883 réponses à ce sujet

[Am1vf]

Il Divo wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

"The laws of physics don't exist in DA as they do here"
Fair enough, how do the laws of phisics work in Thedas then? If there is lower gravity (because more gavitons scape to the fade or something) and momentum doesn't exist, I can deal with that, but we don't have much reason to belive it is so.

I think a better way of putting is that there are certain laws of physics which DA simply doesn't care about.

But since they typically only affect gameplay and don't drive the narrative, they're not regarded as huge problems when certain rules are broken for certain "rule of cool" combat-related effects.

While DA:O did not establish a harpoon move, it did establish multiple instances where the laws of physics were broken/defied for visual flair (again, implementation of dual wielding and warrior shouts and rogue stealth being prime examples). I don't think the Developers should necessarily refer to whatever laws they establish in DA:O regarding combat effectiveness. Anything of similar physics-breaking implementation isn't outrageous. Hence, if I can believe a warrior being tossed about like a rag doll by a dragon and still getting up, I can buy a harpoon mechanic.

I don't see how the harpoon in cool tbh , I dislike it mainly because the move shown in the video seemed lame to me, but that's just personal taste I suppose. 

I metioned that I don't think DAI has to have this based in reality type of things, but still it is something there isn't enough of in gameing and I think game developers in general would be wise to use to their advantage. It's weird that Berserk manages to do it and people still use "anime" as the insult to define their issues with DA2.

[Vilegrim]

Il Divo wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

"The laws of physics don't exist in DA as they do here"
Fair enough, how do the laws of phisics work in Thedas then? If there is lower gravity (because more gavitons scape to the fade or something) and momentum doesn't exist, I can deal with that, but we don't have much reason to belive it is so.

I think a better way of putting is that there are certain laws of physics which DA simply doesn't care about.

But since they typically only affect gameplay and don't drive the narrative, they're not regarded as huge problems when certain rules are broken for certain "rule of cool" combat-related effects.

While DA:O did not establish a harpoon move, it did establish multiple instances where the laws of physics were broken/defied for visual flair (again, implementation of dual wielding and warrior shouts and rogue stealth being prime examples). I don't think the Developers should necessarily refer to whatever laws they establish in DA:O regarding combat effectiveness. Anything of similar physics-breaking implementation isn't outrageous. Hence, if I can believe a warrior being tossed about like a rag doll by a dragon and still getting up, I can buy a harpoon mechanic.

I didn't like the shouts either...to the extent of not uising them at all.  DW I gave a 'badly done animation of a juystifiable style idea' and always used either 2 short weapons or a long and shirt (which was savagly effective for some reason), like I say, they tried twitch based higher fantasy, and every review that doesn't rely on EA for cash slammed them, the fans slammed them..so lets go the other way, towards a more GoT setting, we can't put magic back in the bottle, but we can reinstitute physics, (and before you say it, the way he talked about that harpoon made it sound integral, like giving up the ability to use you left arm)

The 'threat auras' I could mentally hand wave as 'calling his mum nasty names and looking like a loon' 

In Exile wrote...



You mean the part were we climb a
tower and fight the dragon and then evetually kill it by riding on its
back? Because that's what happened in TW2. 

Where you, as a alchemically and magically enhanced super human (all explained and justified in universe with side affects, draw backs, merits, flaws etc, etc) while dosed up on alchemical (hence magical) protections can survive what..1 glancing hit? Maybe 2? 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 03:25 .

[Il Divo]

Am1_vf wrote...
I don't see how the harpoon in cool tbh , I dislike it mainly because the move shown in the video seemed lame to me, but that's just personal taste I suppose. 

Well, that's the problem with anything appealing to rule of cool; there's no guarantee that what is put forth will in fact be considered cool, but that goes for a lot of moments. I thought Riordan attempting to leap onto the Archdemon's back was utterly insane, but then I'm sure others thought it was awesome.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Vilegrim, you have basically no arguments beyond tired cliches, arbitrary differences and ''witty'' capslock sillyness. Don't like it, don't use the ability or don't buy the game. Bioware doesn't design games around your preferences alone.

[In Exile]

Il Divo wrote...

Well, that's the problem with anything appealing to rule of cool; there's no guarantee that what is put forth will in fact be considered cool, but that goes for a lot of moments. I thought Riordan attempting to leap onto the Archdemon's back was utterly insane, but then I'm sure others thought it was awesome.

It was hilarious. I couldn't stop laughing. His entire plan was like trying to deflect a bullet with another bullet. 

[Vilegrim]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Vilegrim, you have basically no arguments beyond tired cliches, arbitrary differences and ''witty'' capslock sillyness. Don't like it, don't use the ability or don't buy the game. Bioware doesn't design games around your preferences alone.

thank you for this insiteful and enlighening post oh great master of taste and deceny...
I shall take my inferior idiotic self from thy imperial majestic presence at once, oh master.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 03:31 .

[Il Divo]

Vilegrim wrote...

I didn't like the shouts either...to the extent of not uising them at all.  DW I gave a 'badly done animation of a juystifiable style idea' and always used either 2 short weapons or a long and shirt (which was savagly effective for some reason), like I say, they tried twitch based higher fantasy, and every review that doesn't rely on EA for cash slammed them, the fans slammed them..so lets go the other way, towards a more GoT setting, we can't put magic back in the bottle, but we can reinstitute physics, (and before you say it, the way he talked about that harpoon made it sound integral, like giving up the ability to use you left arm)

The 'threat auras' I could mentally hand wave as 'calling his mum nasty names and looking like a loon' 

While the extent you are willing to go to in order to avoid these anti-realistic animations is understandable, it still comes down to mental handwaves, which aren't really a great appeal to the realism of the setting.

I'm not saying anyone has to like the design of the harpoon, but its implementation is not out of line with either DA:O's approach or DA2's, regarding non-sensical abilities. Your response above and your approach to the Dragon Fights are alone demonstrations of where Bioware's focus is; you're making active efforts simply to avoid the realism-breaking features, as opposed to them never existing from the start.

[Am1vf]

Il Divo wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
I don't see how the harpoon in cool tbh , I dislike it mainly because the move shown in the video seemed lame to me, but that's just personal taste I suppose. 

Well, that's the problem with anything appealing to rule of cool; there's no guarantee that what is put forth will in fact be considered cool, but that goes for a lot of moments. I thought Riordan attempting to leap onto the Archdemon's back was utterly insane, but then I'm sure others thought it was awesome.

To be fair, it worked accordingly.

It's just that everyone in the game industry seems to be going for the more "cool and awesome" and imho not enough are trying to learn anything from the fascinating history of the human race. I'm not saying everyone has to do it, and I repeatedly said that BioWare doesn't have to do it. But it's sad that almost no one does.

[Vilegrim]

Il Divo wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

I didn't like the shouts either...to the extent of not uising them at all.  DW I gave a 'badly done animation of a juystifiable style idea' and always used either 2 short weapons or a long and shirt (which was savagly effective for some reason), like I say, they tried twitch based higher fantasy, and every review that doesn't rely on EA for cash slammed them, the fans slammed them..so lets go the other way, towards a more GoT setting, we can't put magic back in the bottle, but we can reinstitute physics, (and before you say it, the way he talked about that harpoon made it sound integral, like giving up the ability to use you left arm)

The 'threat auras' I could mentally hand wave as 'calling his mum nasty names and looking like a loon' 

While the extent you are willing to go to in order to avoid these anti-realistic animations is understandable, it still comes down to mental handwaves, which aren't really a great appeal to the realism of the setting.

I'm not saying anyone has to like the design of the harpoon, but its implementation is not out of line with either DA:O's approach or DA2's, regarding non-sensical abilities. Your response above and your approach to the Dragon Fights are alone demonstrations of where Bioware's focus is; you're making active efforts simply to avoid the realism-breaking features, as opposed to them never existing from the start.

DA2 is my perfect example of what I hate in the modern approach to RPGs..so yea, anythibng from it is tainted until proven ok. (I find the term action-rpg oxymoronic for example, but will let it pass for one very specific franchise, that is the Witcher it's settings and story are strong enough for me to put up with action gameplay in my RPG, DA...sorry, but honestly, no it isn't.

The more automation of charcters, in combat, the more back seat grand strategy I am, the more realistic the movements of people fighting the happier I am.  The ultimate Rule Of Cool?  Well I have seen nothing in a video game that tops the real fights of WMA practioners. AS I said Earlier UFC beats WWE, and DA2 was pure WWE.

[In Exile]

Am1_vf wrote...
It's just that everyone in the game industry seems to be going for the more "cool and awesome" and imho not enough are trying to learn anything from the fascinating history of the human race. I'm not saying everyone has to do it, and I repeatedly said that BioWare doesn't have to do it. But it's sad that almost no one does.

Games have no choice but to be cool and awesome. Realistic combat doesn't work in a game that doesn't have realistic damage. 

IRL, bowmen were incredibly dangerous because they rained death from above. In games, bowmen useless because they can't 1 hit-KO, and otherwise have to get insane multi-target abilities to make up for it. 

[Am1vf]

In Exile wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
It's just that everyone in the game industry seems to be going for the more "cool and awesome" and imho not enough are trying to learn anything from the fascinating history of the human race. I'm not saying everyone has to do it, and I repeatedly said that BioWare doesn't have to do it. But it's sad that almost no one does.

Games have no choice but to be cool and awesome. Realistic combat doesn't work in a game that doesn't have realistic damage. 

IRL, bowmen were incredibly dangerous because they rained death from above. In games, bowmen useless because they can't 1 hit-KO, and otherwise have to get insane multi-target abilities to make up for it. 

Are you sure about that? because it doesn't sound right to me.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 18 août 2013 - 03:45 .

[In Exile]

Am1_vf wrote...
Are you sure about that? because it doesn't sound right to me.

I'm missing the air quotes. I just mean that there's no way to do realistic combat and actually have an RPG, because the reality of combat is that you don't get 1 person engines of death that survive millions of encounters and kill thousands of people. 

Even someone like Audie Murphy doesn't singlehandedly win a war. 

[Il Divo]

Am1_vf wrote...

To be fair, it worked accordingly.

It's just that everyone in the game industry seems to be going for the more "cool and awesome" and imho not enough are trying to learn anything from the fascinating history of the human race. I'm not saying everyone has to do it, and I repeatedly said that BioWare doesn't have to do it. But it's sad that almost no one does.

Sure, but if people wanted realistic combat (as much as is possible) they'd be going for that instead. Bioware has never done realistic combat, just some games are more flashy than others (Jade Empire, DA2, etc).

That's what accounts for this misconception that DA:O was somehow realistic. Realistic doesn't inherently mean bland combat animations, which is what fuels DA:O pretty heavily.

The game with the most satisfying gameplay animations I've ever played is Dark Souls followed by Assassin's Creed and I'd say both are very far from realistic. Weapons however clearly have weight and that does a great job of conveying how much pain your opponent actually is in when you crush his leg, stab him in the throat, etc.  

[Am1vf]

In Exile wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
Are you sure about that? because it doesn't sound right to me.

I'm missing the air quotes. I just mean that there's no way to do realistic combat and actually have an RPG, because the reality of combat is that you don't get 1 person engines of death that survive millions of encounters and kill thousands of people. 

Even someone like Audie Murphy doesn't singlehandedly win a war. 

Can we have an RPG without 1 person engines of death that survive millions of encounters and kill thousands of people? Because I would totally play that.

Il Divo wrote...
Sure, but if people wanted realistic combat (as much as is possible) they'd be going for that instead. Bioware has never done realistic combat, just some games are more flashy than others (Jade Empire, DA2, etc).
 

I think kickstarters are proving that, what developers do isn't necessarily what people want.

That's what accounts for this misconception that DA:O was somehow realistic. Realistic doesn't inherently mean bland combat animations, which is what fuels DA:O pretty heavily. 
 

I never thought DAO was realistic, and never said I want Inquisition to be realistic. But it would be nice if BioWare looked for historical solutions to situations like the shield guy instead of making up weird handhel battle harpoons.

The game with the most satisfying gameplay animations I've ever played is Dark Souls followed by Assassin's Creed and I'd say both are very far from realistic. Weapons however clearly have weight and that does a great job of conveying how much pain your opponent actually is in when you crush his leg, stab him in the throat, etc.  

I would like DAI inquisition to learn from Assasssins Creed combat animations, it isn't "real"either, but it looks much better than Dragon Age Origins. I don't know about Dark Souls, the port to PC was a mess

Modifié par Am1_vf, 18 août 2013 - 03:59 .

[Vilegrim]

In Exile wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
Are you sure about that? because it doesn't sound right to me.

I'm missing the air quotes. I just mean that there's no way to do realistic combat and actually have an RPG, because the reality of combat is that you don't get 1 person engines of death that survive millions of encounters and kill thousands of people. 

Even someone like Audie Murphy doesn't singlehandedly win a war. 

True, but you can get as close as possible, so at least make people move right, the more over blown things get (for no good reason) the more suspension of disbelief, and thus enjoyment suffer, admittedly for me.

Am1_vf wrote...

Can we have an RPG without 1 person engines of death that survive millions of encounters and kill thousands of people? Because I would totally play that.

Mount and Blade and hope for a decent sequel, wit ha better story line.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 août 2013 - 03:57 .

[Am1vf]

Vilegrim wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Can we have an RPG without 1 person engines of death that survive millions of encounters and kill thousands of people? Because I would totally play that.

Mount and Blade and hope for a decent sequel, wit ha better story line.

Exactly how I feel.

[Ianamus]

Am1_vf wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
It's just that everyone in the game industry seems to be going for the more "cool and awesome" and imho not enough are trying to learn anything from the fascinating history of the human race. I'm not saying everyone has to do it, and I repeatedly said that BioWare doesn't have to do it. But it's sad that almost no one does.

Games have no choice but to be cool and awesome. Realistic combat doesn't work in a game that doesn't have realistic damage. 

IRL, bowmen were incredibly dangerous because they rained death from above. In games, bowmen useless because they can't 1 hit-KO, and otherwise have to get insane multi-target abilities to make up for it. 

Are you sure about that? because it doesn't sound right to me.

I wouldn't want to play a game with realistic combat. Your characters life expectancy would be five minutes and probably end in an incredibly gruesome way that involved being driven to crawling across the battlefiled by your elbows until an enemy finally put you out of your misery. 

[MichaelStuart]

I like what I'm seeing. Just hope attack success isn't determined by dice rolling.

[Am1vf]

EJ107 wrote...

I wouldn't want to play a game with realistic combat. Your characters life expectancy would be five minutes and probably end in an incredibly gruesome way that involved being driven to crawling across the battlefiled by your elbows until an enemy finally put you out of your misery. 

Or you could be careful and direct the battle from somewhere that isn't the frontlines. Not every fight has to be a battle either, one thing that bothers me about the Dragon Age series is how every gang of thughs has to be a huge army of highly specialized commandos, because it's the only way they can be a threat to our superman.

[nihiliste]

It's hard to see much of anything at this stage and I'm sure there's a lot of things subject to change, but here are some of my thoughts.

- I liked the talk about new creatures, with different attributes/abilities/maybe resistances. This is something that has never truly made a significant difference in Dragon Age in my experience when compared with older RPGs and I really hope they implement it to the extent that you really have to think about what the best way is to attack each enemy or each formation, at least on harder difficulties.

- I'm looking forward to seeing the new mechanics that Frostbite allows and hope they're implemented well. It would be fantastic to use the environment more to our advantage in combat.

- I'm not too worried that we didn't see party based combat yet because it's probably just not ready. Especially when you're watching a warrior - when has playing a warrior been tactically interesting in ANY of these CRPGs, including Origins, BG2, etc? The tactical aspect will come in through the control of different party members and the interplay of classes for damage/crowd control/support/healing.

- I am concerned that the combat is going to be pretty action-y but at this point that's a clear direction of the franchise and I'm not holding out hope for anything different. And to be honest, I can understand why when you have a massive console market and are releasing a big budget, mainstream game like this you need to have that type of combat. It disappoints me because it in my mind reduces the role of a lot of the traditional RPG elements but I think you have to take a game for what it is and there's no point hoping that Bioware is going to go back in time.

- The one thing that really, really bothers me is that I'm pretty sure we're not going to get an isometric camera. That's something they've been noncommittal about all along and I remember a lot of talk about how level design was a big reason for why they took that view out of DA2. To me, the 3rd person over the shoulder view is completely ineffective when it comes to controlling a full party and examining the position and nature of enemies on the field. It's frustrating to work with and I hope to god they find a way to implement the isometric view, or at the very very least a partial zoom out. If it's all going to be from the viewpoint shown in the video that will be a problem and I probably won't purchase the game until enough time has passed that the price comes way down.

- I'm sure they'll work it out but at this stage things look a little clunky/awkward. The walking speed of the players during a couple of the clips looked like they were skating through molasses and the character models were huge relative to the environment shown on screen. Also, if that mage was Vivienne I hope to god there's a way to make her head look less ridiculous.

[Sanunes]

Am1_vf wrote...
I think kickstarters are proving that, what developers do isn't necessarily what people want.
 

Of course, but its not about pleasing everyone.  Its about pleasing a large enough market to recoup the cost of the game and to make a profit.  With Kickstarter I am interested to see how many people are going to buy Project Eternity and Wasteland 2 after they are released because from what I have noticed (purely subjective) Shadowrun Returns hasn't been a huge success outside of crowdfunding.

There is also the bickering on the Project Eternity boards that are similar to this very thread where mechanics are being debated (its been a long time since I was there so it might not be as bad now), so that means that people still aren't happy with Project Eternity because its still not exacty what each person wants either.

[Vilegrim]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I like what I'm seeing. Just hope attack success isn't determined by dice rolling.

where as I hope the exact opposite, which guarantess one of us disappointment I guess.

[nihiliste]

Sanunes wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
I think kickstarters are proving that, what developers do isn't necessarily what people want.
 

Of course, but its not about pleasing everyone.  Its about pleasing a large enough market to recoup the cost of the game and to make a profit.  With Kickstarter I am interested to see how many people are going to buy Project Eternity and Wasteland 2 after they are released because from what I have noticed (purely subjective) Shadowrun Returns hasn't been a huge success outside of crowdfunding.

There is also the bickering on the Project Eternity boards that are similar to this very thread where mechanics are being debated (its been a long time since I was there so it might not be as bad now), so that means that people still aren't happy with Project Eternity because its still not exacty what each person wants either.

This.  Even with Eternity people are really up in arms about how Sawyer is "watering down" the RPG mechanics by taking influence from 4th edition D&D.  You really can never please anyone.

To me Dragon Age's problem is not that the combat has gotten more actiony, but more that there's not enough variety to throw continuosly new challenges at the player and I think that's a resource and lore problem more than anything.  There isn't a big enough bestiary, and within that bestiary the creatures don't have enough unique features, and with a limit of 4 party members + 3 base classes there isn't as much room for specialization of roles.  Everything in Dragon Age from a mundane bandit to a pride demon can be hacked at with a random sword until its dead - this is a big difference from BG2 for example where you would have to plan completely different weapons and tactics and sometimes protective armor for different encounters.  This would range from something as small as "trolls can only be killed with fire or acid" to the dramatically different strategies used to face vampires, beholders, illithid, and liches for some examples. That level of encounter planning and inventory management is something I think is safe to say should never be expected to be present in a Dragon Age game.  I mean seriously compare trying to clear the mind flayer dungeon in the underdark with the kind of stuff we're hearing for DA:I - "this guy has a big shield and you have to try to move around him" kind of thing.  And to be fair, while there are a lot of us who love that old school RPG encounter design, it is understandable to me that for a big market game like this they want something more viscerally engaging.

[leaguer of one]

Vilegrim wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Suspension of Disbelief, I can run with magic beign a thing, as long as it is internally conssitent, I can swallow the great man theory, it makes good stories.   What bugs me is an ability (throw a chain Skorpion style) tha basically says, our combat system is so badly designed that in order to make a class compettive we have to add an  ability that has never even been hinted at in the lore, in the previous games, or in the novels, and we believe that to make melee fighitn fun with have to make it AWESOME (which is exactly what was wrong with DA2) 

Why would they have to hint at the ability to throw a harpoon attached to a chain? It isn't anything magical. I can tie a rope to a javelin right now and throw it. Would it make a bit more sense as a grappling hook? Probably, but I don't mind the javelin at all. And even if it was some sort of super special skill, are you suggesting that Bioware cannot add to its own lore?

Personally, I appreciate the fact that Bioware is adding new enemy types that require different strategies to overcome. Attack everything until it dies is boring as hell.

If you can throw a harpoon at a guy hard enough that it sticks..guess what, no need to pull him in, he's dead, how about not having twitch based unthinking RARRRGGGGH at the heart of combat (the style that requires Mortal Kombay gimmicks in order to work), and make things intelligent, and realistic feeling, not AWESOME! RARRGGHHH! LOLSPEARLOL. BOOMO SPLAT WOW! 

This is a game series we hit people with swords and they don't instantly get choped to peices and where people servive lighting bolts strikes and being in the mouth of dragons.
You going on about harpoons should be an inta-kill?

a man in armor isn't instakilled by a sword blow, thats the point of armour, in fact in the heavier armors 1hs are pretty muc h no threat.  Lightning bolt..hmm what voltage? Is it really electricty or just a manifestation that looks like it? That is the internal rulse of magic, they are consistent, so get a pass.  Being bitten by a dragon? Again, armor, how strong are those jaws really? How much pressure in the bite?  Again, magic, because that is what demons and dragons run on, internally consistent, gets a pass,

Find me a game where the fighting techniques shown from about 1-3 minutes are used (hint the I TAKE A HUGE SWING merchant would go home with his head and teeth in two seperate bags) and I will be a really happy man.

1.Not everyone in the game where's metel armor and piercing weapons get through. 
2. It's a Lighting bolt hittimg guy's wearing metal.
3.It's a highdragon. It matter not how strong the armor is. In fact when we killed the one in DAO,  2 Armor was in it  gullet.(Including, bows, and a dog collor...Man that last party got unlucky.)

4. There's a game on steam with it.