883 réponses à ce sujet

[stormhit]

1varangian wrote...

Looked very arcade to me and not a tactical RPG.

Harpoon? Really?

So combat will be all marvel superheroes again with so much awesome only 7 year olds think its cool?

The harpoon in that case looked like it functioned as a fairly standard stun ability. I guess I don't agree that this is somehow more arcade and less realistic than a DAO champion class stunning enemies by shouting at them.

[andar91]

stormhit13 wrote...

1varangian wrote...

Looked very arcade to me and not a tactical RPG.

Harpoon? Really?

So combat will be all marvel superheroes again with so much awesome only 7 year olds think its cool?

The harpoon in that case looked like it functioned as a fairly standard stun ability. I guess I don't agree that this is somehow more arcade and less realistic than a DAO champion class stunning enemies by shouting at them.

I agree with this. I just don't think it's as much of a stretch as people seem to think it is. Is it a stretch? A little. Like I said, strength, accuracy, and storage are a bit much. But those things have always been issues in lots of rpg's. DAO was admittedly more realistic than lots of games...and I thought it was really boring.

[Adain878]

as a preview I was not impressed. Nothing new, nothing interesting shown. Talks about party tactics and focusing on a single character being played with a 360 pad (wut?). That worked with ME but with DA I want the combat to be something akin to baulders gate and I just didn't get that feeling watching this.

To be frank Bioware is on thin ice with me after what I feel was a sever mishandling of the ME 3 ending. I'm just hoping we won't have another repeat disappointment.

[badboy64]

Too early to judge by just the video.

[Cainhurst Crow]

andar91 wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...

1varangian wrote...

Looked very arcade to me and not a tactical RPG.

Harpoon? Really?

So combat will be all marvel superheroes again with so much awesome only 7 year olds think its cool?

The harpoon in that case looked like it functioned as a fairly standard stun ability. I guess I don't agree that this is somehow more arcade and less realistic than a DAO champion class stunning enemies by shouting at them.

I agree with this. I just don't think it's as much of a stretch as people seem to think it is. Is it a stretch? A little. Like I said, strength, accuracy, and storage are a bit much. But those things have always been issues in lots of rpg's. DAO was admittedly more realistic than lots of games...and I thought it was really boring.

I like how in DAO my rogue could just wave his hand in front of enemies, and use the force to stun them. Now if only he could jump, he could make for a good medievil jedi. He already had force cloak invisibility afterall.

[leaguer of one]

Adain878 wrote...

as a preview I was not impressed. Nothing new, nothing interesting shown. Talks about party tactics and focusing on a single character being played with a 360 pad (wut?). That worked with ME but with DA I want the combat to be something akin to baulders gate and I just didn't get that feeling watching this.

To be frank Bioware is on thin ice with me after what I feel was a sever mishandling of the ME 3 ending. I'm just hoping we won't have another repeat disappointment.

Because showing 1 on 1 combat equl no team combat in game?

[ArenCordial]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I like how in DAO my rogue could just wave his hand in front of enemies, and use the force to stun them. Now if only he could jump, he could make for a good medievil jedi. He already had force cloak invisibility afterall.

Nobody's saying there ain't room for improvement.  I still don't get how a Bard stuns a room with a bad pitch.  That doesn't mean what DAO actually did right wasn't good stuff.

[Allan Schumacher]

Mmmhhh... they have tried the same design approach in DA2 and the result was a failure.

We actually used the same approach for DAO Consoles as well.

[leaguer of one]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Mmmhhh... they have tried the same design approach in DA2 and the result was a failure.

We actually used the same approach for DAO Consoles as well.

Quick question: Are we going to have the ability to ambush eneimes with our rogues similiar to the way we are able to in DAO's?

[Allan Schumacher]

At this point I don't know the answer to that question.

Still over a year out.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So in your opinion, how much of the gameplay will change from what we've seen when the shift from pre-alpha to something like beta? Just in your personal opinion and not as a promise or any binding statement type thing?

[Fast Jimmy]

Taleroth wrote...

Olmert wrote...

This isn't fantasy, it isn't magic, it's absolutely fake. It's Inspector Gadget.

I am taking this.

Seconded on the taking. That's gold. 

[Allan Schumacher]

So in your opinion, how much of the gameplay will change from what we've
seen when the shift from pre-alpha to something like beta? Just in your
personal opinion and not as a promise or any binding statement type
thing?

Hard to say.

From a system perspective, it's about trying out ideas for how the combat will play out. In terms of conceptualizing "WHat type of character will this be?" as well as "What are considered appropriate ways for the player to approach opponents of these types?"

So the guy with the big shield. A straight forward enough concept in that he's someone that if you attempt to smash him head on is often just going to be ineffective. So Josh showed off the hook shot ability and for most characters it'll jolt the target towards the character using the ability, although with the shielded guy his shield protects him from the primary effect, but if you hit him in the shield with it, it does knocks him off balance and makes it easier to attack him.

An alternative way of dealing with the shielded guy, is to simply move people behind him so they are hitting him in the rear while someone else holds his attention.

So the idea is to allow for hostiles that are more than just "walk up and use attacks like normal" (those still exist too, though), and how can we create them in ways that it's intuitive towards what needs to be done, while still having ways on experimenting so that the player can learn new tactics by trying things out.


From there, we can build up a bit more. So lets say we have this shield guy and we really like him. Are there any variations to encounters that we can leverage with this guy? We can have an encounter with 4-5 guys. If he is one (or more) of those hostiles, how can we leverage that to make interesting combat encounters so that the AI appears to be working (at least somewhat) in unison as well?


Now worst case, we end up going "ERrrr... shield guy is more annoying that interesting." (Which sucks if you spend a lot of time working on creatures and their abilities), so maybe we dial down how often he's used, or just scrap him altogether. That could happen, although given we've shown you the guy, there's a reasonable degree of assurance that he'll probably exist in some form when the game is released.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 17 août 2013 - 08:02 .

[ObserverStatus]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
I really liked the part where the wire frame mage twirls its staff.

You mean yellow rogue wasn't best pre-rendered character?

You're pretty sharp, that's exactly what i meant.

[andar91]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So in your opinion, how much of the gameplay will change from what we've
seen when the shift from pre-alpha to something like beta? Just in your
personal opinion and not as a promise or any binding statement type
thing?

Hard to say.

From a system perspective, it's about trying out ideas for how the combat will play out. In terms of conceptualizing "WHat type of character will this be?" as well as "What are considered appropriate ways for the player to approach opponents of these types?"

So the guy with the big shield. A straight forward enough concept in that he's someone that if you attempt to smash him head on is often just going to be ineffective. So Josh showed off the hook shot ability and for most characters it'll jolt the target towards the character using the ability, although with the shielded guy his shield protects him from the primary effect, but if you hit him in the shield with it, it does knocks him off balance and makes it easier to attack him.

An alternative way of dealing with the shielded guy, is to simply move people behind him so they are hitting him in the rear while someone else holds his attention.

So the idea is to allow for hostiles that are more than just "walk up and use attacks like normal" (those still exist too, though), and how can we create them in ways that it's intuitive towards what needs to be done, while still having ways on experimenting so that the player can learn new tactics by trying things out.


From there, we can build up a bit more. So lets say we have this shield guy and we really like him. Are there any variations to encounters that we can leverage with this guy? We can have an encounter with 4-5 guys. If he is one (or more) of those hostiles, how can we leverage that to make interesting combat encounters so that the AI appears to be working (at least somewhat) in unison as well?


Now worst case, we end up going "ERrrr... shield guy is more annoying that interesting." (Which sucks if you spend a lot of time working on creatures and their abilities), so maybe we dial down how often he's used, or just scrap him altogether. That could happen, although given we've shown you the guy, there's a reasonable degree of assurance that he'll probably exist in some form when the game is released.

Wait a minute. "If you hit him in the shield..."

You probably can't answer this question, but is the only determiner of that if you target is front or back? Or is it randomized? I certainly didn't see a reticle or anything (and don't really want to).

[Cainhurst Crow]

I would just like to say the shield guy kinda reminds me of the guardians from mass effect.

With that said, could we get AI for enemy archers that makes them move when they see a melee character approaching them? Or maybe move everytime they use a powerful archer move?

I feel it would add to the gameplay and strategy and make enemies seem less robot like.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 17 août 2013 - 08:34 .

[Sanunes]

andar91 wrote...

snip

Wait a minute. "If you hit him in the shield..."

You probably can't answer this question, but is the only determiner of that if you target is front or back? Or is it randomized? I certainly didn't see a reticle or anything (and don't really want to).

Just a guess, but there could be a different process as well the game could consider the shield a barrier such as a wall you can't do damage through.

[Nerevar-as]

Reminded me of the shiled genloks from the first DA2 DLC. They had a crystal back though.

[wright1978]

MevenSelas wrote...

Olmert wrote...

andar91 wrote...

I have no issue with the harpoon. Why shouldn't a javelin and chain work in this game?

Uh.. because it doesn't work in real life? Can you imagine carrying around 40' of heavy chain on your belt (?!) in addition to your heavy plate armor? And how does this "harpoon" shoot? Do you have to throw a javelin? (And if so, what is done with your main weapon at this time?) Is it a cannon that fires it? (And if so, what is this technology?) What does the projectile hook onto? If it's a harpoon, it would have to impale -- i.e., kill -- the target just to get the barb to take hold of it.

This isn't fantasy, it isn't magic, it's absolutely fake. It's Inspector Gadget.

What about 6 to 7 foot tall swords? They seem really prevalent in Thedas.

Pity I was hoping for some toning down of those swords.

[Sir Caradoc]

To be honest, I don't know.

They only showed us glimpses of something vague that could be described as combat system. Henche pre-alpha

Still my first impression is that Da:i seems to have a fairly action oriented combat system. Few notions:

-My biggest concern is that camera view was always locked on shoulder, just behind player's character. Its a great thing for immersion during cutscenes and while exploring etc, but it can make combat unnecessarily confusing, in particular if you hope to gain any real strategic sense about your party's positioning, enemy placement, surrounding environment etc.

If the claim is that this game is supposed to be a tactical party rpg, it needs same tactical overview camera options that we have traditionally seen in games like nwn 1-2, baldur's gates 1-2 AND _dragon age orgins_.   I truly hope its going to happen. Tactics is not just that I can use few defensive buffs or throw fireballs against ice golems or use blunt weapons against skeleton or heavily armored foes.

Its also how you issue commands to your party and how you position them in the battlefield. When and how you attack or defend against certain attacks. Its how you use your environment for your advantage, And so forth.

-I liked that combat pace has been slowed few notches and thus how it instantly feels so much more realistic and dangerous. Da2 combat felt utterly cartoonish and silly. I can take a leap faith just as much as anyone in a fantasy setting, but it has to feel belivable in it's own setting. Da2's combat didn't. When you're holding an huge longsword and a towershield in your hands in an massive plate armor, you just don't make many acrobatic moves for instance. And rogues don't just dissapear and teleport behind enemy without magic. And enemies don't explode in bloody bits when you hit them with a sword.

-I didn't see even once players pausing the combat and issuing orders and selecting potions/abilities etc. Although I saw the quickbelt and bunch of icons on the bottom of a screen, so those things are there in some form.

-Devs talked about party combat, yet all we saw was 1 on 1 situation. Ofcouse this is the base where you start building combat system. So I reserve my commentary about it for later date when I've actually seen how it works.

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 17 août 2013 - 08:53 .

[Plaintiff]

Olmert wrote...

andar91 wrote...

I have no issue with the harpoon. Why shouldn't a javelin and chain work in this game?

Uh.. because it doesn't work in real life? Can you imagine carrying around 40' of heavy chain on your belt (?!) in addition to your heavy plate armor? And how does this "harpoon" shoot? Do you have to throw a javelin? (And if so, what is done with your main weapon at this time?) Is it a cannon that fires it? (And if so, what is this technology?) What does the projectile hook onto? If it's a harpoon, it would have to impale -- i.e., kill -- the target just to get the barb to take hold of it.

This isn't fantasy, it isn't magic, it's absolutely fake. It's Inspector Gadget.

How do rogues turn invisible, call down a storm of arrows from the sky, paralyze enemies by singing and summon beasts from the ether?

[Versus Omnibus]

First off, I love that environments will play a factor in combat. Being able to knock over pillars to crush enemies will be fantastic!! Next, demons of different elements like electricity effecting how you approach them is a game changer I'm looking forward to. I hope other elements like fire and earth also call for different tactics and even better the weather augments or hampers these kind of enemies.

One concern I have from the video is when the Lead Director said he wanted the player to have multiple tools to face the enemy. I hope this means the inventory and storage have been revamped to help allow as much tools as possible. The last thing I want is to not have enough room for things I need to take down enemies.

[andar91]

I don't think Mike meant literal tools. Like a battering ram for shielded opponents. I think he meant character/game capabilities. Like abilities, potions, user interface, controls, and so on.

[1varangian]

stormhit13 wrote...

1varangian wrote...

Looked very arcade to me and not a tactical RPG.

Harpoon? Really?

So combat will be all marvel superheroes again with so much awesome only 7 year olds think its cool?

The harpoon in that case looked like it functioned as a fairly standard stun ability. I guess I don't agree that this is somehow more arcade and less realistic than a DAO champion class stunning enemies by shouting at them.

So there should be a bash ability for stunning. There don't have to be weird abilities that are too 'awesome' for their own good.

I also saw action gameplay where the player was trying to move behind the shield guy. If I want that I'll go play Ninja Gaiden or God of War. I don't want it in a game thats supposed to be a tactical RPG. It's about controlling a group and using abilities and terrain, not about controlling one guy and trying to run behind a shield guy.

I want RPG combat to look like it could be real life combat. Slightly enhanced with impressive moves but still real. Movies can do it so I don't understand why DA would have to look like a cartoon.

Magic does not have to be realistic because it obviously can't. But for balance reasons alone magic should be more subtle and mysterious.. but something tells me DA:I mages will be all about spamming fire and lightning in every encounter until your fingers bleed. Even Origins didn't get that one right.

Sigh.

Modifié par 1varangian, 17 août 2013 - 10:05 .

[Plaintiff]

1varangian wrote...
There don't have to be weird abilities that are too 'awesome' for their own good.

I want RPG combat to look like it could be real life combat. Slightly enhanced but still real.

I suppose that you also railed against DA:O for allowing non-mages to turn invisible and summon anaimals out of thin air.