883 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I doubt there's any point in making assumptions until the game actually goes into beta.

we can see the spirit on offer, if not the final implementation, and the game play footage shows that spirit to be 'AWESOME' 'KAPOOOW' 'LOOK DO BALLET IN PLATE LOLOLOLOL'

[Cainhurst Crow]

Vilegrim wrote...

I am very disappointed. It looks like 'awesome button' is still in, the guy with the greatsword doing spins and combat rolls, seriously what is wrong with looking at how people ACTUALLY FIGHT with great weapons? Far, far cooler looking than the gymnastics that was putting on show .  Oh and warrior summoning massive chains..erm wth? Is your combat system so fundementally broken you have to give everyone magic to make up for it?

People don't dodge when someone's trying to move in on them? Or try to circle around or flank opponents? Why has every person been fighting wrong irl this whole time?

Also, spins? When did the warrior in the vid spin? He seemed to give normal, two handed strikes to me, left, right, left, nothing unbelievable or gymnasticesque about it.

And what about rogues? Why should they be allowed to duel weild? Man, that is so unrealistic and hollywoody. They should only be allowed to be archers, and that's it. They should never be allowed to duel wield unless in actual sanctioned duels with a score keeper present. And don't even get me started on mages, I mean magic, really bioware? They do know magic wasn't real right? Why can't they jsut make them drug addicts high on poisonous chemicals and con artist like all the real mages were, and have them die from a single arrow hitting them like a real fight.

I mean, what's the point of a fantasy game if there's all this fun thing or whatever you call it, and not hyper-realistic combat simulation?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 août 2013 - 06:51 .

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

I am very disappointed. It looks like
'awesome button' is still in, the guy with the greatsword doing spins
and combat rolls, seriously what is wrong with looking at how people
ACTUALLY FIGHT with great weapons? Far, far cooler looking than the
gymnastics that was putting on show .  Oh and warrior summoning massive
chains..erm wth? Is your combat system so fundementally broken you have
to give everyone magic to make up for it?

People don't dodge when someone's trying to move in on them? Or try to circle around or flank opponents? Why has every person been fighting wrong irl this whole time?

Also, spins? When did the warrior in the vid spin? He seemed to give normal, two handed strikes to me, left, right, left, nothing unbelievable or gymnasticesque about it.

And what about rogues? Why should they be allowed to duel weild? Man, that is so unrealistic and hollywoody. They should only be allowed to be archers, and that's it. They should never be allowed to duel wield unless in actual sanctioned duels with a score keeper present. And don't even get me started on mages, I mean magic, really bioware? They do know magic wasn't real right? Why can't they jsut make them drug addicts high on poisonous chemicals and con artist like all the real mages were, and have them die from a single arrow hitting them like a real fight.

I mean, what's the point of a fantasy game if there's all this fun thing or whatever you call it, and not hyper-realistic combat simulation?

 Dodging is fine, parrying, riposte, shiled bash, all vastly superior to the ballet moves we saw combat rolling in a fight as anything but a suicide attempt? No. Stay on your feet, stay in motion. Two weapon fighting is a real thing btw, many schools across the world focus on it.  And yes this is fantasy, but I would much rather be playing a Game of Thrones than a Buffy. 

Suspenion of disbelief to include magic? Cool ,have it consistent and obey rules, those rules have been established: only mages have it, then keep to that, don't give it to everyone to make up for flaws in the combat system.   Oh and those Huge two handed shoulder height to fleer swings?  That isn't how the manuals show great sword fighting, my guess because it leaves you so open to the thrust, if the guy steps back out of your swing.

I find realistic looking combat (maybe a bit of display, and swagger, but the movements being right) far more fun, and far more cinematic and interesting to watch than show business fighting, UFC trumps WWE for me. And that combat looked WWE with swords.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 07:16 .

[Texhnolyze101]

Does anyone have a link to this combat video?

[Vilegrim]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Does anyone have a link to this combat video?

https://www.gameinfo...nquisition.aspx

[Solmanian]

I don't give much weight to alpha footage. Though I'm no expert of VG development, I imagine that when making a sequel you start by taking the previous game and take what you can from it as a basis that you later modify what's need changing and enhance/replace the parts that weren't wotking; it's seems easier than simply building a new game from the ground up, especialy if you want to include a save-import feature.

They also mentioned that they intend to make combat more tactical a la DA:O. Though I hated DA2 combat for being too "actiony", I have no problem with combat rolls; It's almost vital in a comabt system that values postioning. DA:I isn't meant to be a TBS, or even an RTS. It needs to be an RPG first, everything else second.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Was the video even posted up in a topic? This is like the fifth person today I've seen asking to have a link to the vid.

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Was the video even posted up in a topic? This is like the fifth person today I've seen asking to have a link to the vid.

yes the GI thread has it in the first post.

[Vilegrim]

Solmanian wrote...

I don't give much weight to alpha footage. Though I'm no expert of VG development, I imagine that when making a sequel you start by taking the previous game and take what you can from it as a basis that you later modify what's need changing and enhance/replace the parts that weren't wotking; it's seems easier than simply building a new game from the ground up, especialy if you want to include a save-import feature.

They also mentioned that they intend to make combat more tactical a la DA:O. Though I hated DA2 combat for being too "actiony", I have no problem with combat rolls; It's almost vital in a comabt system that values postioning. DA:I isn't meant to be a TBS, or even an RTS. It needs to be an RPG first, everything else second.

True, I suppose, if the story is good enough I will put up with combat I don't really like (and I am a bit of a hypocrite because I love the Witcher..maybe because it is ONLY  Witchers that do crazy things, and they have an in story reason) 


Oh and having looked again : The blow of wrath was a thing, just not recommened. so Ok the Sword guy is doing a desperation move, every swing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Vilegrim wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

I am very disappointed. It looks like
'awesome button' is still in, the guy with the greatsword doing spins
and combat rolls, seriously what is wrong with looking at how people
ACTUALLY FIGHT with great weapons? Far, far cooler looking than the
gymnastics that was putting on show .  Oh and warrior summoning massive
chains..erm wth? Is your combat system so fundementally broken you have
to give everyone magic to make up for it?

People don't dodge when someone's trying to move in on them? Or try to circle around or flank opponents? Why has every person been fighting wrong irl this whole time?

Also, spins? When did the warrior in the vid spin? He seemed to give normal, two handed strikes to me, left, right, left, nothing unbelievable or gymnasticesque about it.

And what about rogues? Why should they be allowed to duel weild? Man, that is so unrealistic and hollywoody. They should only be allowed to be archers, and that's it. They should never be allowed to duel wield unless in actual sanctioned duels with a score keeper present. And don't even get me started on mages, I mean magic, really bioware? They do know magic wasn't real right? Why can't they jsut make them drug addicts high on poisonous chemicals and con artist like all the real mages were, and have them die from a single arrow hitting them like a real fight.

I mean, what's the point of a fantasy game if there's all this fun thing or whatever you call it, and not hyper-realistic combat simulation?

 Dodging is fine, parrying, riposte, shiled bash, all vastly superior to the ballet moves we saw combat rolling in a fight as anything but a suicide attempt? No. Stay on your feet, stay in motion. Two weapon fighting is a real thing btw, many schools across the world focus on it.  And yes this is fantasy, but I would much rather be playing a Game of Thrones than a Buffy. 

Suspenion of disbelief to include magic? Cool ,have it consistent and obey rules, those rules have been established: only mages have it, then keep to that, don't give it to everyone to make up for flaws in the combat system.

I find realistic looking combat (maybe a bit of display, and swagger, but the movements being right) far more fun, and far more cinematic and interesting to watch than show business fighting, UFC trumps WWE for me. And that combat looked WWE with swords.

I still don't see where the ballet spining in the video you keep going on about. Are you sure you're not being hyperbolic like I was?

And two weapon fighting wasn't a real, in combat, tactic. Doing so was a way to almost garuntee defeat because

1. All your swings have less power behind them than if you had two hands on them. Additionally, your also weaker with blocking blows, and will have a harder time keeping a hold of your weapon. 

2. You spend more energy trying to swing two swords in any situation than you would one.

Dual wieldings advantages is that it allows you to defend and attack at the same time, catching blows with your off hand and delivering a precise strike with the other, but never using both, and definatly never both weapons at the same time like many dual weilding fights are handled, even in dragon age origins. And you would not dual wield two swords, that would be suicide, you would use a dagger and long weapon in combination. And most of the advantages of dual weilding dissapear entirely when you end up in a battle field scenario, where you are no longer facing down a one on one opponent, but are thrust in a middle of what is essentially a massive brawl. You'd want to either keep your distance, or adopt armored protection and a nice single weapon for melee skirmishes, like a flachion or something.

The fact of the matter is, rogues of DAO are hundreds of times more unrealistic than the warriors shown in the video. So I don't see a point in getting bent out of shape now about it. And I wouldn't really count game of thrones as realistic given the clengne clans freakish hulk like strength shown in the show, not unless slicing someone in half, armor and all, with an arming sword was a thing.

But that I will admit is nitpicky.

[Vilegrim]

[quote]Darth Brotarian wrote...


[/quote]

 Dodging is fine, parrying, riposte, shiled bash, all vastly superior to the ballet moves we saw combat rolling in a fight as anything but a suicide attempt? No. Stay on your feet, stay in motion. Two weapon fighting is a real thing btw, many schools across the world focus on it.  And yes this is fantasy, but I would much rather be playing a Game of Thrones than a Buffy. 

Suspenion of disbelief to include magic? Cool ,have it consistent and obey rules, those rules have been established: only mages have it, then keep to that, don't give it to everyone to make up for flaws in the combat system.

I find realistic looking combat (maybe a bit of display, and swagger, but the movements being right) far more fun, and far more cinematic and interesting to watch than show business fighting, UFC trumps WWE for me. And that combat looked WWE with swords.

[/quote]

I still don't see where the ballet spining in the video you keep going on about. Are you sure you're not being hyperbolic like I was?

And two weapon fighting wasn't a real, in combat, tactic. Doing so was a way to almost garuntee defeat because

1. All your swings have less power behind them than if you had two hands on them. Additionally, your also weaker with blocking blows, and will have a harder time keeping a hold of your weapon. 

2. You spend more energy trying to swing two swords in any situation than you would one.

Dual wieldings advantages is that it allows you to defend and attack at the same time, catching blows with your off hand and delivering a precise strike with the other, but never using both, and definatly never both weapons at the same time like many dual weilding fights are handled, even in dragon age origins. And you would not dual wield two swords, that would be suicide, you would use a dagger and long weapon in combination. And most of the advantages of dual weilding dissapear entirely when you end up in a battle field scenario, where you are no longer facing down a one on one opponent, but are thrust in a middle of what is essentially a massive brawl. You'd want to either keep your distance, or adopt armored protection and a nice single weapon for melee skirmishes, like a flachion or something.

The fact of the matter is, rogues of DAO are hundreds of times more unrealistic than the warriors shown in the video. So I don't see a point in getting bent out of shape now about it. And I wouldn't really count game of thrones as realistic given the clengne clans freakish hulk like strength shown in the show, not unless slicing someone in half, armor and all, with an arming sword was a thing.

But that I will admit is nitpicky.

[/quote]
I thought I saw, in the first video, vs the weird teleporting thing, the guy doing a point turn on his flat feet thru 360 during a strike.
On the Duel Wielding front : Nitchen Ithci-ryu style and Florentine style want a word for a start, as well as some forms of Kung Fu, so it was a thing.  Effectiveness is suspension of  disbelief, but do it in a way that looks realistic.  Technically a man in Brigandine or Plate is basically a tank, but games that actually show that are rare, and a DA game will not be one of them.

If you really care:  is an interesting documentry about swords and their use in battle.

Rogues using Alchemy and Trickery for stuns and paralysis/poison affect? Sure, established trope, gets a pass, but gravity defying teleporting lunacy?  That is magic, and thein universe rules say they shouldn't be able to do that.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Invisible rogues. It happened, it continues to happen, and it will forever be the elephant in the room when discussing realism in classes. That and magic.

Were any of those styles good for mass-scale combat? I honestly would like to know, because I truely doubt it. Not when it leaves you more vulnerable with less strength to catch an opponents blade, and generally, most forms of protective plate or padded reinforced armor restricted arm movement in such ways that such manuvers would be extremly hard and tiring to pull off, or so I would believe.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 août 2013 - 07:53 .

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Invisible rogues.

established trope, tho not a fan, but without full stealth and vision mechnaics, an ok way of fudging sneaking about and blagging.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 07:52 .

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...


Were any of those styles good for mass-scale combat? I honestly would like to know, because I truely doubt it. Not when it leaves your back highly vulnerable and generally, most forms of protective plate or padded reinforced armor restricted arm movement in such ways that such manuvers would be extremly hard and tiring to pull off, or so I would believe.

this guys is doing aerobics and hand stands in full plate mail.  That should give you an idea about how restrictive it was not. This guys doing star jumps pressups and general warm up, in full armor.  Brigandine and Lamellar desgins where even less restrictive. 

Mushasi (who invented two heavens as one style) used it in battle(in fact ONLY in battle or agaisnt multiple opponenets, dueling he always obeyed propreity and used a single blade) , Florentine fencing was also apparently used, but, and this is a major point for it, it was in the ascendeny when guns where making themselves felt, so armor was on the way out. 

Swords are reserve weapons in pitched battle anyway, polearms, pikes, great axes, mauls etc etc where true line weapons, swords (except in England with the English Long, Germany with the Zweihander, and Scotland with the Claymore) where back up weapons.  But they are cool, so we fudge a bit to make them more effective vs armored opponenets than they have any right to be.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 08:06 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

If full plate armor allows for handstands, cartwheels, and the like, than what was the problem with spins and dodges in warrior combat again?

Thanks though, those videos will be fun to check out. I like learning about military combat, espically non-ballistic forms.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 août 2013 - 08:06 .

[Kidd]

Vilegrim wrote...

On the Duel Wielding front : Nitchen Ithci-ryu style

Just thought I'd give a small correction. It's Niten Ichiryuu, spelt "two heaven one style", basically translating into "union of two heavens".

That's enough Japanese swords nerdery for the day now, Kidd. *calms self*

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

If full plate armor allows for handstands, cartwheels, and the like, than what was the problem with spins and dodges in warrior combat again?

Thanks though, those videos will be fun to check out. I like learning about military combat, espically non-ballistic forms.

Dodges are fine, spins are a desperation move, rolls are suicide. Ok, you know about firearms right?  How much would it bug you if someone spent an entire movie firing a pistol over their shoulder and hitting the target, literally, just resting a 1911 on their shoulder, pointing it behind them and spraying off rounds as a combat technique?  And having that work?

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

On the Duel Wielding front : Nitchen Ithci-ryu style

Just
thought I'd give a small correction. It's Niten Ichiryuu, spelt "two
heaven one style", basically translating into "union of two heavens".

That's enough Japanese swords nerdery for the day now, Kidd. *calms self*

TY, my spelling is bad enough in English, without inflicting it on other languages as well.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 08:11 .

[Khayness]

So far it seems like the popular TPS with swords style, I don't really think it is viable for tactical party based, unless they give us a good tactical camera view.

You can say action-RPG as much as you want, but unless your skills as a player still comes second to the character's stats, it is still an RPG with flashy mechanics but without substance when it comes to action.

Gothic is still my gold standard for action-RPG, if you were clever enough, you could go to town with a stick as a lvl 1 character and beat the living daylights out of any human NPC in duels, because YOU were skilled, not your character.

[Vilegrim]

Filament wrote...

Great, replace the roll with a cartwheel. Unrealism solved. I can't wait for my cartwheeling inquisitor.

, or a parry, or a disarm and throw, or half sword and rearaange his teeth with the pommel of your sword or..

[Kidd]

Wasn't the roll just a talent he activated by pressing B? That would seem to function very similarly to the dodge talent in DA2.

[Cainhurst Crow]

@Vilegrim, you've obviously never heard the madness that is gunkata or gunfu. XD

To be perfectly honestly, realism in combat has never been something that bothered me. I'm a fan of stuff like star wars lightsaber forms, and those are full of impossible moves, style, and great sequences that are probably suicide using a real weapon.

What get's under my skin is non-realistic stunts, such as if the inquisitor jumped off a 100 foot cliff and was completely fine because the inquisitor landed in a shallow pool of water to break their fall. But even that isn't entirely true, as I can forgive something like assassin's creed with it's gravity and physics defying leaps and parkour.

Quite frankly, I am a man who enjoys fun over realism when it comes to fictional action games, and a proponent of the rule of cool in fiction. Realism is more like icing on a cake, good when used sparingly, but too much ruins the flavor and can leave you feeling too sick to keep playing.

[PillarBiter]

I love seeing people freak out over these things:
-Summoning massive fireballs out of nothing? No problem.
-dragons and demons everywhere? sure.
-The whole world needs to be dependant on one person's actions? Of course.

-A chain you can shoot and a combat roll? Holy flapjacks, Bioware, are you on drugs? That sh*t ain't real!