883 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

EntropicAngel wrote...

esper wrote...

I suspect manuel too, but only because it is manuel in every other game, and da2 does have the rouge backflip think, so there is some precedence for 'escape talent'.

The rogue backflip was a combat animation--it wasn't actually a combat mechanic.

I know. It did, however, place the rouge out of danger (I think it either stunned or removed threat). With the update enige it could be teorectically possible to have talents that provide temporary invisibility frames during the animations, such as a 'dodgde roll'

The other (and admittely more likely) option is that it is indeed manuel. But we have been told multpile times not to jump to conclusion hence why I have tried to get an answer.

[azarhal]

EntropicAngel wrote...

esper wrote...

I suspect manuel too, but only because it is manuel in every other game, and da2 does have the rouge backflip think, so there is some precedence for 'escape talent'.

The rogue backflip was a combat animation--it wasn't actually a combat mechanic.

The backflip was the animation of a rogue ability, evade, that the player had to use. It had a stamina cost and a cooldown attached. The Warrior roll might be similar. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I see dev use the Red button (I don't own a gamepad ) right before the Warrior roll and unless I'm mistaken it's linked to the ability panel.

[esper]

EntropicAngel wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The backflip was the animation of a rogue ability, evade, that the player had to use. It had a stamina cost and a cooldown attached. The Warrior roll might be similar. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I see dev use the Red button (I don't own a gamepad ) right before the Warrior roll and unless I'm mistaken it's linked to the ability panel.

Hmm. I was thinking of the rogue backflip when they take damage.

But still, there was no arrow on the ground pointing out where he would roll to. That was being controlled by the movement bar, which would make it a twitch ability. But I think that requires further investigation.

Well, Allan said that they hadn't implemented targeting properly yet. Or perhaps the description is something like roll to the right.

Azerhal do you remember the timing for the ability in the video?

[Wulfram]

You could manually dodge pretty much everything in DA2, anyway. I'd rather they didn't keep that feature in DAI, but it wouldn't be a massive change if they added a rolling animation to make doing so seem a bit more exciting.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

You could manually dodge pretty much everything in DA2, anyway. I'd rather they didn't keep that feature in DAI, but it wouldn't be a massive change if they added a rolling animation to make doing so seem a bit more exciting.

But that wasn't a talent or had fancy animation.

That was kiting, you could do that in da:o too, I espically remember outrunning a mage at some point, and they do so already in da:I. See him moving behind the warrior. And there is a difference. You could order that manuel dodging from the pause menu (move to).

[Wulfram]

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You could manually dodge pretty much everything in DA2, anyway. I'd rather they didn't keep that feature in DAI, but it wouldn't be a massive change if they added a rolling animation to make doing so seem a bit more exciting.

But that wasn't a talent or had fancy animation.

That was kiting, you could do that in da:o too, I espically remember outrunning a mage at some point, and they do so already in da:I. See him moving behind the warrior. And there is a difference. You could order that manuel dodging from the pause menu (move to).

DA:O had kiting, but it didn't allow you to dodge blows that had already started, which meant you couldn't really attack in melee and then avoid their retaliation like in DA2.

I don't really see why you could order the roll from paused.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You could manually dodge pretty much everything in DA2, anyway. I'd rather they didn't keep that feature in DAI, but it wouldn't be a massive change if they added a rolling animation to make doing so seem a bit more exciting.

But that wasn't a talent or had fancy animation.

That was kiting, you could do that in da:o too, I espically remember outrunning a mage at some point, and they do so already in da:I. See him moving behind the warrior. And there is a difference. You could order that manuel dodging from the pause menu (move to).

DA:O had kiting, but it didn't allow you to dodge blows that had already started, which meant you couldn't really attack in melee and then avoid their retaliation like in DA2.

I don't really see why you could order the roll from paused.

Which could sometimes be silly and some times justified. (The ogre animation who rock throw for example).

As long as I can pause and shift between the companions, I would not mind a dogde roll.

If I could choose call up radial -> choose dogde + direction -> shift to new companion. It will be all right for me. It doesn't bother me that it can be played with twich, just as long as I am not forced to. What does bother me is if the only way for it to work would be to push dogde bottem + direction and we have to react in a split second. Even in da2, moves that were dodgde-able was telegraphed with time enough to bring up the pause menu.

[esper]

EntropicAngel wrote...

There are three options on the bottom right. The first looks like a "forward" option, with the others being on the sides. When they activate the roll, they do in fact move to the right, and the "right" (the direction) option kind of lights up.

The left option seems to be for the grapple hook--it kind of activates when he uses it.

So it does look like it's tied into the actual control options. However, he DOES use the left radial stick to aim it--it's possible it's an ability of some sort, especially since the game isn't paused. It's also possible it's completely manual.

I saw something else I found somewhat disturbing--context sensitive controls--but that's immaterial to the current topic.

I think we need more information to continue.

Are you sure the context sensitive controls weren't just how you switch between talents on the console? Or what else did you think you saw? (Hey, it is all combat related we have to discuss and now is the time for it.).

But, yes, we are not getting closer to the nature of the dogde.

[esper]

EntropicAngel wrote...

esper wrote...

Are you sure the context sensitive controls weren't just how you switch between talents on the console? Or what else did you think you saw? (Hey, it is all combat related we have to discuss and now is the time for it.).

But, yes, we are not getting closer to the nature of the dogde.

That's possible.

It appeared when the character approached the shielded enemy and after it made an attack or two. In addition, several seconds later in a new scene the character runs into a group of enemies and it soon appears. I can't actually read any of it, but it changes somehow.

I was pretty sure that was the classical shift. The same thing happened with the mage and there I saw him hold down a bottom.

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

I wonder if the feeling that it makes no sense to be able to dodge while paused is based on action games where when you're paused you can't do anything. But I don't know why you'd assume that's the same for DA when by tradition you can make practically any command while paused.

I don't claim to know which way it will be based on what little we've seen so far, but I'd keep an open mind...

Well, I don't actually think paused dodging is a good idea because it more or less trivialises a lot of bosses - the High Dragon, for example, poses effectively no threat when it's on the ground, the fight is only at all challenging when it's sitting back fireballing you while it's kids zerg rush.  At least in DA2. 

Even a proper action style dodge might be better gameplay even if it's going in the opposite of the direct I'd want the game to go in.

[SphereofSilence]

Question: We saw how they used gamepads to control the characters. But what about PC players who use mouse and keyboard? For example, in the fight against the enemy with the massive shield as shown in trailer, if the player is controlling another party member, how would that character in combat deal with the enemy? Will his actions be aided by AI, e.g. will he be smart enough to dodge around and try to get behind the shield guy to hit the vulnerable spot? If so, will there be a set of AI routines to choose from? For example, besides the standard roll around the back to hit the guy at his back, will there be alternatives like (1) standard attacks (2) try to evade his hits, but do not attempt to attack, but still get his attention (3) run away as far as possible (just for examples) ? Also, theoretically, in a melee fight, players who directly controls the discrete actions of that character (when to swing the sword, how to swing, dodging, rolling, movement, etc) - instead of merely commanding to attack and leave it to the AI to perform dodges and such - may be able to get the maximum level of effectiveness out of that character's actions, but the drawback being the player do not control the whole battlefield (other party members) while he is controlling a character this way.

Modifié par SphereofSilence, 19 août 2013 - 07:04 .

[blaidfiste]

SphereofSilence wrote...

Question: We saw how they used gamepads to control the characters. But what about PC players who use mouse and keyboard? For example, in the fight against the enemy with the massive shield as shown in trailer, if the player is controlling another party member, how would that character in combat deal with the enemy? Will his actions be aided by AI, e.g. will he be smart enough to dodge around and try to get behind the shield guy to hit the vulnerable spot? If so, will there be a set of AI routines to choose from? For example, besides the standard roll around the back to hit the guy at his back, will there be alternatives like (1) standard attacks (2) try to evade his hits, but do not attempt to attack, but still get his attention (3) run away as far as possible (just for examples) ? Also, theoretically, in a melee fight, players who directly controls the discrete actions of that character (when to swing the sword, how to swing, dodging, rolling, movement, etc) - instead of merely commanding to attack and leave it to the AI to perform dodges and such - may be able to get the maximum level of effectiveness out of that character's actions, but the drawback being the player do not control the whole battlefield (other party members) while he is controlling a character this way.

Most likely some form of defensive tactic you set for the player you're not controlling.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

Filament wrote...

I wonder if the feeling that it makes no sense to be able to dodge while paused is based on action games where when you're paused you can't do anything. But I don't know why you'd assume that's the same for DA when by tradition you can make practically any command while paused.

I don't claim to know which way it will be based on what little we've seen so far, but I'd keep an open mind...

Well, I don't actually think paused dodging is a good idea because it more or less trivialises a lot of bosses - the High Dragon, for example, poses effectively no threat when it's on the ground, the fight is only at all challenging when it's sitting back fireballing you while it's kids zerg rush.  At least in DA2. 

Even a proper action style dodge might be better gameplay even if it's going in the opposite of the direct I'd want the game to go in.

Speak for you self. I used pause and move to there, I didn't find it trivilizing. In fact I found it tactical to have to think about the positions and one of more fun aspects, but then again I have played a lot of srpgs and where the units are on the map are often some of the most important aspect. And if the dogde can be worked from pause like the move to, but also can be manually controlled like move to can right now, there is nothing previnting you from using it proper action style and nothing preventing me from doing the opposite.

(Of course we still don't know how it works, but this is not a bad compromise in my eyes).

[Battlebloodmage]

I see a lot of complains in regard to the combat system that looks more action oriented. Whether it is the consensus of the majority or the anti- people just scream louder, people need to realize that time has changed. If they stuck to the same old formula, it would eventually become stagnated like Turn-based JRPG in general, even games like Final Fantasy which was famous for its Turn-Based mechanic now switched to a more action-based style. Many old style has become a niche or at least a sub-population in the mainstream gaming culture. You could see that Bioware is trying to strike a balance between action and strategy in the video. As for the camera view, we don't know if it would return when the game is released next year, so it's a bit too soon to pick up your pitchfork. I think the one thing I don't like honestly is a roll mechanic since it could potentially trivialize the game. That also something that wait to be seen, however.

[Vilegrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I see a lot of complains in regard to the combat system that looks more action oriented. Whether it is the consensus of the majority or the anti- people just scream louder, people need to realize that time has changed. If they stuck to the same old formula, it would eventually become stagnated like Turn-based JRPG in general, even games like Final Fantasy which was famous for its Turn-Based mechanic now switched to a more action-based style. Many old style has become a niche or at least a sub-population in the mainstream gaming culture. You could see that Bioware is trying to strike a balance between action and strategy in the video. As for the camera view, we don't know if it would return when the game is released next year, so it's a bit too soon to pick up your pitchfork. I think the one thing I don't like honestly is a roll mechanic since it could potentially trivialize the game. That also something that wait to be seen, however.

so the 'compromise' is to turn tactics into twitch based dodging and a skorpion harpoon? That isn't a compromise.....

[hoorayforicecream]

EntropicAngel wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The easiest and best way to deal with it is to simply say what you like and what you dislike, and leave the interpretation up to the developers. Game developers rarely rigidly adhere to a set of genre requirements anyway; there's no governing body that forces them to have to follow some industry standard of what separates a role-playing game from an action adventure game.

The vast majority of talk about what is and isn't specific to RPGs as a genre will be ignored by devs anyway since it is almost never constructive.

To say nothing of the fact that those standards are crumbling in some ways.

That's the funny thing - these "standards" never actually existed in the first place. The main reason genres exist at all is because retailers needed some way to organize stock on shelves so they grouped games with loosely-associated features together.

[Battlebloodmage]

Vilegrim wrote...


so the 'compromise' is to turn tactics into twitch based dodging and a skorpion harpoon? That isn't a compromise.....

Like I said, I'm a bit worried about the dodging mechanism, but a harpoon could be interesting. The idea of tactic is very subjective. Choose the right movement to attack or exploit the enemies' weakness could also be considered tactics and seem like something Bioware is going for. We need to see how these abilities work out when we're being attacked by a hoard of enemies. 

[Vilegrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...


so the 'compromise' is to turn tactics into twitch based dodging and a skorpion harpoon? That isn't a compromise.....

Like I said, I'm a bit worried about the dodging mechanism, but a harpoon could be interesting. The idea of tactic is very subjective. Choose the right movement to attack or exploit the enemies' weakness could also be considered tactics and seem like something Bioware is going for. We need to see how these abilities work out when we're being attacked by a hoard of enemies. 

If 'choose the right moment or exploit weakness' are tactics then Steet Fighter is a tactical game, if you par the definiton back that far it looses all meaning.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 19 août 2013 - 07:32 .