1007 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Let me make something clear to everyone in this thread. Everyone or anyone that somehow thinks 'meaningful heroism' means that Paragons get a super happy ending with puppies and kitties and Renegades lose the war and die or something like that - that's a ridiculous misinterpretation and strawman.

What I support is Paragon and Renegades getting the same ending for the same level of success through the series. Which would favor very slightly in favor of Paragons at best simply because Renegade choices had a tendency to kill people and eliminate them as assets.

.  Like who?  The only one that really comes to mind is the Rachni queen

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Let me make something clear to everyone in this thread. Everyone or anyone that somehow thinks 'meaningful heroism' means that Paragons get a super happy ending with puppies and kitties and Renegades lose the war and die or something like that - that's a ridiculous misinterpretation and strawman.

What I support is Paragon and Renegades getting the same ending for the same level of success through the series. Which would favor very slightly in favor of Paragons at best simply because Renegade choices had a tendency to kill people and eliminate them as assets.

I also support both unambiguously surviving at and only at a perfect or near perfect playthrough.

I think Renegade decisions are more pragmatic. 

Those people aren't assets; they're a hindrance.

I support surviving based on different ways to end the game....

Like DAO! You should play it!

There really is no perfect ending there. Define perfect. 

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

And that's fine. I don't have any problems with full Renegades getting the same ending as full Paragons. Not as long as they kept as many people alive as they could and as many useful assets as they could.

I killed everyone that can be killed. I got rid of a species, sabotage a possible cure,  letting all the robots get fried and still got the breath scene. I say that is almost a perfect ending for me.

[David7204]

The geth and quarians? We seem to have a hell of a lot more self-proclaimed Renegades bragging about killing one of them than Paragons.

Wrex?

The ME 2 squadmates in general?

I feel that Paragons are devoted to keeping alive and helping as many of the squadmates as possible, including ones they may not completely like.

Modifié par David7204, 17 août 2013 - 03:21 .

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

And that's fine. I don't have any problems with full Renegades getting the same ending as full Paragons. Not as long as they kept as many people alive as they could and as many useful assets as they could.

Yeah that didnt happen...  Walks away slowly from graves of Zorya workers, geth, histages from BDtS, et alea

The Zorya workers and hostages from BDtS wouldn't affect things.

But losing the geth? Yeah, that would hit you big time.

Why? Who's to say you couldn't just make a deal with the heretics.

Modifié par General Slotts, 17 août 2013 - 03:22 .

[Bionuts]

I do it for the feelings, but even I know trusting the Geth with Reaper Code is hilariously stupid given the circumstances. Sure, there's no consequence shown, but that's a result of the writers trying to preach.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

The geth and quarians? We seem to have a hell of a lot more self-proclaimed Renegades bragging about killing one of them than Paragons.

Wrex?

The ME 2 squadmates in general?

I feel that Paragons are devoted to keeping alive and helping as many of the squadmates as possible, including ones they may not completely like.

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

[David7204]

Actually, seeing as without the code there's nothing stopping the Reapers from just hacking them again, trusting the geth without the code would be hilariously stupid.

Modifié par David7204, 17 août 2013 - 03:28 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bionuts wrote...

I do it for the feelings, but even I know trusting the Geth with Reaper Code is hilariously stupid given the circumstances. Sure, there's no consequence shown, but that's a result of the writers trying to preach.

Depends on how it's implemented. I'm rather ambivalent on how I feel with the code.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

Just because there's no morality points doesn't mean that Renegades aren't a lot more likely to do it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Actually, seeing as without the code there's nothing stopping the Reapers from just hacking them again, trusting the geth without the code would be hilariously stupid.

Then why don't they do it?

Why didn't they ever do it? 

Heretics? Voluntarily accepted the Reapers. They needed to manually insert a virus of Reaper creation into the consensus to take control of the Mainline Geth (and vice versa).

Rannoch Geth? Voluntarily (though very reluctantly) accepted Reaper control based on a situation that the Quarians put them in.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 17 août 2013 - 03:32 .

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The geth and quarians? We seem to have a hell of a lot more self-proclaimed Renegades bragging about killing one of them than Paragons.

Wrex?

The ME 2 squadmates in general?

I feel that Paragons are devoted to keeping alive and helping as many of the squadmates as possible, including ones they may not completely like.

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

The points given should not be your indication of performing a certain action. That kind of thinking is why people want the system removed. That and "Always do Paragon."

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The geth and quarians? We seem to have a hell of a lot more self-proclaimed Renegades bragging about killing one of them than Paragons.

Wrex?

The ME 2 squadmates in general?

I feel that Paragons are devoted to keeping alive and helping as many of the squadmates as possible, including ones they may not completely like.

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

The points given should not be your indication of performing a certain action. That kind of thinking is why people want the system removed. That and "Always do Paragon."

It's so mindless. People don't actually think when they make decisions. They just do the good guy thing and get rewarded.

[David7204]

Legion says the heretics converted to the Reapers because of a function computing a different value. Sovereign sought them out. Their 'brains' were altered. They converted. Sounds perfectly analogous to indoctrination.

As for the Reaper geth? They didn't have to. The geth made a deal.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

Just because there's no morality points doesn't mean that Renegades aren't a lot more likely to do it.

Doesn't mean that they are, either. My renegade adept looks a lot like Steelcan's.

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's so mindless. People don't actually think when they make decisions. They just do the good guy thing and get rewarded.

The fact that Paragon players including myself take issue with some of the Paragon choices should be indicative that this is complete nonsense.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

Just because there's no morality points doesn't mean that Renegades aren't a lot more likely to do it.

Because the renegade path favors anti-synthetic views, more specifically anti-geth.

[Bionuts]

"I'm a murderer, rapist, drug dealer, have dead bodies in my basement"

Blue Sheploo: I won't stoop to your level. Leave and never do those things again!

"I promise"

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

Doesn't mean that they are, either. My renegade adept looks a lot like Steelcan's.

The BSN certainly seems to indicate they are. Reasoning that Paragons are far more concerned with saving people in general indicates to us that they are.

[David7204]

Bionuts wrote...

"I'm a murderer, rapist, drug dealer, have dead bodies in my basement"

Blue Sheploo: I won't stoop to your level. Leave and never do those things again!

"I promise"

When does such an occurance as this ever occur in the game?

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I played an 80% renegade and had Wrex alive, all but Legion alive, and no morality points are awarded for killing the geth or quarians

Just because there's no morality points doesn't mean that Renegades aren't a lot more likely to do it.

Because the renegade path favors anti-synthetic views, more specifically anti-geth.

Yes. That's exactly right.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Legion says the heretics converted to the Reapers because of a function computing a different value. Sovereign sought them out. Their 'brains' were altered. They converted. Sounds perfectly analogous to indoctrination.

As for the Reaper geth? They didn't have to. The geth made a deal.

I thought (and by thought I mean I know) the Heretics simply had a different perspective that was more utilitarian and consequentialist view that saw them accepting the value of Reaper upgrades and viewing the Reapers as Gods. As I recall, Sovereign extended it's offer to all of the Geth. If it was capable of hacking, why didn't it? Wouldn't the Heretics, who already voluntarily accepted the Reapers also be voluntarily accepting their perspective to be changed? That's not hacking.

And the Geth did make a deal. Why did the Reapers need to have a manual control over the Geth? Why didn't they just hack them to start with? Why didn't Sovereign just hack them back in ME1?

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

"I'm a murderer, rapist, drug dealer, have dead bodies in my basement"

Blue Sheploo: I won't stoop to your level. Leave and never do those things again!

"I promise"

When does such an occurance as this ever occur in the game?

*I just quoted David.* 

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

"I'm a murderer, rapist, drug dealer, have dead bodies in my basement"

Blue Sheploo: I won't stoop to your level. Leave and never do those things again!

"I promise"

When does such an occurance as this ever occur in the game?

Not all at once, but piecemeal those are covered.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It's so mindless. People don't actually think when they make decisions. They just do the good guy thing and get rewarded.

The fact that Paragon players including myself take issue with some of the Paragon choices should be indicative that this is complete nonsense.

What's a paragon decision you take issue with?