1007 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

It would have been nice to be able to arrest Shiala.

Executing her is idiotic thuggery, she surrendered, is cooperating, needs to be debriefed about Saren, and has the Cypher which is priceless.

However she was in the retinue of a treasonous terrorist so you can't just let her walk away either.

[Bionuts]

Sirrurg wrote...
Murdering a murderer still makes you one yourself, hence by simply shooting him you aren't any better, it is just one criminal shooting another.

It is not about being better. The most admirable people in this world are those that give up their own humanity for the sake of others. Shepard on Arrival is a good example. Except she was slaughtering mostly innocents.

I do not value the lives of murderers, rapists, or dangerous criminals. They are roaches that need be squashed afore they cause harm to innocents.

[Barquiel]

StreetMagic wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

It would have been nice to be able to arrest Shiala.

Executing her is idiotic thuggery, she surrendered, is cooperating, needs to be debriefed about Saren, and has the Cypher which is priceless.

However she was in the retinue of a treasonous terrorist so you can't just let her walk away either.

I don't like that choice much, but I don't think killing her is simple thuggery. Use your imagination on what would drive a Shep to that. It's possible to make it more complicated.

Over and over again, human colonial attempts go FUBAR. Even Shep's whole life (depending on your origin) can be a series of giant screwups. It could create a lot of resentment in such a person.. this idea that humans want to find some future for themselves out in space, but at every turn, they're getting raped and kidnapped by slavers, attacked by council races (then just simply ignored by council races), in addition to freakish stuff like the Thorian. There's that line in the beginning of ME1 when Nihulus asks Shepard: "Are humans really ready for this?" The clear answer is No. They are not. The reality of it is disgusting. Humans are like the freaking punching bag of the galaxy.

Now play a human who always has that in mind all the time. That humans amount to nothing more than everyone's b*tches. It'd be a deeply resentful person, who'd jump at any chance of any type of payback. Instead of simple thuggery, it's more like trauma and bitterness.

That isn't really an excuse. The worst thing Shiala and Benezia can be solidly accused of is making a mistake about the capabilities of their opponents. But even if you think she needs to pay for her crimes (she only became complicit in Saren's crimes after she was indoctrinated and no longer had free will), killing a surrendering prisoner is not only thuggery, it's cold-blooded murder.

[SlottsMachine]

EntropicAngel wrote...

"Dedicated" paragon players don't care.

We don't do what we do because it doesn't backfire. We do it because we think it's right. We're more than ready to take backlash for it.

The people you're talking about are wannabe Paragons.

Yeah. Those wannabe's give the rest of us a bad name. 

[Arcian]

David7204 wrote...

By definition, that's what it means. A good and powerful character. It's that simple.

That's out of the national dictionary of Davidland?

[AlanC9]

EntropicAngel wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You sure you don't mean Refuse? 

Definitely not. Refuse is condemning the galaxy to repeat the cycle over and over again.

Right. Isn't doing the right thing regardless of consequences the essence of Paragonity?

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm not murderer. I'm a space cowboy. /eyeroll And after Fist's quest, 30 minutes later, I'll be officially sanctioned for it anyways (SPECTRE).

Right. It isn't murder if a Spectre does it.

[Philosophaster]

AlanC9 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You sure you don't mean Refuse? 

Definitely not. Refuse is condemning the galaxy to repeat the cycle over and over again.

Right. Isn't doing the right thing regardless of consequences the essence of Paragonity?

If you consider the essence of "Paragonity" to be synonymous with quixotism, then yes.

[Astartes Marine]

AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm not murderer. I'm a space cowboy. /eyeroll And after Fist's quest, 30 minutes later, I'll be officially sanctioned for it anyways (SPECTRE).

Right. It isn't murder if a Spectre does it.

Well, throughout the series it is made abundantly clear that Spectres are above the law.

[David7204]

Refuse is only doing the right thing if you consider the right thing to be disagreeing with your enemy simply on the basis of him being your enemy.

Which is monumentally foolish.

[David7204]

Also, looking through this thread, I've never once made statements that 'a hero shouldn't die.' That's completely without any basis whatsoever.

I have made statements that in a story with very clear heroic themes, promises of choices that matter, promises of a powerful and competent character, and a character whose survival is a priority to many players, that the hero shouldn't die regardless of the player's choices. The amount of video games that meet those qualifications is immensely low. 

If you can't appreciate the differences between those two very different situations, that's not my fault.

Modifié par David7204, 17 août 2013 - 12:34 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

What exactly are these heroic themes that make it so that paragon decisions must overwhelmingly be better than renegade decisions?

[David7204]

Now you're switching arguments. Are we arguing why a heroic Shepard shouldn't be forced to die or why Paragon choices should ultimately pay off more than Renegade choices? Because they're different concepts with somewhat different reasons behind them.

[Bionuts]

How exactly does a "Paragon" Shepard that did Arrival have any say, whatsoever?

[David7204]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Bionuts]

No matter how powerful or competent a person is, they cannot control the situation they've been thrown in. They can change it for the better, perhaps. However, they have no control over what actions are needed to accomplish that.

Needing to make a "dirty" choice for the greater good doesn't make the "hero" less powerful or competent. It's simply a matter of him/her working with the situation they're given.

[Br3admax]

Wait...are you debating with yourself. Because for once, I'm with David.

[David7204]

That doesn't matter. Narrative Causality dictates that shouldn't happen.

[Bionuts]

What exactly do you think a hero is? Do you think a hero is a male/female stripper that poops out gold coins and oil?

Not everyone is going to appreciate those type of "heroes".

What exactly is a hero to you, and why does that translate to stories where the "feel good" choice leads to the best outcome?

[David7204]

That's nice. Am I holding up a gun to your head and forcing you to appreciate heroism? Not at all. 99% of fiction doesn't deal with heroism, so you have plenty of content to choose from. Mass Effect does. If you think it's stupid and childish, that's a shame. I would suggest you find something else to occupy your time with.

[Bionuts]

The problem isn't that people can't appreciate heroes. It's that what you consider to be a hero isn't the same as others.

Being "heroic" isn't about someone being constantly put into situations they can fix without getting their hands dirty. That's simply luck.

To some people a hero is someone who sacrifices their mind, body, morals, and humanity for the sake of others. You might not see that as heroic, but many people do.

[Sirrurg]

Astartes Marine wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm not murderer. I'm a space cowboy. /eyeroll And after Fist's quest, 30 minutes later, I'll be officially sanctioned for it anyways (SPECTRE).

Right. It isn't murder if a Spectre does it.

Well, throughout the series it is made abundantly clear that Spectres are above the law.

Unless they are called Saren, that is