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Pre Alpha Combat Mechanics:


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#701
In Exile

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sickpixie wrote...
Morrigan and Wynne have conflicting personalities and night and day reactions to your decisions. I suppose you could be role playing someone who enjoys inter-party drama, or someone who prefers the company of mages to non-mages, but it seems to me as though your primary motivation is making the combat easier.


Actually, I roleplay someone who wants to stop the blight. And setting the blight on fire seems to be a much more expedient way than trying to kill it with sharp pieces of metal. As Ducan explains in the DA:O Mage origin, mages are essential to defeating the darkspawn.


It's unlikely someone would want to role play an incompetent warrior. One could role play a mage-hating warrior who tells Morrigan to take a hike and slaughters Wynne and the entire circle. Fortunately there are traps, poisons, bombs, and other consumables to make this character concept viable.

"Comically sub-optimal" is munchkin talk.


That doesn't make the game tactical. There's a distinction between the way the combat system works and RP. In DA:O's case, the combat isn't tactical, and it's only midly challenging if you intentionally gimp yourself. 


It's telling how you said "three mages" instead of "up to three mages." As if the idea of not being a mage is unthinkable.


If we're going to pretend that DA:O involves "tactics", then we should talk about how one would approach the encounter aiming to destroy it. 

IRL, tactics aren't giving your troops a bunch of spears and seeing if you can defeat a tank division because your commander has an irrational fear of fossil fuels. 

#702
In Exile

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Filament wrote...

I'm not sure a character in-game is going to really understand as we do, which combination of spells to learn and how to use them to maximize their gameplay potential. I like to choose spells that fit a certain theme I have in my head about the character, the kind of spells they would choose. And being that I played 3 or 4 mage PCs in about 10 playthroughs, if I just chose the same set of talents every time for my PCs or companions it would have gotten awfully dull.


My characters, in DA:O, want to kill the darkspawn. There's no more complex rhyme to my spell choices that "will this kill darkspawn?". It just so happens that direct damage spells are so unbelievably overwhelming that there's no purpose to even picking something else, which funny enough is the closest thing that DA:O gets to realism. 

#703
Guest_Puddi III_*

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There are a lot of ways to kill your enemies, and any one individual might think a different way is the best way. Maybe they're not all right, but they don't have perfect information like you do and their goals may not be as shrewd. But many of them are "right enough" to kill the archdemon just as well, and each variation does have the capacity to change which tactical approach is best for any given situation.

#704
karushna5

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I don't know if the devs are still reading these, but a huge problem for my friend in DA:O was that console did not have a tactical ceiling angle to tell others what to do, and was a huge reason he could not get into the game at all. It was hard for him to make use of tactics in dragon age origins due to the angle, and kept wanting to be aple to look down on the characters to make use of it

#705
Sylvius the Mad

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In Exile wrote...

That doesn't make the game tactical.

Making the game tactically challenging and offering tactical options are two very different things.

I suspect many of us are talking past each other.

#706
slimgrin

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't make the game tactical.

Making the game tactically challenging and offering tactical options are two very different things.

I suspect many of us are talking past each other.


Offering more tactical challenges makes it more tactically challenging...I think.

Not that DA has ever been that tactical to begin with.

#707
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't make the game tactical.

Making the game tactically challenging and offering tactical options are two very different things.

I suspect many of us are talking past each other.


Ask not what Tactics can do for you, but what YOU can do for Tactics...?

#708
Maria Caliban

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't make the game tactical.

Making the game tactically challenging and offering tactical options are two very different things.

I suspect many of us are talking past each other.

Right. In the Witcher 2, you had a number of potions and spells you could use for combat.

But why do that when the majority of fights could be won by rolling around on the ground, occasionally springing up to hit enemies with a sword, and rolling some more?

#709
HiroVoid

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That didn't really work for me in Witcher 2 on Dark mode since I suppose I wasn't skilled enough at rolling around. I usually combined it with the shield Ard(I believe that's what they were called), and after a certain amount of time, bought a lot of throwing knives and explosives.

#710
slimgrin

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't make the game tactical.

Making the game tactically challenging and offering tactical options are two very different things.

I suspect many of us are talking past each other.

Right. In the Witcher 2, you had a number of potions and spells you could use for combat.

But why do that when the majority of fights could be won by rolling around on the ground, occasionally springing up to hit enemies with a sword, and rolling some more?


Edit- went a bit too far. :P

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 août 2013 - 12:38 .


#711
Sylvius the Mad

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slimgrin wrote...

Offering more tactical challenges makes it more tactically challenging...I think.

That the game might not offer sufficient challenge to require using a variety of tactics doesn't change that those tactics exist as viable options.

There are many different ways to build a party in DAO, and many of those parties will be successful.  If your only objective is to make the party as effective as possible, then yes, there's no need to employ a variety of tactical options, and for that player the existence of those options is immaterial.

But not all players are like that.

I actually don't have enough experience with DA2 to address the full range of tactical options it offered, but I do know that it didn't offer many of the options that DAO did.

#712
Monica83

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not even mentioning that beside the easy mode in the witcher 2 even in hard difficulty ennemy tend to surround you trap you and and eviscerate you with some blows..... The witcher 2 can't be played like a mindle buttonmashing because the game will end to punish you hard..

#713
kinderschlager

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not one david gaider post? what sort of blood magic is this?!?!

#714
Fredward

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slimgrin wrote...
Because you wanted to play like a p*ssy?


Deriding the most effective choice because of some warped sense of masculinity... tut, tut that doesn't sound like a tactical decision at all.

#715
leaguer of one

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Terrain is meaningless in DA:O when you have mages.

As it should be.  Mages are awesome.

leaguer of one wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There are issues with how the targeting system is working right now, and it's a bit more accented because at this time you can use abilities (any of them) without a valid target.

That's a good feature.  Keep that in.

What Sylvius said.
Any skill.
Anywhere.
Anytime.
*Shield bashes the Grand Cleric*

This is not bulder's gate.

I am not asking it to be.  I'm not saying anyone should be abkle to be hit by these abilities.  Untargettable enemies should probably be immune to these attacks, regardless of how they're employed.

But being able to target any location, even if there's not a valid enemy there, could come it really handy under some circumstances.

No my point. It's a heavily story based game. It would be a conflit of intreast. It not as open world as bg.

#716
fchopin

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Monica83 wrote...

not even mentioning that beside the easy mode in the witcher 2 even in hard difficulty ennemy tend to surround you trap you and and eviscerate you with some blows..... The witcher 2 can't be played like a mindle buttonmashing because the game will end to punish you hard..



Sorry but you can play the game without taking potions, it is very easy.
The only time i took potions was in caves when it was dark.

#717
RedWulfi

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I love how people speculate that what was shown is all we get.

#718
FedericoV

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AndersIsLush wrote...

I love how people speculate that what was shown is all we get.


Well, they have choose to show this. There's not a lot else we can discuss :)

#719
Guest_Jayne126_*

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Looking at it again, it clearly shows a "targeting mode". I'm not really sure if the movements on the controller are legit (I'll just say yes) but there is a lot more of button pushing involved. I think he also uses the trigger on the controller to attack but I'm not sure on that one.

Yeah, looks like an action game. At least on that vid.

#720
Vilegrim

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ARTHURIUSS wrote...

Rather than me boring you people by waxing eloquent on the subject, you should really check out the comment section in this PC gamer article-

http://www.pcgamer.c...gameplay-video/

While there are a fair amount of prejudiced and biased statements, I believe it is a succinct representation of the underlying frustration amongst the disgruntled PC fan base. I do not presume to speak for all of them but most of them seem to yearn for the isometric view and a return to the more tactical roots of the franchise.However, the pre-alpha footage seems to have only reinforced their fears that the game is moving further away from what they wanted.



Agreed ,those comments nail it. Exactly right aboutr mixing DA;O and DA2.. you simpoly can't, either keep DA2 deroy faceroll mindlessness, or bring back the isometric style of Origins, the two do not mix.   If any thing, thsi looks more DERP action game than DA2. 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 19 août 2013 - 01:45 .


#721
shinobi602

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Its just baffling that they went on about party focused tactics and strategy, then didn't show any.

You don't know whether its a hopeful sign or a very bad one.

The only thing we have to go off of is a God of War style chain throwing and a W2/Kingdoms of Amular style 1 v 1.


I'm curious who cut the video, since I found that surprising as well.


No offense meant here Allan, but shouldn't you guys check what will get covered by Game Informer and what footage will be released and how it will be released? Isn't that the point of Quality Assurance? You may chalk this up to "fans overreacting again, nothing new" etc, but for instance many, many on NeoGAF for example have already dismissed this simply because of the mixed messaging of this video.

Almost every other post there is "So they're talking about tactics and XCOM and DAO but showing me the opposite". I'm not trying to hassle you, just would like your input here...

#722
Vilegrim

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shinobi602 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Its just baffling that they went on about party focused tactics and strategy, then didn't show any.

You don't know whether its a hopeful sign or a very bad one.

The only thing we have to go off of is a God of War style chain throwing and a W2/Kingdoms of Amular style 1 v 1.


I'm curious who cut the video, since I found that surprising as well.


No offense meant here Allan, but shouldn't you guys check what will get covered by Game Informer and what footage will be released and how it will be released? Isn't that the point of Quality Assurance? You may chalk this up to "fans overreacting again, nothing new" etc, but for instance many, many on NeoGAF for example have already dismissed this simply because of the mixed messaging of this video.

Almost every other post there is "So they're talking about tactics and XCOM and DAO but showing me the opposite". I'm not trying to hassle you, just would like your input here...


Hopefully they have enough time to bin this action game theyhave shown us , and actually make an RPG.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 19 août 2013 - 01:57 .


#723
Guest_Marten Stroud_*

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Looks okay. I want to see some more magic combat, though.

#724
The Antagonist

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Jayne126 wrote...

Yeah, looks like an action game. At least on that vid.


:mellow:
:)
B)

 Deal with it

#725
Nashiktal

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Can I ask you a simple question? In the video, Laidlaw say that what sets Dragon Age apart from the competition in terms of gameplay is party based combat. I agree. But what's the point of making it a "party-less" game at normal level making the experience less "pure" for the vast majority of the player base who plays on normal?


Because even if the player is able to focus on just playing their own character, it's still a party based game with party combat.

If you'd prefer, we could just deactivate party AI and force the player to do everything. I suspect that that wasn't what you were thinking, however.

There's a poster in this very thread that is very much into DA series for its party based, tactical combat, and he's specifically saying that his ideal is one where the party members can still be set up to behave properly so that his input is no longer required. To the point where he says he hates the moments in DAO when his inputs are required.


I saw this and it made me think of how I view party based combat.

Personally I love to leave the AI to do most of the work themselves. When I play the game I want to control MY character and letting the AI control my party helps to further immerse me into the game as I can look at, say, Varric knocking someone back who is attacking me as saving my life while if I order him to do it I feel like I am controlling puppets...  If that makes sense.

That was one thing I loved about DA2. I could preprogram my party's combat behavior so I could focus less on controlling a group and more on being the "champion" of Kirkwall. This helped me further see my party as individuals and less like puppets or automatons.

Not to mention I don't do well micromanaging multiple characters in fast paced combat so this gives me less to worry about while playing even if I sacrifice some efficiency while doing so.