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I find it strange that in the trilogy, we aren't allowed to...

Débuté par Cainhurst Crow , août 16 2013 05:37

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#51
David7204
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:05

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CronoDragoon wrote...

David7204 wrote...

To give the players more control over their character, obviously.


And yet they could have given players more control over their character with no morality system at all, a la Dragon Age. So why decide to make decisions either Paragon or Renegade?

You need to understand that the Paragon and Renegade labels are only a small part choices being 'good' or 'bad.'

Most of it's done through other clues. Dialogue, music, cinematics, and whatnot. Taking away the morality systems wouldn't change the narrative's portrayal of good and bad at all.

Modifié par David7204, 16 août 2013 - 07:05 .

#52
Arcian
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:05

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David7204 wrote...

Okay? And? I'm sure there are plenty of works of fiction that have themes that heroism is stupid and silly and futile. By all means, go and enjoy some of them.

Being good =//= heroism.

You keep using that word but you obviously have no idea what it means.

#53
David7204
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:06

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By definition, that's what it means. A good and powerful character. It's that simple.

#54
The Heretic of Time
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:08

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AresKeith wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Good job, Bioware. All you've accomplished with the Renegade/Paragon system is make David feel more smug. Damn enablers. /golfclap


I bet if David was on the Bioware team, he would have the Renegade cut and be all Paragon


Nah David would probably want BioWare to keep Renegade, but only to show that not being a hero doesn't pay off.

He would likely demand that Renegade players get punished for their eeeeeeeeevuuuuullll renegade decisions at every turn to further strengthen the pro-paragon heroism agenda in Mass Effect.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 16 août 2013 - 07:10 .

#55
Steelcan
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:11

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David7204 wrote...

By definition, that's what it means. A good and powerful character. It's that simple.

Lol

#56
David7204
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:12

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Something funny?

Wait. Let me guess. You're going to give me the ancient greek version of how 'heroes' turn out to be jerks and thugs. Is that right?

Modifié par David7204, 16 août 2013 - 07:13 .

#57
Steelcan
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:13

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David7204 wrote...

Something funny?

You

#58
Seboist
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:14

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Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Something funny?

You


Especially since he thinks he isn't the butt of jokes like the ITers.

#59
Steelcan
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:15

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No I'm not I am going to let everybody see just how ridiculous you are. No effort needed on my part tbh.

#60
David7204
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:15

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Do you have an argument to make, or are you just here to irritate me?

Remember what I said yesterday about this little clique showing up when I make posts?

#61
Steelcan
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:17

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David7204 wrote...

Do you have an argument to make, or are you just here to irritate me?

Remember what I said yesterday about this little clique showing up when I make posts?

Not really

#62
This is the End My Friend
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:29

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David7204 wrote...

By definition, that's what it means. A good and powerful character. It's that simple.


A person doesn't need to be good to accomplish good. 

#63
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:34

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wiggles89 wrote...

How is that a negative consequence given that the Reapers acquired rachni thralls irrespective of whether you killed the queen?


Because as far as the game world exists, my decision to save her results in her being captured again. Your point is a metagame point.

#64
Astartes Marine
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:37

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StreetMagic wrote...
Good job, Bioware. All you've accomplished with the Renegade/Paragon system is make David feel more smug. Damn enablers. /golfclap

As if David could ever be even more smug on top of the arrogance. 


A "good" decision doesn't always lead to "good" outcomes.  Like I said in my earlier post about KotOR II, sure it's a light side decision to give money to a beggar and you feel all proud of yourself for doing it...and then that beggar gets robbed by other beggars and nearly dies.  Your good charity nearly got someone killed. 

Every action should have a consequence, some form of effect and it should not always be predictable.

#65
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:37

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Seboist wrote...

Tbh, ME would have been better as just a TPS with spellcasting and no pretense of "choices". You woudn't have to worry about derp discontinuity like Udina/Anderson councilor decision or magical Rachni Queen clone either.


This is one of your points that always confuses me, Seb. You bash Mass Effect for how it does morality, then say it would be better as a mindless shooter like GoW.

In my opinion, poorly done morality choices is better than none.

#66
CronoDragoon
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:43

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David7204 wrote...
You need to understand that the Paragon and Renegade labels are only a small part choices being 'good' or 'bad.'

Most of it's done through other clues. Dialogue, music, cinematics, and whatnot. Taking away the morality systems wouldn't change the narrative's portrayal of good and bad at all.


The labels only serve to group together sets of morally consistent choices into a dichotomy. It doesn't matter what they are called, but they do identify two mutually exclusive moral systems. The decision to frame the choice system in THIS way needs an explanation. Your claim is to show one moral system as being consistently good and the other bad. That is a dubious statement considering the way BW has discussed the P/R system in the past, and especially because of the way Mass Effect 3 ends.

#67
RatThing
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:46

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I agree, the game seems to favor the paragon route. I see 3 times the player's principles are really tested, with the Krogans on Tuchanka, with the Rachni Queen and on Rannoch.
On Tuchanka, If you sabotage the cure with Wrex he finds out and you lose, what was it again? 375 war asset points? If you don't with Wreav you just give up 150 war asset points from the salarians. (Is that what's the "best scientist for the crucible project and the full support of our fleet" worth at the end?). On Rannoch you get the full support of both factions if you achieve peace. (And no matter how you achieve it, I can only see it as a paragon choise). Where's Daro'Xen's plan to control the Geth? The OP already mentioned the Rachni.

#68
CynicalShep
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:48

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Oh, come on. Balak was clearly touched by the act of meaningful heroism on Shepard's part and decided to retire from this whole anti-humanity terrorism business. And it's not like leaving a hostile merc leader free and armed and turning your back on him could backfire. In fact, he probably moved to Omega and became a social worker like the gang leader in ME1.

#69
DeathScepter
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:54

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Steelcan wrote...

Paragonsl choices seem to drip of naivete, that should be punished occasionally.



dedciated  paragon players should be greatful that I am not a Mass Effect writer. I  can be a cyncial ass and I do have bad days.

#70
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:54

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RatThing wrote...

I agree, the game seems to favor the paragon route. I see 3 times the player's principles are really tested, with the Krogans on Tuchanka, with the Rachni Queen and on Rannoch.
On Tuchanka, If you sabotage the cure with Wrex he finds out and you lose, what was it again? 375 war asset points? If you don't with Wreav you just give up 150 war asset points from the salarians. (Is that what's the "best scientist for the crucible project and the full support of our fleet" worth at the end?). On Rannoch you get the full support of both factions if you achieve peace. (And no matter how you achieve it, I can only see it as a paragon choise). Where's Daro'Xen's plan to control the Geth? The OP already mentioned the Rachni.


I think when they pull stuff like that too much, it makes it no better than one of those cheesy Bible games for fundies, meant to instruct kids in "right morals". Bioware inadvertently gets involved in the business of ethical instruction.

It's only fitting though. They go pretty far in trying to make Synthesis and the singularity as more unquestionable than they really are. So not only do they have a moral agenda, but a religious one too. Read up on transhumanist/futurist literature and it starts coming off like an actual religion. And Bioware uses their game as a vehicle for all of this. I kind of think they themselves didn't take it as seriously and just tried to copy some typical themes with the subject, but the overall message implied still disturbs me.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 16 août 2013 - 07:57 .

#71
DeathScepter
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:56

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Seboist wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Something funny?

You


Especially since he thinks he isn't the butt of jokes like the ITers.



don't bring the ITers to David's level. Compared to David, they are rational.

#72
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 16 août 2013 - 07:59

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DeathScepter wrote...

dedciated  paragon players should be greatful that I am not a Mass Effect writer. I  can be a cyncial ass and I do have bad days.


"Dedicated" paragon players don't care.

We don't do what we do because it doesn't backfire. We do it because we think it's right. We're more than ready to take backlash for it.

The people you're talking about are wannabe Paragons.

#73
Cainhurst Crow
Posté 16 août 2013 - 08:00

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David7204 wrote...

Okay? And? I'm sure there are plenty of works of fiction that have themes that heroism is stupid and silly and futile. By all means, go and enjoy some of them.


Shouldn't heroism be about doing something, even if the cost is utter destruction for yourself? You know, stadning up for others at your own cost, getting what you want through suffering, dying with your head held high and dignity in tact knowing you fought for what you believed in?

Not just about doing things and getting rewarded for it?

#74
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 16 août 2013 - 08:00

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StreetMagic wrote...

I think when they pull stuff like that too much, it makes it no better than one of those cheesy Bible games for fundies, meant to instruct kids in "right morals". Bioware inadvertently gets involved in the business of ethical instruction.

It's only fitting though. They go pretty far in trying to make Synthesis and the singularity as more unquestionable than they really are. So not only do they have a moral agenda, but a religious one too. Read up on transhumanist/futurist literature and it starts coming off like an actual religion. And Bioware uses their game as a vehicle for all of this. I kind of think they themselves didn't take it as seriously and just tried to copy some typical themes with the subject, but the overall message implied still disturbs me.


This is really hilarious, considering Bioware has jumped on every social justice bandwagon that comes along--and you're calling them Biblical? Hardly.

#75
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 16 août 2013 - 08:01

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Shouldn't heroism be about doing something, even if the cost is utter destruction for yourself? You know, stadning up for others at your own cost, getting what you want through suffering, dying with your head held high and dignity in tact knowing you fought for what you believed in?

Not just about doing things and getting rewarded for it?


Bingo--this is why I love Destroy so much. It separates the Paragons from the posers.


/hipster
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