1007 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

I thought the ending was great because of sacrifice, or so I've been told.

(sigh) My poor, poor brain.

So says the Word of TxGoldRush

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Really? It would be perfectly acceptable for you for the Reapers to win and every single character to die no matter what you've done in the past three games?

No. But it would be perfectly acceptable for him to not be a 'meaningful hero' while stopping the Reapers.

Then on what basis does Shepard 'earn' a defeat of the Reapers?

You don't 'earn' anything. You don't 'earn' killing the Reapers. You kill them, or you don't. Depends on the firepower you have and being able to activate the Crucible in time.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 17 août 2013 - 02:57 .

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I find it insulting that you try to tell me how I and others feel constantly. Shepard got lucky. Skill and strength only go so far against skyscraper sized robots. The winds of fortune were definitely blowing in favor of Shepard.

Luck is always a part of the equation. But it's sure as hell not always all of it. Luck doesn't invalidate whatever other qualities people have.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

That's super. You're very clearly in the minority, aren't you?

Less so than you. You're the only person who believes in what you're saying.

You're also the only person that takes you seriously.

[Bionuts]

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You don't 'earn' anything. You don't 'earn' killing the Reapers. You kill them, or you don't. Depends on the firepower you have and being able to activate the Crucible in time.

From a meta standpoint, Shepard does.

That's the entire point of a character being a protagonist. If the protaognist doesn't affect the story, they probably shouldn't be the protagonist.

[David7204]

Bionuts wrote...

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

And that's something that made a great deal of people immensely angry, didn't it? How many was it again that praised such a thing as great?

[Steelcan]

@David, I made numerous "unheroic" choices but still got the same ending as 100% paragon, my Shepard is no less alive.

[Steelcan]

Bionuts wrote...

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

.  False, he explains the choices, he does not own them.

[David7204]

And that's fine. I don't have any problems with full Renegades getting the same ending as full Paragons. Not as long as they kept as many people alive as they could and as many useful assets as they could.

Modifié par David7204, 17 août 2013 - 03:02 .

[Bionuts]

David7204 wrote...

And that's something that made a great deal of people immensely angry, didn't it? How many was it again that praised such a thing as great?

I can only take so much fantasy at one time. I never once believed the Reapers could be defeated. They can't.

Of course, if Shepard was a blue blooded, stripper, pooping fairy dust...perhaps. Not my thing. She's a hero, nonetheless.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

And that's fine. I don't have any problems with full Renegades getting the same ending as full Paragons. Not as long as they kept as many people alive as they could and as many useful assets as they could.

Yeah that didnt happen...  Walks away slowly from graves of Zorya workers, geth, histages from BDtS, et alea

[Bionuts]

Steelcan wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

.  False, he explains the choices, he does not own them.

He didn't have to explain anything. He didn't even have to appear to you. Perhaps at that point he gave Shepard the reins, but without his consent, Shepard simply dies.

[CronoDragoon]

Bionuts wrote...

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

The Catalyst only "wins" if you choose Synthesis, and to a lesser extent Refuse. But I don't think "winning" quite captures the essence of what happens. The Catalyst "loses" once the current cycle docks the Crucible. It shows his cycles are no longer viable because he's proven not only incompetent at stamping out resistance (aka the Crucible plans) but also because even after he thought he did, the races come back and go farther than ever before. He's basically thrown his hands up in the air and waved the white flag by the time you meet him.

As a being that always sees the long-term, his solution no longer being viable isn't just about beating this cycle. It's about the trend of history. He sees it turning against him and knows a new solution is needed.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 17 août 2013 - 03:07 .

[David7204]

Then you haven't been paying attention and you have a poor grasp of fiction in general.

Hey, let's think about fiction for a minute.

It's super unlikely that Harry defeats Voldemort. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely that Frodo and Aragon defeat Sauron. And yet they do.
It's super unlikely that Batman defeats the Joker and Bane and all the thugs. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely that James Bond survives being shot at by a few dozen guys every movie. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely that Jason Bourne is able to survive a the CIA sending a ton of people to kill him. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely for the Rebels in Star Wars to defeat the Empire. And yet they do.
It's super unlikely for the Warden to hold back the Darkspawn. And yet s/he does.

Are you noticing a pattern here?

Modifié par David7204, 17 août 2013 - 03:07 .

[dreamgazer]

My 70/30 Renegade was fairly practical and aware of (most) other lives.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

And that's fine. I don't have any problems with full Renegades getting the same ending as full Paragons. Not as long as they kept as many people alive as they could and as many useful assets as they could.

Yeah that didnt happen...  Walks away slowly from graves of Zorya workers, geth, histages from BDtS, et alea

The Zorya workers and hostages from BDtS wouldn't affect things.

But losing the geth? Yeah, that would hit you big time.

[Steelcan]

Bionuts wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

.  False, he explains the choices, he does not own them.

He didn't have to explain anything. He didn't even have to appear to you. Perhaps at that point he gave Shepard the reins, but without his consent, Shepard simply dies.

.  He did appear and explain because he wants to find a solution to his problem.  His solution wont work anymote, so he explains the options open to Shepard.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

And that's fine. I don't have any problems with full Renegades getting the same ending as full Paragons. Not as long as they kept as many people alive as they could and as many useful assets as they could.

Yeah that didnt happen...  Walks away slowly from graves of Zorya workers, geth, histages from BDtS, et alea

The Zorya workers and hostages from BDtS wouldn't affect things.

But losing the geth? Yeah, that would hit you big time.

.  I got the breath scene quite easily without them.  I had like 7000 extra EMS

[David7204]

I know. That's not good.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

I know. That's not good.

.  But those N7 soldiers were so heroic!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Even then, the Catalyst is the one that won. Even if you destroy him, it's because he allowed you to.

And that's something that made a great deal of people immensely angry, didn't it? How many was it again that praised such a thing as great?

I mostly derided the ending as being fundamentally detached from the rest of the series in the narrative. I also derided the ending for its abject breaking of the lore. I'm not worried about whether he's right or not. Fundamentally, he is right with his point to an extent but I think his nature is flawed from an inherent core logic setting in his hardware that makes him utterly unable to truly grasp external perspectives. Whether or not he's right or wrong is irrelevant. He also provides no method of how he came to his conclusion and excludes it as the only possibility. That and he's scientifically and biologically inaccurate as well as changing his story and etymological definitions. I can't trust him because he refers to different concepts with his explanations and tries to marry them as a single concept. He's a flawed program, and one that is set to perform a galaxy wide genocide and annihilation of the galaxy. So it needs to be shut down.

Thematically, tied into the narrative with themes that were prevalent throughout the trilogy end up getting little more than a perfunctory nod in the final battle, all of which outside the broad concept of order vs. chaos are completely excluded from the ending at all. And now I'm rehashing a theme that was narratively resolved at Rannoch with a new outcome that sort of forces you to renege on the decision you could have made during that period of the game as a form that I interpret as enticing the player to accept what BW considers the best ending.

He's a smug little asshole too. 

That and we don't actually get to see any real payout for our actions and decisions and choices in the game. We don't see any consequences for our actions. We don't get to see the things that might matter to the player.

Still, nothing about heroism.

[David7204]

Let me make something clear to everyone in this thread. Everyone or anyone that somehow thinks 'meaningful heroism' means that Paragons get a super happy ending with puppies and kitties and Renegades lose the war and die or something like that - that's a ridiculous misinterpretation and strawman.

What I support is Paragon and Renegades getting the same ending for the same level of success through the series. Which would favor very slightly in favor of Paragons at best simply because Renegade choices had a tendency to kill people and eliminate them as assets.

I also support both unambiguously surviving at and only at a perfect or near perfect playthrough.

Modifié par David7204, 17 août 2013 - 03:17 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...
It's super unlikely for the Warden to hold back the Darkspawn. And yet s/he does.

What are you talking about?

I clearly remember the Darkspawn winning.

In fact, I killed the last Grey Warden, Alistair myself. 

Urthemiel be proud!

Also, Aragorn never defeated Sauron.

And ultimately, if you actually understand the circumstances at Endor and beyond, the Rebels really didn't defeat the Rebellion so much as a few misjudgements by the Empire and some tactical blunders won.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 17 août 2013 - 03:22 .

[Bionuts]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Catalyst only "wins" if you choose Synthesis, and to a lesser extent Refuse. But I don't think "winning" quite captures the essence of what happens. The Catalyst "loses" once the current cycle docks the Crucible. It shows his cycles are no longer viable because he's proven not only incompetent at stamping out resistance (aka the Crucible plans) but also because even after he thought he did, the races come back and go farther than ever before. He's basically thrown his hands up in the air and waved the white flag by the time you meet him.

As a being that always sees the long-term, his solution no longer being viable isn't just about beating this cycle. It's about the trend of history. He sees it turning against him and knows a new solution is needed.

The Catalyst wins because without his consent Shepard has no means to choose, and the current cycle is over. The Reapers are too strong, and doubtless the Catalyst knew of the Crucible plans long before TIM "let out the plans".

David7204 wrote...

Then you haven't been paying attention and you have a poor grasp of fiction in general.

Hey, let's think about fiction for a minute.

It's super unlikely that Harry defeats Voldemort. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely that Frodo and Aragon defeat Sauron. And yet they do.
It's super unlikely that Batman defeats the Joker and Bane and all the thugs. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely that James Bond survives being shot at by a few dozen guys every movie. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely that Jason Bourne is able to survive a the CIA sending a ton of people to kill him. And yet he does.
It's super unlikely for the Rebels in Star Wars to defeat the Empire. And yet they do.
It's super unlikely for the Warden to hold back the Darkspawn. And yet s/he does.

Are you noticing a pattern here?

I
told you that I can only take so much fantasy at one time. There comes a
point where it gets so ridiculous even for a fantasy.

Independance Day is the dumbest movie I've ever seen.