in the same way we're only meat; it's true, but there's a lot of variation between different kinds, hence the difference in treatment between intelligent synthetics and unintelligent programs.

Our brain is much more than meat. We have gestalt systems up there that form the different lobes that process different things.

Geth don't have any of that. If you don't accept that they're alive, at best they merely have a bunch of programs. A program is a program. It can have simulated feelings, but it's all code. It's no more living than the words I'm typing.

This is pretty much my exact opinion about AIs. The Geth are rogue machines that need to be put down for the safety of the galaxy.

[Xilizhra]

And I could say the same about my example. Do you find people that do so morally reprehensible?

I've never once heard someone say "bigotry against synthetic life IRL is wrong so I only do it in video games," whereas I've heard that said for your example many times.

No, I'm not. Real life is not like the ME universe at all. The ME universe represents science somewhat poorly and technology as well. To say we don't have enough information is not "thinking incorrectly" at all.

Forgive me if I don't take you at your word on matters of science, given your history of evolution denial.

This is pretty much my exact opinion about AIs. The Geth are rogue
machines that need to be put down for the safety of the galaxy.

They are the galaxy, scum. A part of it, at any rate.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2013 - 07:33 .

[The Heretic of Time]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 The chances that they will fail are darn near certain.

Not at all certain. Giving Cerberus the collector base is a gamble, but it's a gamble we MUST take. Not giving them the collector base is pretty much dooming the galaxy for certain.

EntropicAngel wrote...

And for the choice itself, it has the problem of presenting two extremes but no middle ground (something that bioware does a lot). We should have been able to keep it ourselves, or give it to the Alliance, or perhaps the Council. One of those.

I don't mind extremes if they're logically explained. BioWare should have explained why we couldn't give the base to the Alliance. Maybe there was a good reason for it, but the game didn't present that reason to us.

Why would you give the base to the council or the Alliance though and not to Cerberus? You claim Cerberus f*cks up everything but as I recall I had to clean up the Alliance's mess countless of times in ME1. The Allaince f*ck up equally often as Cerberus does. Same goes for the Council.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 19 août 2013 - 07:34 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

The geth never get upgraded in my playthroughs, so I honestly wouldn't know about that, nor do I care.

Destroying the geth before they reach personhood from that upgrade isn't evil, it's pragmatic.

It's utterly, needlessly evil, as any unnecessary destruction of sapient beings is.

Who are you to judge? I really dislike the way you see your moral and philosophical views as the norm. You have an opinion and others have theirs, you seem to have a hard time accepting that even you're not always right.

[KaiserShep]

It would be interesing to see arguments of personhood come about if true artificial intelligence should ever exist.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

The geth never get upgraded in my playthroughs, so I honestly wouldn't know about that, nor do I care.

Destroying the geth before they reach personhood from that upgrade isn't evil, it's pragmatic.

It's utterly, needlessly evil, as any unnecessary destruction of sapient beings is.

Yes we heard you the first 20 times you said that. There is no need to keep acting all emo over it.


There is nothing evil about destroying (not killing) the geth. The geth are dangerous and unreliable. They need to eb dealt with while we still can.

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The geth never get upgraded in my playthroughs, so I honestly wouldn't know about that, nor do I care.

Destroying the geth before they reach personhood from that upgrade isn't evil, it's pragmatic.

It's utterly, needlessly evil, as any unnecessary destruction of sapient beings is.

Who are you to judge? I really dislike the way you see your moral and philosophical views as the norm. You have an opinion and others have theirs, you seem to have a hard time accepting that even you're not always right.

There are things I'll equivocate on and debate the moral philosophy of on an equal basis, such as the Balak/Fist choices. This is not one of them. I'll be damned before I give an inch to anyone who claims that some people are more equal than others.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is pretty much my exact opinion about AIs. The Geth are rogue
machines that need to be put down for the safety of the galaxy.

They are the galaxy, scum. A part of it, at any rate.

Just like a rabid dog is a part of nature. The Geth are dangerous, they feel neither pity nor remorse, we already saw what they did to the Quarians and other organics. 

Modifié par Necanor, 19 août 2013 - 07:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is pretty much my exact opinion about AIs. The Geth are rogue
machines that need to be put down for the safety of the galaxy.

They are the galaxy, scum. A part of it, at any rate.

Just like a rabid dog is a part of nature. The Geth are dangerous, they feel neither pity nor remorse, we already saw what they did to the Quarians and other organics. 

One dog might die, but you don't slaughter every last one in existence. Hell, rabies can be cured in several cases, and that's even more important when the infected is sapient.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The geth never get upgraded in my playthroughs, so I honestly wouldn't know about that, nor do I care.
Destroying the geth before they reach personhood from that upgrade isn't evil, it's pragmatic.

It's utterly, needlessly evil, as any unnecessary destruction of sapient beings is.

Who are you to judge? I really dislike the way you see your moral and philosophical views as the norm. You have an opinion and others have theirs, you seem to have a hard time accepting that even you're not always right.

There are things I'll equivocate on and debate the moral philosophy of on an equal basis, such as the Balak/Fist choices. This is not one of them. I'll be damned before I give an inch to anyone who claims that some people are more equal than others.

Woah, hold your horses, oh brave crusader of the poor synthetics!
Your debating from the wrong standpoint, it's not about equality between people. The Geth aren't people, simple. Some people think they're people, others don't deal with it.