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#826
Giltspur

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I don't inherently mind "twitch".  (Note: Despite the conciliatory opening sentence, I will go on to argue against the use of certain kinds of twitch elements in certain kinds of games.)  There are plenty of twitch games I like.  Though I tend to play archers, snipers and crowd controllers in those games when I have the opportunity, which sort of slows down the twitch and lets me scheme.  And I appreciate it when there are non-twitch elements to those games such as in Mass Effect where enemy shields/barriers/armor play a big factor in how I approach an encounter.  And again, sniper rifles, the fine wine of shooting games.

No, for me it comes down to what an interesting decision in the context of a game is.  Some games are conflicts of the body.  A Mario game.  I know what I want to do.  I want to not fall in the hole and die.  But mastering Nintendo's newest game controller and executing what I want is the game.  Because it's a conflict of the body.  (And so twitch elements are a big and important deal here.)

Some games are conflicts are the mind.  Executing the moves is really easy.  But deciding what to do is hard.  The conflict is in your mind and not in your fingertips and your physical coordination.

And I have traditionally liked it in RPG's when their conflicts focus on the mind.  Don't make the UI a barrier.  Don't make the controls a barrier.  Make them as easy as breathing.  But make the choices interesting.  That's my preferred approach to games in general.  It's not the only good way to do things.  It's just my favorite way.  And it's why I like turn-based strategy like X-Com more than I like real-time strategy like Starcraft.  I like to think about what to do and not worry so much about the human-controller interface side of things.  You know, there's a micromanagement barrier to Starcraft that you have to overcome before you earn the right to think on the battlefield.  So a lot of the gameplay in Starcarft is annoying even though some of it is cool.  But all of X-Com is cool.  

At any rate, I just haven't seen enough of the combat gameplay for DAI to know what to think.  The video just makes me want to see more gameplay.  What's a coordinated encounter like?  What are the kinds of decisions we make?  Are they primarily mental challenges or are they challenges of coordination with the controller being a limiting factor?  Is it a mix?

And I wouldn't say all twitch elements are necessarily bad either.  I want to knock structures down and cut bridges down at opportune times as much as the next guy.  That's kind of twitchy.  But it's a decision that involves some interesting mental connection.  Hey if I combine this with that when they're standing there... boom.  I predicted boom.  Boom happened.  Go me.

What's not cool (in a game for the mind) is when the gameplay is "Dodge this huge axe swing".  Because that's not an interesting decision.  You always want to do that.  There's never a point where you go "I'd like to eat an axe today.  Let's see how that plays out."  Do I hit the nuker mage or the healer mage?  Interesting.  Do I kill these dudes guarding higher ground so that I can move my ranged up there and put my tank in the choke point to the higher ground or do I send my melee with their disruption abilities after the guys harassing my ranged instead.  Interesting.  What do I do with these guys given my party members and talent decisions?  Interesting.  Do I avoid death by axe: yes or no?  Not interesting enough to count as a conflict of the mind.  So when I see a dodge I think to myself "Just what kind of encounters are these going to be?  Where are the decision points where I need to spend my attention?"  Not saying a dodge can't be ever be an interesting decision.  It depends on the context.  But it can definitely be a boring decision that waters down what's really interesting.

Modifié par Giltspur, 19 août 2013 - 11:08 .


#827
Galactus_the_Devourer

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Giltspur wrote...

I don't inherently mind "twitch".  (Note: Despite the conciliatory opening sentence, I will go on to argue against the use of certain kinds of twitch elements in certain kinds of games.)  There are plenty of twitch games I like.  Though I tend to play archers, snipers and crowd controllers in those games when I have the opportunity, which sort of slows down the twitch and lets me scheme.  And I appreciate it when there are non-twitch elements to those games such as in Mass Effect where enemy shields/barriers/armor play a big factor in how I approach an encounter.  And again, sniper rifles, the fine wine of shooting games.

No, for me it comes down to what an interesting decision in the context of a game is.  Some games are conflicts of the body.  A Mario game.  I know what I want to do.  I want to not fall in the hole and die.  But mastering Nintendo's newest game controller and executing what I want is the game.  Because it's a conflict of the body.  (And so twitch elements are a big and important deal here.)

Some games are conflicts are the mind.  Executing the moves is really easy.  But deciding what to do is hard.  The conflict is in your mind and not in your fingertips and your physical coordination.

And I have traditionally liked it in RPG's when their conflicts focus on the mind.  Don't make the UI a barrier.  Don't make the controls a barrier.  Make them as easy as breathing.  But make the choices interesting.  That's my preferred approach to games in general.  It's not the only good way to do things.  It's just my favorite way.  And it's why I like turn-based strategy like X-Com more than I like real-time strategy like Starcraft.  I like to think about what to do and not worry so much about the human-controller interface side of things.  You know, there's a micromanagement barrier to Starcraft that you have to overcome before you earn the right to think on the battlefield.  So a lot of the gameplay in Starcarft is annoying even though some of it is cool.  But all of X-Com is cool.  

At any rate, I just haven't seen enough of the combat gameplay for DAI to know what to think.  The video just makes me want to see more gameplay.  What's a coordinated encounter like?  What are the kinds of decisions we make?  Are they primarily mental challenges or are they challenges of coordination with the controller being a limiting factor?  Is it a mix?

And I wouldn't say all twitch elements are necessarily bad either.  I want to knock structures down and cut bridges down at opportune times as much as the next guy.  That's kind of twitchy.  But it's a decision that involves some interesting mental connection.  Hey if I combine this with that when they're standing there... boom.  I predicted boom.  Boom happened.  Go me.

What's not cool (in a game for the mind) is when the gameplay is "Dodge this huge axe swing".  Because that's not an interesting decision.  You always want to do that.  There's never a point where you go "I'd like to eat an axe today.  Let's see how that plays out."  Do I hit the nuker mage or the healer mage?  Interesting.  Do I kill these dudes guarding higher ground so that I can move my ranged up there and put my tank in the choke point to the higher ground or do I send my melee with their disruption abilities after the guys harassing my ranged instead.  Interesting.  What do I do with these guys given my party members and talent decisions?  Interesting.  Do I avoid death by axe: yes or no?  Not interesting enough to count as a conflict of the mind.  So when I see a dodge I think to myself "Just what kind of encounters are these going to be?  Where are the decision points where I need to spend my attention?"  Not saying a dodge can't be ever be an interesting decision.  It depends on the context.  But it can definitely be a boring decision that waters down what's really interesting.


Excellent post. I agree pretty much wholeheartedly.

#828
Wulfram

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Giltspur wrote...

What's not cool (in a game for the mind) is when the gameplay is "Dodge this huge axe swing".  Because that's not an interesting decision.  You always want to do that.  There's never a point where you go "I'd like to eat an axe today.  Let's see how that plays out." 


Well, "do I dodge or do I attack" can be an interesting choice.  Assuming the huge axe won't take all your hitpoints.

#829
andar91

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Hmmmm. The fact that the dodge is an activated ability is very interesting.

@Maria Caliban: I agree with your point about Allan, but I really love the term you used. I am now picturing the developers' heads on garish pinatas, and the forums is a rowdy birthday party where a bunch of posters run around with sticks banging them and shouting things like, "Romances? Bowstrings? Tactical?"

#830
Morroian

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Galactus_the_Devourer wrote...

DAO still had enemies doing mostly the same things to you as you did to them (although they could do it harder or faster or nastier) DA2 however... Kind of broke that. It had mages using the same spells as you but with different effects, seemingly rule-breaking stuff like teleportation etc. And not in special encounters but just regular mooks. 

Now to the Shield Mooks, my thought is immediately "So how does this work for us?" Do all shields work like that? Can we equip a pavise/tower shield and gain similar bonuses? Can enemies snatch our shields?

Part of this is also a problem of versimilitude. One of my big pet peeves in DA2 where the genlocks, who were rolling to attack you and well... They just felt for a lack of a better word "gamey": As in, they didn't make much sense outside of these particular encounters. (Do they roll like that to get food? Seems ungainly, etc.)

Am I just crazy or does anyone else get what I'm whining about?


Well I agree, I would far prefer enemies to be playing by similar rules as the player.

On the video I agree that we need to see more of how it works on a party basis but the combat animations were an improvement on the OTT animations of DA2.

#831
Monica83

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I love also when bioware (the only company i know that do this) shot smoke in what the nature of the RPG is....

The harpoon is a little thing for sure if you examining it whitout care for the global things....


But lets make an example:
Party based combat an ennemy with an huge shield and a heavy armor run in attacking it in frontal manner will end to you do less damage since he is protected with the shield so what you do?...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

B) Manage your party formation and move someone agile benhind the huge guy... Or with your mage focus on cast certain spell on your ennemy... Or surround the ennemy with your melee fighter while the mage makes crow control...

Now this is tactics..... Not trowing a silly harpoon from nowhere...

Decision like this is what ruined DA2 combat....

#832
Zanallen

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Monica83 wrote...

I love also when bioware (the only company i know that do this) shot smoke in what the nature of the RPG is....

The harpoon is a little thing for sure if you examining it whitout care for the global things....

But lets make an example:
Party based combat an ennemy with an huge shield and a heavy armor run in attacking it in frontal manner will end to you do less damage since he is protected with the shield so what you do?...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

B) Manage your party formation and move someone agile benhind the huge guy... Or with your mage focus on cast certain spell on your ennemy... Or surround the ennemy with your melee fighter while the mage makes crow control...

Now this is tactics..... Not trowing a silly harpoon from nowhere...

Decision like this is what ruined DA2 combat....


It is an optional ability that makes it easier for you to deal with these shielded enemies. It gives you more options in planning your attack strategy. Just like having a mage with mana clash in DA:O gave you an option to deal with enemy mages easier.

#833
Tommyspa

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Zanallen wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

I love also when bioware (the only company i know that do this) shot smoke in what the nature of the RPG is....

The harpoon is a little thing for sure if you examining it whitout care for the global things....

But lets make an example:
Party based combat an ennemy with an huge shield and a heavy armor run in attacking it in frontal manner will end to you do less damage since he is protected with the shield so what you do?...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

B) Manage your party formation and move someone agile benhind the huge guy... Or with your mage focus on cast certain spell on your ennemy... Or surround the ennemy with your melee fighter while the mage makes crow control...

Now this is tactics..... Not trowing a silly harpoon from nowhere...

Decision like this is what ruined DA2 combat....


It is an optional ability that makes it easier for you to deal with these shielded enemies. It gives you more options in planning your attack strategy. Just like having a mage with mana clash in DA:O gave you an option to deal with enemy mages easier.


And like using cone of cold running away and using fireball in Origins gave you an option to deal with ALL eneies easier, lol.

#834
Plaintiff

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Monica83 wrote...

I love also when bioware (the only company i know that do this) shot smoke in what the nature of the RPG is....

The harpoon is a little thing for sure if you examining it whitout care for the global things....


But lets make an example:
Party based combat an ennemy with an huge shield and a heavy armor run in attacking it in frontal manner will end to you do less damage since he is protected with the shield so what you do?...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

B) Manage your party formation and move someone agile benhind the huge guy... Or with your mage focus on cast certain spell on your ennemy... Or surround the ennemy with your melee fighter while the mage makes crow control...

Now this is tactics..... Not trowing a silly harpoon from nowhere...

Decision like this is what ruined DA2 combat....

El-oh-el.

"Your method of incapacitating the enemy isn't tactics! Only my method of incapacitating the enemy is tactics!"

#835
Morroian

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Monica83 wrote...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

B) Manage your party formation and move someone agile benhind the huge guy... Or with your mage focus on cast certain spell on your ennemy... Or surround the ennemy with your melee fighter while the mage makes crow control...


Throwing a harpoon is an option and of course its a tactic if the game has it as an ability. No doubt you would also be able to manage the formation as per your point B we just haven't seen that yet.

#836
Rylor Tormtor

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Giltspur wrote...

I don't inherently mind "twitch".  (Note: Despite the conciliatory opening sentence, I will go on to argue against the use of certain kinds of twitch elements in certain kinds of games.)  There are plenty of twitch games I like.  Though I tend to play archers, snipers and crowd controllers in those games when I have the opportunity, which sort of slows down the twitch and lets me scheme.  And I appreciate it when there are non-twitch elements to those games such as in Mass Effect where enemy shields/barriers/armor play a big factor in how I approach an encounter.  And again, sniper rifles, the fine wine of shooting games.

No, for me it comes down to what an interesting decision in the context of a game is.  Some games are conflicts of the body.  A Mario game.  I know what I want to do.  I want to not fall in the hole and die.  But mastering Nintendo's newest game controller and executing what I want is the game.  Because it's a conflict of the body.  (And so twitch elements are a big and important deal here.)

Some games are conflicts are the mind.  Executing the moves is really easy.  But deciding what to do is hard.  The conflict is in your mind and not in your fingertips and your physical coordination.

And I have traditionally liked it in RPG's when their conflicts focus on the mind.  Don't make the UI a barrier.  Don't make the controls a barrier.  Make them as easy as breathing.  But make the choices interesting.  That's my preferred approach to games in general.  It's not the only good way to do things.  It's just my favorite way.  And it's why I like turn-based strategy like X-Com more than I like real-time strategy like Starcraft.  I like to think about what to do and not worry so much about the human-controller interface side of things.  You know, there's a micromanagement barrier to Starcraft that you have to overcome before you earn the right to think on the battlefield.  So a lot of the gameplay in Starcarft is annoying even though some of it is cool.  But all of X-Com is cool.  

At any rate, I just haven't seen enough of the combat gameplay for DAI to know what to think.  The video just makes me want to see more gameplay.  What's a coordinated encounter like?  What are the kinds of decisions we make?  Are they primarily mental challenges or are they challenges of coordination with the controller being a limiting factor?  Is it a mix?

And I wouldn't say all twitch elements are necessarily bad either.  I want to knock structures down and cut bridges down at opportune times as much as the next guy.  That's kind of twitchy.  But it's a decision that involves some interesting mental connection.  Hey if I combine this with that when they're standing there... boom.  I predicted boom.  Boom happened.  Go me.

What's not cool (in a game for the mind) is when the gameplay is "Dodge this huge axe swing".  Because that's not an interesting decision.  You always want to do that.  There's never a point where you go "I'd like to eat an axe today.  Let's see how that plays out."  Do I hit the nuker mage or the healer mage?  Interesting.  Do I kill these dudes guarding higher ground so that I can move my ranged up there and put my tank in the choke point to the higher ground or do I send my melee with their disruption abilities after the guys harassing my ranged instead.  Interesting.  What do I do with these guys given my party members and talent decisions?  Interesting.  Do I avoid death by axe: yes or no?  Not interesting enough to count as a conflict of the mind.  So when I see a dodge I think to myself "Just what kind of encounters are these going to be?  Where are the decision points where I need to spend my attention?"  Not saying a dodge can't be ever be an interesting decision.  It depends on the context.  But it can definitely be a boring decision that waters down what's really interesting.


This post was so well written and spot on (as far as my viewpoint) that I had to give it a thumbs up. 

#837
Ziggeh

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Monica83 wrote...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

Throwing a harpoon isn't all that tactical. Arranging for the party to hit the harpooned guy (and not be doing other things) in the period of time in which he is vulnerable is.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 20 août 2013 - 01:21 .


#838
MarchWaltz

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Monica83 wrote...
a)Trowing 



#839
Realmzmaster

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Ziggeh wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

a)Trowing an harpoon making him fall on his knees... (i don't see nothing tactical in this i see just a lazy attempt to bring an illusion of tactics)

Throwing a harpoon isn't all that tactical. Arranging for the party to hit the harpooned guy (and not be doing other things) in the period of time in which he is vulnerable is.


Knowing when to throw the harpoon is tactical especially if the enemy has a shield. If the harpoon can manage to knock the shield aside or bring the emeny to its knees then an archer has the chance to put an arrow in a place it will do the most good.

The tactical objective is to lower the defensive capability of the enemy. One of the specific techniques used in achieveing the tactical objective may be the harpoon along with a number of subsequent techniques.

A tactic can be defined as a calculated action. Employing or not employing the harpoon is a calculated action.

#840
Monica83

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MarchWaltz wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
a)Trowing 


No offence dude.... but i am not native english....sometimes i make mistake on words.. i am italian after all...But..
I respect who attempt to communicate something and make mistakes because is talking in his not native language.....
The same can't be sayd on you it seems... and i feel sorry for you...Because that was rude...


Back on topic:

Throwing an harpoon to me is just oversimplify something(and not so much realistic at all-now now don't bring mage ability in that discussion because you know they use magic :) ).... Like the teleport backstab of the thief.... Are just lazy solution....or weak if you prefear... But that's just me.... i love complex thing not simple thing..

Modifié par Monica83, 20 août 2013 - 07:58 .


#841
FedericoV

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Giltspur wrote...

No, for me it comes down to what an interesting decision in the context of a game is.  Some games are conflicts of the body.  A Mario game.  I know what I want to do.  I want to not fall in the hole and die.  But mastering Nintendo's newest game controller and executing what I want is the game.  Because it's a conflict of the body.  (And so twitch elements are a big and important deal here.)

Some games are conflicts are the mind.  Executing the moves is really easy.  But deciding what to do is hard.  The conflict is in your mind and not in your fingertips and your physical coordination.


I completely agree: your post was a very good read. 

In DA2 (and DA:O's consolle version) they wanted both kind of gameplay to be avaible to the player depending on the difficulty level and the platform. I must repeat my position since mr. Alan Schumacher hasn't convinced me: that's a flawed design concept that's prone to failure. You cannot develop a game with good combat design and good ecounters design when you have to satisfy both approaches (conflict of the mind and conflict of the body).

It's always the same controvery with so called action RPGs: if I aim manually and score an headshot because I'm good with the mouse/controller I don't want any stats in between that could change the result of my action. If it's stat driven, then it should be just a question of percentages: I should not waste any time aiming manually. That's exactly why the only worthwile Bioware's games in term of gameplay are BG and DA:O for PC (conflict of the mind) and ME2/ME3 (conflict of the body).

And that's why action RPGs always seems like the poor man's version of action games while pure tactical games like Xcom or Total War look classy and are well received by critics and players. So, DA:I should be an action game or a tactical game. It cannot be both succesfully in my opinion (but I would be glad to be proven wrong). A game should not try to wear too many hats: do few things but do them well (less is always more in my book).

Modifié par FedericoV, 20 août 2013 - 08:50 .


#842
esper

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

The debate has a poiint because it is pre-alpha and nothing is set, if this was beta, their would be no chance of a change that central,.


The debate is a red herring because people have their own definition of what an RPG is. I don't want people to get into a debate over whether or not it's an RPG because people will argue from a variety of different angles and they're all going to believe they are not incorrect in their assessment.

Someone can see the combat video and still imagine it being an RPG. Other people will see it and say that this cannot be an RPG. Since there is no agreement on what an RPG is, getting boiled down in what is or is not an RPG is not particularly productive, since the things you feel (pre-alpha or not) are required for an RPG may not be what other people feel are required.


And you are still not going to answer my question about what kind of mechanic the dogde roll was? Talent, manuel, automatic?


I simply hadn't seen your question. I don't have the opportunity to read and respond to every post (and sometimes I straight up read posts too quickly and miss things in the post themselves)

In any case, it's an activated ability, at least at this time.

(Although a post like that does put me in an awkward position.  EDIT: Referring to encouraging people to make posts of that nature because I missed a question earlier.  There are better ways to repeat a question than assuming I'm being malevolent in my reasoning for not answering it)


Thanks for answering my question. And I am sorry, if you think I was thinking you was mavolent, I was simply rephrasing the quesiton because the first two times drowned out, and my mastering of the english langue is simply not good enough to ask in wildly different ways, and I was simply using the method that ensured I was heard.
(And it worked too)

Anyway, I meant you no ill, and I did not think you meant me any ill will either.

#843
Monica83

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FedericoV wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

No, for me it comes down to what an interesting decision in the context of a game is.  Some games are conflicts of the body.  A Mario game.  I know what I want to do.  I want to not fall in the hole and die.  But mastering Nintendo's newest game controller and executing what I want is the game.  Because it's a conflict of the body.  (And so twitch elements are a big and important deal here.)

Some games are conflicts are the mind.  Executing the moves is really easy.  But deciding what to do is hard.  The conflict is in your mind and not in your fingertips and your physical coordination.


I completely agree: your post was a very good read. 

In DA2 (and DA:O's consolle version) they wanted both kind of gameplay to be avaible to the player depending on the difficulty level and the platform. I must repeat my position since mr. Alan Schumacher hasn't convinced me: that's a flawed design concept that's prone to failure. You cannot develop a game with good combat design and good ecounters design when you have to satisfy both approaches (conflict of the mind and conflict of the body).

It's always the same controvery with so called action RPGs: if I aim manually and score an headshot because I'm good with the mouse/controller I don't want any stats in between that could change the result of my action. If it's stat driven, then it should be just a question of percentages: I should not waste any time aiming manually. That's exactly why the only worthwile Bioware's games in term of gameplay are BG and DA:O for PC (conflict of the mind) and ME2/ME3 (conflict of the body).

And that's why action RPGs always seems like the poor man's version of action games while pure tactical games like Xcom or Total War look classy and are well received by critics and players. So, DA:I should be an action game or a tactical game. It cannot be both succesfully in my opinion (but I would be glad to be proven wrong). A game should not try to wear too many hats: do few things but do them well (less is always more in my book).


I agree completely

#844
Cainhurst Crow

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@Giltspur

So because everyone would like to dodge the axe or spell or means of harm and death, than it's a bad design to include it in the combat, and should be removed....so basically, why let people avoid death when we can make them take an axe to the face head on?

When it comes to something as basic as dodging, it either is allowed, or it isn't,. You can't middle ground a dodge, or it's just a failed dodge. Either the player character is allowed to dodge the blow, thus meaning a twitch mechanic is in this game and will be incorporated into it and having an increased focus on close engagement, with perhaps a lesser focus on more long range or static combat. Or, it isn't, in which case all encounters will be built with the need to make  pretty much only static, long distance combat highly viable and prized while close range combat get's less of a focus on and "in the moment" styles of play go out the window for detached, rts style combat approaches.

This is my experience with gaming and my opinion. I'd like to hear if you disagre with me, and if so, how you disagre with me and the reason. I wouldn't mind hearing new views on the matter.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 août 2013 - 09:18 .


#845
Guest_Puddi III_*

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I was just thinking maybe they could implement the proposed autopause feature as a kind of thing that occurs whenever an enemy initiates any special ability at all, such as a talent. Or, it could be whenever an enemy uses an AOE attack specifically. Or any attack arbitrarily flagged to trigger the autopause.

That would give the player more control over the "twitch" aspect hypothetically. But also, if they have flags of that nature, hypothetically they could also be used tactically. Though I'm not sure how effective they would be-- as soon as an ogre initiates a charge, all four of your characters roll away in unison? That would be kind of weird.

Still, even without being able to set tactics for the ability effectively, I don't think that would be enough to say there shouldn't be a dodge ability. It is a useful ability to have, even moreso with abilities to be able to better control its use. (and the use of other things -- autopause would be helpful well beyond the scope of "dodge nao," I think. For example, you might want summon an stone wall in the ogre's path, or coat the ground with ice, use forcefield, etc.)

#846
abnocte

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@Darth Brotarian

As far as I remember NWN included a dogde ability, there was no need for the player to give active input for the character to dogde a blow.

Forcing the player to actively dogde attacks when s/he has to control a party instead of a single character is not a good design decision in my opinion...

#847
Guest_Puddi III_*

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I think I see something of what Glitspur is saying taken together with some of In Exile's comments... that perhaps a dodge ability could be "too" useful like having a mage stocked with elemental spells, or Geralt with his dodge ability, that it may trivialize or remove the need to solve situations tactically-- you can just dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge your way to victory.

So that's a concern distinct from the twitchy/tactical concern that seem to have dominated this thread... it's balance. Exacerbated to an extent, compared to Exile's complaint, if dodge is an ability all characters innately have regardless of build. But I suppose if the ability had a cooldown and/or stamina cost associated, that could prevent spamming your way to victory. Or if various status effects like slow, constrict or paralyze were more common, or if hostile terrain (eg ice, grease, mud, caltrops) impeded movement related abilities.

#848
1varangian

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A harpoon skill that automatically disables a "big shield guy" is a very artificial attempt at tactics. Should be very easy to deflect any kind of missile with a huge shield.

I really don't want to see harpoons, hails of arrows, flasks, bombs and whatnot coming out of nowhere as "talents".

I'd like Bioware to create an RPG that doesn't devolve into a silly cartoony romp because of its combat.

#849
Cainhurst Crow

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abnocte wrote...

@Darth Brotarian

As far as I remember NWN included a dogde ability, there was no need for the player to give active input for the character to dogde a blow.

Forcing the player to actively dogde attacks when s/he has to control a party instead of a single character is not a good design decision in my opinion...


How exactly does one dodge without having any input? If it's automatic I can't imagine it would be engaging at all when it happens. In fact automatic attacks for close engagement is quite a killer, I would imagine anyway, for anyone looking to specialize in anything close quarters combat, since most of what you do isn't reliant on you at all, but the AI.

I just don't see the appeal of being someone who fights in close range if all my attacks are decided for me by a machine. It only works well, for me, if I am allowed to have control of the character directly in order to time attacks, dodges, powerful dps moves, and employ flanking manuvers or acting as a distraction to open the oppponent up for attack.

Otherwise you might as well just play a ranged combatant since they;re playstyle lends much more heavily towards that kind of system of passive play.

#850
Cainhurst Crow

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1varangian wrote...

A harpoon skill that automatically disables a "big shield guy" is a very artificial attempt at tactics. Should be very easy to deflect any kind of missile with a huge shield.

I really don't want to see harpoons, hails of arrows, flasks, bombs and whatnot coming out of nowhere as "talents".

I'd like Bioware to create an RPG that doesn't devolve into a silly cartoony romp because of its combat.


Have they ever done that in any of their games? Just asking, cause it's been like at least 20 years now. And if they haven't done it by now, they probably aren't going to cater to what your looking for.