153 réponses à ce sujet

[Sasie]

Personally one thing that bothers me everytime I replay a old RPG is when in the first levels, a new area or for the entire game the playable character or others in the world keep asking questions that they should already know simply for our benefit. I realise we do need some way of learning the lore but as an example I simply can't imagine why a human noble in Dragon Age Orgins goes around asking questions about the Chant of the light or Andraste or why a dwarf, especially the noble, would have to ask about Paragons and Branka when they reach Orzammar. 

It's a cheap way of introducing us to the game and something that's not even nessassary and I would prefer if the Inquisitor was a character on their own and sometimes speak with knowledge they have even if we don't. We can learn about the events that are being discussed through the dialog after all. The Exile in Kotor 2 for example had the chance to discuss events that the game didn't explain before hand several times and it lead to some of the most rewarding conversations in a RPG that I can remember. Discussing the Mandalorian War with Atris or Atton is done several times without informing the players of what exactly happened in the battles they talked about.

Now I don't want our characters to know everything. Dragon Age 2 really did handle all this better for the most parts then Origins did or other Bioware titles. It's just a feature I hope they continue to follow in the future instead of going with the path taken in Mass effect 3 were we have characters like James ask why there are no Krogan fleets instead of Asari/Turian when anyone who lives in that universe should have some basic knowledge of the other races.

To prevent this from turning into a huge wall of text I will just summerize that I hope our characters will act in character as if they lived in the world rather then to be our avatar in the game and someone with no clue on how anything works.

Modifié par Sasie, 16 août 2013 - 08:41 .

[Taleroth]

A character in the sense that they can hold opinions, grow, and change. But that should be directed by the player.

In an RPG, responsibility for the primary character should rest with the player. And that's a major element distinguishing it from action adventure titles.

[Potato Cat]

Well I felt the Warden was our own character and avatar, whereas Hawke and Shepard were always Bioware's. I do prefer the avatar thing, but only if they make it so people who actually know the lore don't HAVE to ask the questions.

[Wulfram]

There'll probably be a few investigate options that make your PC seem a little dumb. Though you can phrase things to limit this if you're sensible, by having the PC deliver some of the exposition in the question.  "Shouldn't those Grey Wardens be fighting Darkspawn?" rather than "What's a Grey Warden?"

I really hated how KotOR 2 did things with the Exile, because I didn't feel I knew enough about the character's past to confidently play the character. Am I playing a war criminal here or not? That's something I really need to know from the start, not have it hinted at and revealed through the entire game.

KotOR 1's strategy of making the PC suffer from amnesia of course helps. As does making them a foreigner of some sort.  Though I'm not over keen on that sort of strategy really.  But even most of the Wardens had excuses for being under-informed, aside from the Human Noble.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 août 2013 - 08:48 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I'd really prefer that, depending on our background, there were already certain Codex entries explaining things that our character would, for all intents and purposes, already know.

Either that or have books/items/etc. during the respective opening that would supply said Codex entries. This way, the player then has a way to catch up with items the character should already know very well.

If that makes sense, at least.

[Sasie]

I do think they handled it better with Hawke in Dragon Age 2 then with the Warden or Shepard in Mass effect. I was trying to think up examples in DA2 as well that annoyed me but for the most part Hawke do seem to act as if she lived in the world and respond to people that we never seen as friends.

I think the questions was better phased as well and Hawke did know that Knight-Commander was a templar title when arriving in Kirkwall even if she didn't know the city itself. So simply being new to a area is a somewhat nice balance between the two.

On the other hand considering how DA2 went down I'm a little nervous they will go back to the first method of doing things. Also the problem with the investigation choice is that with some characters the investigation is half the dialog. I don't want to skip them all when replaying the game since it cuts down the conversation quite a bit.

Modifié par Sasie, 16 août 2013 - 08:53 .

[Iosev]

For the most part, I think that Dragon Age 2 did a good job with balancing what the character should know about events versus the ability for the player to learn about the lore of world (particularly for new players). I thought that it did better than Skyrim, at least, in this regard. Playing as a Redguard and asking people about the White-Gold Concordat seemed a bit silly to me, especially when you consider how much of an impact that treaty had to Hammerfell (I would have loved the ability to respond negatively, instead of inquisitively, to that that topic).

[PinkysPain]

One the one hand codex updates are probably less immersion destroying than blatant exposition in dialogue ... on the other a lot of people hate reading.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I'll just be happy with him being Warden 2.0.

[LinksOcarina]

Both, because that is what is likely going to happen, considering BioWare's M.O regarding characterization.

[Sasie]

Foshizzlin wrote...

What I liked most about Awakening was the inferrance of information in some dialogues, something Origins and DA2 didn't do all that often. When someone mentioned the Architect, you could say "I met him" or "I saw a talking Darkspawn" instead of the typical RPG dialogue option of "UHH DUHH WHATZ AN ARCITECH LOL".

I honestly can't remember any "What's an Grey Warden?" like questions in Dragon Age 2. Most of the questions in Kirkwall was because Hawke was a refugee in a new town. I might be wrong though and would love to hear an example if you remember any.

It even took me a bit by surprise since it's usually the way Bioware handles these things.

[Navasha]

Um... You don't actually have to select those questions if you already know the answer. Why would they want to remove stuff that is completely optional for you to do when others might actually like that option?

[Cainhurst Crow]

I prefer the PC being their own character in some respects, but us influencing the choices and most of the dialouge. It kinda takes me out of it when our player character can't know any information on the world and needs to be taught as if the adult character were a small child, wrex in mass effect 1 comes to mind, also about learning about asari. Frankly I'd like my PC to have some original personality bits inside of him or her already, makes rping a bit more fun for me.

But I can see the appeal in a player avater to. If they could combine the two, that would be best.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 16 août 2013 - 09:58 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd really prefer that, depending on our background, there were already certain Codex entries explaining things that our character would, for all intents and purposes, already know.

Either that or have books/items/etc. during the respective opening that would supply said Codex entries. This way, the player then has a way to catch up with items the character should already know very well.

If that makes sense, at least.

They did do some of that in Origins, though.

[Sasie]

Navasha wrote...

Um... You don't actually have to select those questions if you already know the answer. Why would they want to remove stuff that is completely optional for you to do when others might actually like that option?

If it was just one of five options to procced and rest allow the Inquisitor to respond in a number of ways I wouldn't care at all about this issue, well perhaps a tiny bit but not much. However usually it's not like that. When these questions are under the investigate tab they are optional but at the same time you lose quite a bit of dialog/responses by not going through them. Alistair's conversations about the wardens and Wynne is almost an entire character that only serves to inform about the game. 

Likewise in other games like Mass effect 3 there is no real choice but to have Vega along at first and listen to conversations discussing plenty of stuff people in the universe should already know. I do think DA2 handled it better then Origins but even there you missed out of a lot of dialog and conversation with companions if you don't ask what a Witch of the Wilds is for example in the beginning. Now perhaps Hawke is a bit dumb but I imagine someone growing up close to the wilds would know the legend when everyone else does.

So if it was 100% optional with no loss of dialog if these paths are not taken I would not mind but these questions usually make up quite a bit of the content of the game. However the Chanty of the Light clerics ONLY discuss the chant of the light and the only way to have a conversation with them is to be clueless. It hurts the replay value of the game in my opinion.

Modifié par Sasie, 16 août 2013 - 10:06 .

[Sifr]

I agree that Origins and DA2 handled exposition far better than Mass Effect, which suffered from this at least in the early sections, where Shepard would ask incredibly obvious things about the Protheans and the Collectors, despite this being stuff you'd honest expect someone in that universe to know considering Anderson mentions it being taught in schools. I guess Shepard didn't do that well in the 2183 version of "Are You Smarter Than A 10 Year Old".

Both the Warden and Hawke got exposition that felt a lot more natural, since you got the ability to respond with culturally specific things in Origins (the Dalish Warden could recite the Oath of the Dales for instance) while Mage Hawke got to mention little things like being able to sense the Veil was weak at Sundermount, little things that made it feel like these characters inhabited that world.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 16 août 2013 - 10:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Every aspect of the PC's personality should be determined and controlled by the player.

That aspect of KotOR2 you mentioned is that number 1 thing wrong with KotOR2.

[King Cousland]

Sasie wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

What I liked most about Awakening was the inferrance of information in some dialogues, something Origins and DA2 didn't do all that often. When someone mentioned the Architect, you could say "I met him" or "I saw a talking Darkspawn" instead of the typical RPG dialogue option of "UHH DUHH WHATZ AN ARCITECH LOL".

I honestly can't remember any "What's an Grey Warden?" like questions in Dragon Age 2. Most of the questions in Kirkwall was because Hawke was a refugee in a new town. I might be wrong though and would love to hear an example if you remember any.

It even took me a bit by surprise since it's usually the way Bioware handles these things.

The one that sticks out in my mind is Hawke asking what a Witch of the Wilds was, despite it being a story which most human Fereldans know (at least in part) from being children. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

King Cousland wrote...

Sasie wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

What I liked most about Awakening was the inferrance of information in some dialogues, something Origins and DA2 didn't do all that often. When someone mentioned the Architect, you could say "I met him" or "I saw a talking Darkspawn" instead of the typical RPG dialogue option of "UHH DUHH WHATZ AN ARCITECH LOL".

I honestly can't remember any "What's an Grey Warden?" like questions in Dragon Age 2. Most of the questions in Kirkwall was because Hawke was a refugee in a new town. I might be wrong though and would love to hear an example if you remember any.

It even took me a bit by surprise since it's usually the way Bioware handles these things.

The one that sticks out in my mind is Hawke asking what a Witch of the Wilds was, despite it being a story which most human Fereldans know (at least in part) from being children. 

Son of an apostate, sibling of an apostate, hung out in ostagar near the korachi wilds, lived in fereldan and lothering for most of life. Doesn't know the most famous ledgend about the most famous apostate ever.

Seems legit.

[Fast Jimmy]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd really prefer that, depending on our background, there were already certain Codex entries explaining things that our character would, for all intents and purposes, already know.

Either that or have books/items/etc. during the respective opening that would supply said Codex entries. This way, the player then has a way to catch up with items the character should already know very well.

If that makes sense, at least.

They did do some of that in Origins, though.

Which was great. They just need to carry it further, so those that should know the answer got head questions wouldn't ask said questions during dialogue. Or, at least, phrase those questions in a way that demonstrates the character's knowledge. 

[Sasie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd really prefer that, depending on our background, there were already certain Codex entries explaining things that our character would, for all intents and purposes, already know.

Either that or have books/items/etc. during the respective opening that would supply said Codex entries. This way, the player then has a way to catch up with items the character should already know very well.

If that makes sense, at least.

They did do some of that in Origins, though.

Which was great. They just need to carry it further, so those that should know the answer got head questions wouldn't ask said questions during dialogue. Or, at least, phrase those questions in a way that demonstrates the character's knowledge. 

I perfer this option. It's probably too much to hope that the questions or topics go away entirely but if the choices are shaped in a way that make some sense it would go a long way to make it endurable. I'm sure there is some ways for a human noble to discuss the Chantry without suffering from temporarily amnesia. Same for a dwarf and since races are returning in this game I like to see it expanded too.

[Sifr]

King Cousland wrote...

The one that sticks out in my mind is Hawke asking what a Witch of the Wilds was, despite it being a story which most human Fereldans know (at least in part) from being children. 

I always imagined it was because Leandra and Malcolm are Free Marchers. It was mentioned that they moved around a lot and only settled in Lothering permanently after Malcolm's death, so there's a few reasons why they might not know of the tale.

And besides, if you were a father trying to keep your family under the Templar's radar, would you tell your kids about fellow apostates of legend living in the nearby woods? Keep in mind, we're talking about impulsive teenagers here.