883 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Maybe someone should tell us to gather our party before venturing forth.

I was actually thinking this myself.

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe someone should tell us to gather our party before venturing forth.

I was actually thinking this myself.

This makes me strangly happy.

Il Divo wrote...



No offense, but I think you're making an extremely artificial distinction simply to bash DA:I on this front.

Your
stance on dual wielding illustrates this. There is nothing realistic or
intelligent about its portrayal in either Origins or DA2, including
watching a warrior run around with two long swords.

Two
Heavens Style, Mushasi, one of the greatest samurai to ever lived, used
two swords in battle, usually the Daisho pair, but sometimes Katana and
Boken, or two katanas (his martial arts school had instructions for
either apparently), and Florentine style is a thing, so it happened, and
the DAO portrayal was not as bad as the DA2
spasmodic flailing-with-knives. Could be done better, sure, but is was
one of the better versions in CRPGS.

It would be nice if someone could actually be bothered to a) look into how fast and nasty weapons actually where, and  realise that this means you have no need to make up random abilities from nowhere because your encounter gimmik needs it, swords are more than just blades, and bearded axes used right pretty much make turning up with a shield suicidal, that is before we get to how powerful true war bows are, or true siege weight crossbows, and totally neglects magic, or alchemy ....

You have a vast and rich tradtion to call on, from anywhere on earth, to counter a problem, (dude has a shield) and instead of calling on that tradition, you say: I know lets use a harpoon, coz yea, that's AWESOME. I wont call it lazy, because programing it to work must have been a bear of a task, but why do it in the first place? 

I was hoping fopr combat I would enjoy, but the pihlosophy that gives us harpoons suggests that it will be somethijng I turn to the easiest setting and blast thru to get to the next bit of story, at best.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 11:50 .

[FireAndBlood]

If the harpoon ability bothers you so much then don't use it.

[Wulfram]

FireAndBlood wrote...

If the harpoon ability bothers you so much then don't use it.

Depends how fundamental they make it to gameplay. Hopefully it'll just be an optional tree and we can do this without too many issues.

Of course, bad guys might use still use it.

[mannitt]

I honestly don't get the hate for the harpoon. It's a flashy stun move in a fantasy game. Talking about realistic schools of sword play also confuses me. There's an entire culture of Hong Kong flicks and Japanese anime and live action, that is all about flashy weapon techniques. I feel like you're saying, do what Disney does. Analyse and get every detail down perfect. There's also a reason they closed down the 2D studio. It take a looonng time and it's expensive. I know that was a weird comparison, but wow, super realism in video games sounds boring as hell. Of course Scorpion was my second favorite character in all of MK, so maybe I also have a little bias to the idea.

[Wulfram]

Well, I don't like overly flashy combat moves, which is probably why I don't like those genres.

[Vilegrim]

mannitt wrote...

I honestly don't get the hate for the harpoon. It's a flashy stun move in a fantasy game. Talking about realistic schools of sword play also confuses me. There's an entire culture of Hong Kong flicks and Japanese anime and live action, that is all about flashy weapon techniques. I feel like you're saying, do what Disney does. Analyse and get every detail down perfect. There's also a reason they closed down the 2D studio. It take a looonng time and it's expensive. I know that was a weird comparison, but wow, super realism in video games sounds boring as hell. Of course Scorpion was my second favorite character in all of MK, so maybe I also have a little bias to the idea.

Wu Xai gets a pass, same as super robot, not that I am a great fan of either.  But DA has chosen suropean flavoured dark fantasy, and cited Game of Thrones (among others) as inspiration, while claiming to be the successor to Baldurs Gate (and the further they move away from that heritage, the worse the game becomes, in my opinion) .

To give you an idea of where I stand on combat in video games, my favourite combat system in an RPG, the one I enjoy the most (it has it's flaws and the low budget shows, but the fundementals are awesome) is 'Mount and Blade',  I haven't played a beat em up game since MK2 in about 1994, only played that because it was about the only arcade game in town and I didn't ahve a PC of my own at the time.

Motion captured real fighting looks far cooler to me than super duper flashy gimmicky firework spewing fail.

Give me BW quality storytelling with Mount and Blade style combat?  Yes please! My Inquisitior, riding at the head of a warband  with his faithful companions leading units into war, the rogues using greek fire, smoke bombs, caltrops etc etc to sow discord and panic, maybe having done a mission the previous night to sabotage the enemy supplies, before either fighting as light infantry skirmishers or Archers, a solid core of plate armoured warriors advancing in line, banners snapping in the wind, armour gleaming, dazzlingly bright in the sun light, archers to the flanks, pouring vollies into the heart of the enemy line, the ground becoming slick and muddy with the blood of the fallen, the clash of blades and screams of the wounded echoig aroudn the field  and mages (who in this scenario basically act as field medics/artilery), either standing proud with their guards engaged in spell and counterspell duels, settign the air above the battle aflame, some spells breaking thru to strike down unlucky squads, or rushing with a cavalry detachment to provide aid and reinforcement to a weakening line and injured men    And that would be boring?

It's not what we are getting sadly, but that would be the dream.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 12:47 .

[Il Divo]

Vilegrim wrote...

Two
Heavens Style, Mushasi, one of the greatest samurai to ever lived, used
two swords in battle, usually the Daisho pair, but sometimes Katana and
Boken, or two katanas (his martial arts school had instructions for
either apparently), and Florentine style is a thing, so it happened, and
the DAO portrayal was not as bad as the DA2
spasmodic flailing-with-knives. Could be done better, sure, but is was
one of the better versions in CRPGS.

Not as bad does not equal good. It's still pretty freaking bad from the perspective of realism. Offering highly specific examples of dual-wielding employed in isolation does not speak to a style's overall capability. Again, there's a reason why dual-wielding never achieved success.

Saying "ZOMG, MUSASHI USED IT!!!" doesn't alter that fact. Does dual-wielding have any utility in skirmish-style combat as seen in DA:O? And do the animations there have any relation to how actual dual-wielding is employed? The answer to both is no.

Basically, if you want realism, get out now.

It would be nice if someone could actually be bothered to a) look into how fast and nasty weapons actually where, and  realise that this means you have no need to make up random abilities from nowhere because your encounter gimmik needs it, swords are more than just blades, and bearded axes used right pretty much make turning up with a shield suicidal, that is before we get to how powerful true war bows are, or true siege weight crossbows, and totally neglects magic, or alchemy .... 

It would be nice if someone could bring up more than highly isolated examples to demonstrate dual wielding's viability. Show me where dual wielding two long swords was ever regarded as a viable, regular tactic to employ.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 août 2013 - 12:50 .

[Vilegrim]

Il Divo wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Two
Heavens Style, Mushasi, one of the greatest samurai to ever lived, used
two swords in battle, usually the Daisho pair, but sometimes Katana and
Boken, or two katanas (his martial arts school had instructions for
either apparently), and Florentine style is a thing, so it happened, and
the DAO portrayal was not as bad as the DA2
spasmodic flailing-with-knives. Could be done better, sure, but is was
one of the better versions in CRPGS.

Not as bad does not equal good. It's still pretty freaking bad from the perspective of realism. Offering highly specific examples of dual-wielding employed in isolation does not speak to a style's overall capability. Again, there's a reason why dual-wielding never achieved success.

Saying "ZOMG, MUSASHI USED IT!!!" doesn't alter that fact. Does dual-wielding have any utility in skirmish-style combat as seen in DA:O? And do the animations there have any relation to how actual dual-wielding is employed? The answer to both is no.

Basically, if you want realism, get out now.

It would be nice if someone could actually be bothered to a) look into how fast and nasty weapons actually where, and  realise that this means you have no need to make up random abilities from nowhere because your encounter gimmik needs it, swords are more than just blades, and bearded axes used right pretty much make turning up with a shield suicidal, that is before we get to how powerful true war bows are, or true siege weight crossbows, and totally neglects magic, or alchemy .... 

It would be nice if someone could bring up more than highly isolated examples to demonstrate dual wielding's viability. Show me where dual wielding two long swords was ever regarded as a viable, regular tactic to employ.

if the sacrifice to avoid harpoons is that DW dies, so be it. Yet I showed two entire schools of fighting dedicated to DW, Two Heavens, and Florentine, both fo which are dedicated to skirmish style combat (in a larger battle don't be caught using a sword, let alone two of them, use a pole arm, or a gun, or a bow, like a sane person) Two Heavens being to defend and defeat multiple opponents, florentine developing from renaissance street fighting(as an aside the original orgin of the word swashbuckle, to call people out you would strike you buckler or main gauche with your rapier, making a distinctive sound), neither situation being a chereographed event. I bet you cannot find one dedicated to throwing harpoons in combat.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 12:56 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I've got an idea for the barrel roll (and all sorts of other twitch mechanics like it) that may be a good balancing act for, at the very least, my own personal preferences.

As others have suggested, have it be tied to a cooldown, to prevent spamming, a la this mess of a fight in real life.

However, that could be arbitrary. After all, it still would require the player to take control of the character and use the ability in real-time, to the neglect of the rest of the party (something I find much more as single-character based gameplay instead of party-based gameplay).

So here are three caveats to the twitch mechnics (dodges, barrel rolls, side-steps, what have you).

1) They should be mapped to buttons not taken up by other abilities. This is really a concern from a console peasant like myself, but we are only given access to six abilities on the gamepad - please don't limit them further by tying these dodge/twitch abilities to take even more of these limited spots (which, given that the B button was pressed, is a real concern for me).

2) Have the cooldown and efficacy of these twitch mechanics stat based. For instance, if I am a rogue wearing light armor with a high Dex score, I should be able to roll/dodge faster (quicker response to when the button is pressed), further (distance-wise, so that a large enemy's attack may or may not be avoided depending on how far the dodge is) and be used more often (with a relatively low cooldown for this character). Conversely, a fighter in heavy plate armor and a low Dex score should be able to to roll/dodge more slowly (it takes a lot of momentum to throw yourself into a dodge with 50+ pounds of armor on your back), roll a shorter distance (same logic as above, but in reverse) and less often (since rolling should wind the character in this situation). This brings armor weight and Dexterity, two very character-based, stat-rooted factors into the efficacy and ability to use said twitch mechanics effectively. In addition, possibly you could upgrade/level up these skills to help overcome these limitations.

3) And lastly, these abilities, like all abilities, should be able to be set up in the Tactics screen. If a Rage Demon materializes behind my character with an assassinate attack, they should be able to use their roll/dodge/what-have-you twitch ability without me directly selecting them and telling them to use it. This way, if an Ogre shows up and bum rushes my party, they would all have the tactics set up to dodge out of the way, instead of me picking favorites and having to decide who is going to use the all-powerful twitch skill this time.

You mentioned the desire to make it so that a player could play one character and let the AI take care of the rest. That is an okay goal - after all, many people play that way, Mass Effect style.

I'd suggest on top of that is what Sylvius has advocated many times: namely, the ability to let ALL characters run on AI, with no one selected. This would let you get a feel if the Tactics you had set up do really work correctly and to micromanage on the resource level or using direct skills as circumstances arise alone. The game already allows for all of the set up for it, it would just require allowing for the player to deselect any character.

If you can come up with a system that would incorporate stats and character-specific information to the concept of twitch mechanics in a way that those who enjoy playing in action-mode have fun, while also having the ability to play the "eye-in-the-sky" with no characters selected as Sylvius is a proponent of AND that there would be no advantage to one form of gameplay over the other, then you would have a system that could truly please most of the people in this thread.

Just my two cents.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 août 2013 - 01:15 .

[Vilegrim]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
interesting things
.

That 'barrel roll' video show WHY it is such a stupid idea, if the guy on his feet had any kind of weapon, the guy rolling around on the florr would have been so much mobile kebab after about 2 seconds.

setting up the entire party to run on A.I aounds interesting, more of an RTS mechanic almost, target selection and overall strategy rather than cast x at y at time z micro management. 

[Am1vf]

Vilegrim wrote...
(...)
Give me BW quality storytelling with Mount and Blade style combat?  Yes please! My Inquisitior, riding at the head of a warband  with his faithful companions leading units into war, the rogues using greek fire, smoke bombs, caltrops etc etc to sow discord and panic, maybe having done a mission the previous night to sabotage the enemy supplies, before either fighting as light infantry skirmishers or Archers, a solid core of plate armoured warriors advancing in line, banners snapping in the wind, armour gleaming, dazzlingly bright in the sun light, archers to the flanks, pouring vollies into the heart of the enemy line, the ground becoming slick and muddy with the blood of the fallen, the clash of blades and screams of the wounded echoig aroudn the field  and mages (who in this scenario basically act as field medics/artilery), either standing proud with their guards engaged in spell and counterspell duels, settign the air above the battle aflame, some spells breaking thru to strike down unlucky squads, or rushing with a cavalry detachment to provide aid and reinforcement to a weakening line and injured men    And that would be boring?

It's not what we are getting sadly, but that would be the dream.

I prefer the combat like Vilegrim has described (good example BTW), but if BioWare developers don't want Inquisition to be like that it's okay. I enjoyed the fights in Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann too, with all it's silliness.

To me, a fight in DA2 was like watching the fighting of Xena Warrior Princess. I prefer the fighting in Game of Thrones, but that doesn't mean that Xena has to be GoT.

As an alternative to the grappling hook, or whatever that was, I would suggest giving warriors something like this:
so they can use it to grab the shield from the side and pull. Or like Tomb Raider's Pickaxe. 

Modifié par Am1_vf, 18 août 2013 - 01:27 .

[Il Divo]

Vilegrim wrote...

if the sacrifice to avoid harpoons is that DW dies, so be it. Yet I showed two entire schools of fighting dedicated to DW, Two Heavens, and Florentine, both fo which are dedicated to skirmish style combat (in a larger battle don't be caught using a sword, let alone two of them, use a pole arm, or a gun, or a bow, like a sane person) Two Heavens being to defend and defeat multiple opponents, florentine developing from renaissance street fighting(as an aside the original orgin of the word swashbuckle, to call people out you would strike you buckler or main gauche with your rapier, making a distinctive sound), neither situation being a chereographed event.

You showed absolutely nothing. Dual-wielding in DA:O has absolutely no visual similarities to Florentine Dual-wielding. The player is able to go two full long swords, while Florentine dual-wielding relied on the smaller off-hand weapon, typically for countering. Far as I recall, dual-wielding long swords results in the exact same visual animations as long/short combos or even two short swords.

I bet you cannot find one dedicated to throwing harpoons in combat.

Who said anything about harpoon throwing existing in real life? I'm just pointing out a very clear demonstration of why your point is idiotic.

You're attaching realism to how prevalent a style is in real life martial arts. That's fine. Harpoon throwing has no basis. Great. Dual-wielding has virtually no basis in comparison to a million other fighting styles out there, all of which have greater practicality and are far easier to learn.

Basically, your argument sucks. I'd have some small measure of respect for your point if you were at least calling for Bioware to either remove dual-wielding altogether or redesign the animations to be accurate to its actual function, but then you might be making actual sense in that case. Dual-wielding in DA:O existed for the same "LOL awesome!" reasons as the harpoon does, for the same reason Rogue Ghost stealth exists, visual flair.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 août 2013 - 01:06 .

[mannitt]

Vilegrim wrote...

mannitt wrote...

I honestly don't get the hate for the harpoon. It's a flashy stun move in a fantasy game. Talking about realistic schools of sword play also confuses me. There's an entire culture of Hong Kong flicks and Japanese anime and live action, that is all about flashy weapon techniques. I feel like you're saying, do what Disney does. Analyse and get every detail down perfect. There's also a reason they closed down the 2D studio. It take a looonng time and it's expensive. I know that was a weird comparison, but wow, super realism in video games sounds boring as hell. Of course Scorpion was my second favorite character in all of MK, so maybe I also have a little bias to the idea.

Give me BW quality storytelling with Mount and Blade style combat?  Yes please! My Inquisitior, riding at the head of a warband  with his faithful companions leading units into war, the rogues using greek fire, smoke bombs, caltrops etc etc to sow discord and panic, maybe having done a mission the previous night to sabotage the enemy supplies, before either fighting as light infantry skirmishers or Archers, a solid core of plate armoured warriors advancing in line, banners snapping in the wind, armour gleaming, dazzlingly bright in the sun light, archers to the flanks, pouring vollies into the heart of the enemy line, the ground becoming slick and muddy with the blood of the fallen, the clash of blades and screams of the wounded echoig aroudn the field  and mages (who in this scenario basically act as field medics/artilery), either standing proud with their guards engaged in spell and counterspell duels, settign the air above the battle aflame, some spells breaking thru to strike down unlucky squads, or rushing with a cavalry detachment to provide aid and reinforcement to a weakening line and injured men    And that would be boring?

It's not what we are getting sadly, but that would be the dream.

That doesn't sound boring at all. It also sounds like more of a scene from a movie. It's too much for a game. I love any ancient/medieval battles as well. That also unfortunately is not as big of a genre. It's starting a push forward though.

Just the micro management involved in the scene sounds like it would surpass any 4x game. If there were any RTS elements in there, I'd be screwed. I suck at RTS.

[Vilegrim]

mannitt wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

mannitt wrote...

I honestly don't get the hate for the harpoon. It's a flashy stun move in a fantasy game. Talking about realistic schools of sword play also confuses me. There's an entire culture of Hong Kong flicks and Japanese anime and live action, that is all about flashy weapon techniques. I feel like you're saying, do what Disney does. Analyse and get every detail down perfect. There's also a reason they closed down the 2D studio. It take a looonng time and it's expensive. I know that was a weird comparison, but wow, super realism in video games sounds boring as hell. Of course Scorpion was my second favorite character in all of MK, so maybe I also have a little bias to the idea.

Give me BW quality storytelling with Mount and Blade style combat?  Yes please! My Inquisitior, riding at the head of a warband  with his faithful companions leading units into war, the rogues using greek fire, smoke bombs, caltrops etc etc to sow discord and panic, maybe having done a mission the previous night to sabotage the enemy supplies, before either fighting as light infantry skirmishers or Archers, a solid core of plate armoured warriors advancing in line, banners snapping in the wind, armour gleaming, dazzlingly bright in the sun light, archers to the flanks, pouring vollies into the heart of the enemy line, the ground becoming slick and muddy with the blood of the fallen, the clash of blades and screams of the wounded echoig aroudn the field  and mages (who in this scenario basically act as field medics/artilery), either standing proud with their guards engaged in spell and counterspell duels, settign the air above the battle aflame, some spells breaking thru to strike down unlucky squads, or rushing with a cavalry detachment to provide aid and reinforcement to a weakening line and injured men    And that would be boring?

It's not what we are getting sadly, but that would be the dream.

That doesn't sound boring at all. It also sounds like more of a scene from a movie. It's too much for a game. I love any ancient/medieval battles as well. That also unfortunately is not as big of a genre. It's starting a push forward though.

Just the micro management involved in the scene sounds like it would surpass any 4x game. If there were any RTS elements in there, I'd be screwed. I suck at RTS.

MP admittedly( well one side is), but on a 3 year old game, hundreds of toons on screen, fightin, dying, murdering each other, sweeping cavalry charges, arrow storms..the tech exists, game engines that can take it exist (and Frostbite in the BF games can deal with so much going on, over a large area so..)

Oh on the DW front, like I said, if by sacrificing it and replacing it with swashbuckling (tho why one school of rapier combat is fine when another isn't) is the price of not having harpoons fine, the reason I haven't commented on it at all, is that unless it flashed by in  second, we didn't see it., but if it goes fair enough, it for me was n't as much of a stretch as harpoons would be but w/e.  Hell using a 1h sword at all in late medieval combat (which as soon as you have plate armour, it is) is pure rule of cool, a guy in plate would laugh at a 1h (and wouldn't be that threatened by a 2h) Warhammers, military picks, polaxes, halbreds etc, those are weapons to threaten a dismounted knight, daggers are only any good for finishing off a wounded target, shortswords are useless, and arming swords are emergency fall back weapons if you loose your polearm.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 01:24 .

[leaguer of one]

Vilegrim wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Suspension of Disbelief, I can run with magic beign a thing, as long as it is internally conssitent, I can swallow the great man theory, it makes good stories.   What bugs me is an ability (throw a chain Skorpion style) tha basically says, our combat system is so badly designed that in order to make a class compettive we have to add an  ability that has never even been hinted at in the lore, in the previous games, or in the novels, and we believe that to make melee fighitn fun with have to make it AWESOME (which is exactly what was wrong with DA2) 

Why would they have to hint at the ability to throw a harpoon attached to a chain? It isn't anything magical. I can tie a rope to a javelin right now and throw it. Would it make a bit more sense as a grappling hook? Probably, but I don't mind the javelin at all. And even if it was some sort of super special skill, are you suggesting that Bioware cannot add to its own lore?

Personally, I appreciate the fact that Bioware is adding new enemy types that require different strategies to overcome. Attack everything until it dies is boring as hell.

If you can throw a harpoon at a guy hard enough that it sticks..guess what, no need to pull him in, he's dead, how about not having twitch based unthinking RARRRGGGGH at the heart of combat (the style that requires Mortal Kombay gimmicks in order to work), and make things intelligent, and realistic feeling, not AWESOME! RARRGGHHH! LOLSPEARLOL. BOOMO SPLAT WOW! 

This is a game series we hit people with swords and they don't instantly get choped to peices and where people servive lighting bolts strikes and being in the mouth of dragons.
You going on about harpoons should be an inta-kill?

[andar91]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

1) They should be mapped to buttons not taken up by other abilities. This is really a concern from a console peasant like myself, but we are only given access to six abilities on the gamepad - please don't limit them further by tying these dodge/twitch abilities to take even more of these limited spots (which, given that the B button was pressed, is a real concern for me).

Just my two cents.

In the video clip with Vivienne, she appears to have abilities mapped to the main buttons.

I'm curious to see how this will end up in the final game. I share your concern for controlling what's on the gamepad because space is so limited.

[leaguer of one]

Vilegrim.... I hope you understand you have not given one stable or valid argument against the harpoon.

[Fast Jimmy]

Vilegrim wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
interesting things
.

That 'barrel roll' video show WHY it is such a stupid idea, if the guy on his feet had any kind of weapon, the guy rolling around on the florr would have been so much mobile kebab after about 2 seconds.

setting up the entire party to run on A.I aounds interesting, more of an RTS mechanic almost, target selection and overall strategy rather than cast x at y at time z micro management. 

An RTS feel is kind of what I was visualizing as well. And if you just detach the camera from any one character (something that should be fairly easy if an isometric camera is brought back), then it wouldn't be all that difficutly to pull of technically, since all characters can run on AI tactics already.

Also, I'd like to point out that my suggestion could also allow for a lot of different "twitch" type abilities. 

The dodge and/or barrel roll concept I floated wouldn't be very effective for a fighter in heavy armor. But maybe another abilitiy might make more sense - like a Shield Block or a Parry move. And some moves might be better against some enemies versus others - maybe a Barrel Roll from a rogue might work equally well as a Parry from a fighter against the Rage Demon/Assassinate scenario, but against a charging Ogre, the Barrel Roll would be the best tactic bar-none, since the fighter could not effectively Parry a 10-ton hunk of darkspawn.

This way, you could design your character to be more in tune with your playstyle (if you want to barrel roll all of the time, then you'd need to sacrifice heavy armor and be more likely to take damage with a direct hit, for example). It could still be extremely strategic and tactical, but still also give those who crave action the ability to do more than shuffle and watch auto-attack.

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...
Oh on the DW front, like I said, if by sacrificing it and replacing it with swashbuckling (tho why one school of rapier combat is fine when another isn't) is the price of not having harpoons fine, the reason I haven't commented on it at all, is that unless it flashed by in  second, we didn't see it., but if it goes fair enough, it for me was n't as much of a stretch as harpoons would be but w/e.  Hell using a 1h sword at all in late medieval combat (which as soon as you have plate armour, it is) is pure rule of cool, a guy in plate would laugh at a 1h (and wouldn't be that threatened by a 2h) Warhammers, military picks, polaxes, halbreds etc, those are weapons to threaten a dismounted knight, daggers are only any good for finishing off a wounded target, shortswords are useless, and arming swords are emergency fall back weapons if you loose your polearm.

Did you know that lighting a knight on fire will kill him or her instantly, as all their flesh burns, their armour melts, and they just wail in a kind of horrible way until they collapse as a crisp? Or that freezing people alive generally kills them? 

How about the fact that a few arrows are good enough to kill someone? 

Becuase this obsession with ostensibly realistic two-handed combat is ignoring the fundamentals of an RPG.

[Vilegrim]

leaguer of one wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Suspension of Disbelief, I can run with magic beign a thing, as long as it is internally conssitent, I can swallow the great man theory, it makes good stories.   What bugs me is an ability (throw a chain Skorpion style) tha basically says, our combat system is so badly designed that in order to make a class compettive we have to add an  ability that has never even been hinted at in the lore, in the previous games, or in the novels, and we believe that to make melee fighitn fun with have to make it AWESOME (which is exactly what was wrong with DA2) 

Why would they have to hint at the ability to throw a harpoon attached to a chain? It isn't anything magical. I can tie a rope to a javelin right now and throw it. Would it make a bit more sense as a grappling hook? Probably, but I don't mind the javelin at all. And even if it was some sort of super special skill, are you suggesting that Bioware cannot add to its own lore?

Personally, I appreciate the fact that Bioware is adding new enemy types that require different strategies to overcome. Attack everything until it dies is boring as hell.

If you can throw a harpoon at a guy hard enough that it sticks..guess what, no need to pull him in, he's dead, how about not having twitch based unthinking RARRRGGGGH at the heart of combat (the style that requires Mortal Kombay gimmicks in order to work), and make things intelligent, and realistic feeling, not AWESOME! RARRGGHHH! LOLSPEARLOL. BOOMO SPLAT WOW! 

This is a game series we hit people with swords and they don't instantly get choped to peices and where people servive lighting bolts strikes and being in the mouth of dragons.
You going on about harpoons should be an inta-kill?

a man in armor isn't instakilled by a sword blow, thats the point of armour, in fact in the heavier armors 1hs are pretty muc h no threat.  Lightning bolt..hmm what voltage? Is it really electricty or just a manifestation that looks like it? That is the internal rulse of magic, they are consistent, so get a pass.  Being bitten by a dragon? Again, armor, how strong are those jaws really? How much pressure in the bite?  Again, magic, because that is what demons and dragons run on, internally consistent, gets a pass,

Find me a game where the fighting techniques shown from about 1-3 minutes are used (hint the I TAKE A HUGE SWING merchant would go home with his head and teeth in two seperate bags) and I will be a really happy man.

[Am1vf]

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
Oh on the DW front, like I said, if by sacrificing it and replacing it with swashbuckling (tho why one school of rapier combat is fine when another isn't) is the price of not having harpoons fine, the reason I haven't commented on it at all, is that unless it flashed by in  second, we didn't see it., but if it goes fair enough, it for me was n't as much of a stretch as harpoons would be but w/e.  Hell using a 1h sword at all in late medieval combat (which as soon as you have plate armour, it is) is pure rule of cool, a guy in plate would laugh at a 1h (and wouldn't be that threatened by a 2h) Warhammers, military picks, polaxes, halbreds etc, those are weapons to threaten a dismounted knight, daggers are only any good for finishing off a wounded target, shortswords are useless, and arming swords are emergency fall back weapons if you loose your polearm.

Did you know that lighting a knight on fire will kill him or her instantly, as all their flesh burns, their armour melts, and they just wail in a kind of horrible way until they collapse as a crisp? Or that freezing people alive generally kills them? 

How about the fact that a few arrows are good enough to kill someone? 

Becuase this obsession with ostensibly realistic two-handed combat is ignoring the fundamentals of an RPG.

I would like that too. In fact one arrow is enough to kill a person if it hits right. I would like to play a game like that, doesn't mean it has to be Dragon Age.

EDIT:

Vilegrim wrote...
(...)
  Find me a game where the fighting techniques shown from about 1-3 minutes are used (hint the I TAKE A HUGE SWING merchant would go home with his head and teeth in two seperate bags) and I will be a really happy man. 

Actually, what I said before is an understatement. I would LOVE to se a fantasy game with combat that resembles that, and there is definetly a "lack" in whar videogames are offering in this regard that a game deveoper would be wise to take advantage of. Still doesn't necessarily have to be BioWare... but it would be nice.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 18 août 2013 - 01:41 .

[Vilegrim]

leaguer of one wrote...

Vilegrim.... I hope you understand you have not given one stable or valid argument against the harpoon.

How about: it  is a showy hollywood miscarriage of an idea, and damages suspension of disbelief?

Am1_vf wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
Oh
on the DW front, like I said, if by sacrificing it and replacing it
with swashbuckling (tho why one school of rapier combat is fine when
another isn't) is the price of not having harpoons fine, the reason I
haven't commented on it at all, is that unless it flashed by in  second,
we didn't see it., but if it goes fair enough, it for me was n't as
much of a stretch as harpoons would be but w/e.  Hell using a 1h sword
at all in late medieval combat (which as soon as you have plate armour,
it is) is pure rule of cool, a guy in plate would laugh at a 1h (and
wouldn't be that threatened by a 2h) Warhammers, military picks,
polaxes, halbreds etc, those are weapons to threaten a dismounted
knight, daggers are only any good for finishing off a wounded target,
shortswords are useless, and arming swords are emergency fall back
weapons if you loose your polearm.

Did you know
that lighting a knight on fire will kill him or her instantly, as all
their flesh burns, their armour melts, and they just wail in a kind of
horrible way until they collapse as a crisp? Or that freezing people
alive generally kills them? 

How about the fact that a few arrows are good enough to kill someone? 

Becuase this obsession with ostensibly realistic two-handed combat is ignoring the fundamentals of an RPG.

I
would like that too. In fact one arrow is enough to kill a person if it
hits right. I would like to play a game like that, doesn't mean it has
to be Dragon Age.

See my earlier comment about consistent rules of magic, (And as an aside, if as it appears, cassandra et al are wearing leather under armour, they are taking precaustions against that very outcome, placing a liquid and heat resistant layer between their flesh and the oil/magic-that-resembles-fire) You are right about bows however, they should be very binary, light bows should be ignorable unless they hit the eye slot, where as English Longs should be terrifying inside 30-40 ft, and a real issue out to 200 or so yeards.

The game you are looking for for instajnt death arrows is War of the Roses, a superb game by the makers of mount and blade, a real shame it is multiplayer only. The decisions you make, visor up for increased stamina and visibility, or visor down as anti face shot protection (which also awesomly limits your vision), weapon choices, getting tactics right etc etc, superb game, bolt a decent single player story on and I'd be in heaven.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 01:45 .

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Vilegrim.... I hope you understand you have not given one stable or valid argument against the harpoon.

How about: it  is a showy hollywood miscarriage of an idea, and damages suspension of disbelief?

Like when a flying reptile breathes fire and is somehow aerodynamic despite it being a blatant violation of all our physical laws? 

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Vilegrim.... I hope you understand you have not given one stable or valid argument against the harpoon.

How about: it  is a showy hollywood miscarriage of an idea, and damages suspension of disbelief?

Like when a flying reptile breathes fire and is somehow aerodynamic despite it being a blatant violation of all our physical laws? 

I, honestly, see much of combat as a huge abstraction and conceit and the use of cartoony-weapons and moves, while not at all to my tastes, acts so those who do not see them as an abstraction something to occupy their brains. 

That being said, one lack of consistency (the aerodynamic nature of dragons) is not an invitation to throw any attempt out the window. I'm not a big "realism" stickler, but I don't think one (or even multiple) area(s) of suspended disbelief is an open market for a completely unrealistic setting.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 août 2013 - 01:44 .