883 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They told us about tactics but they only really showed us action. So I'm ambivalent.

Wait, what? Are you saying action can't have tactics? Because that's actually what was shown and talked about. It might not be tactics you want in a game but it's still tactical nonetheless.

Nope, its reflexes and timing.

And everyone knows that in real life reflexes and timing have no place in tactical combat whatsoever.

That would mean you think Super mario is a tactical game.

Or maybe it means I don't categorise games according to a reductive binary system.

The rest of the world does.

[Shevy]

I like the direction they are trying to take combat, but it was insufficient and pre-alpha, so difficult to judge. The 1v1 scenes looked good, the speed seems to be right. Don't know if the roll is an ability or standard move and if it's spamable or not.

While I'm a fan of active dodge/parry/riposte in 1v1 games like Dark Souls, I'm undetermined if it's a good thing in a party-based game. Hopefully we'll se some party interaction ( PC group and enemies) soon. It can lead to a scenario where you are forced to play the tank actively and have the AI doing your mates cause otherwise you would suffer and fail in combat.

While I don't think Origins required issuing direct orders to succeed, definitly more than DA II did, a scenario like mentioned above is something I don't want to see.

Magic looked cool, something like "grab hook on electrical foes" and poison resistance on heavy armored enemies sound promising cause they add depth to combat.

In the end their concept sounds great, but we'll have to see the execution. The part in which DA II suffered extremely.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...
The rest of the world does.

What an utterly ridiculous statement. Plenty of games manage to be 'tactical' (which is a subjective marketing buzzword anyway) while managing to incorporate reflexes and timing.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 août 2013 - 10:20 .

[Sister Goldring]

I saw nothing in the video that showed me party based tactics, I heard the words mentioned repeatedly. What I saw looked very like a sort of actiony player response driven combat (and BIG swords) which makes me think twitch. The actual gameplay could be very different from the pictorial impression the video gives. I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but I wasn't reassured that the combat is going in my preferred direction.

I do think that they wanted to let the audience know that tactics were in the forefront of their minds but exactly what type of tactical play I'm not too sure about. The whole telegraphing enemy openings has me a little concerned. We'll see, I guess.

[Sylvianus]

They mostly showed the inquisitor alone, one guy against another guy. I suppose they will demonstrate fights with tactical group and all the party later.

[andar91]

To show deeper combat, they're gonna need to show longer combat, which might not be viable for a bit.

I realize that a lot of people love the zoomed-out camera because it facillitates tactics, but i get frustrated when people claim that such a camera IS tactics. Tactics, I think, are more than that, but to each their own. I prefer being zoomed in and pausing frequently.

Im curious how that dodge works. For all we know, it could be an ability or have a cooldown like potions did in DA2. Even if it doesn't, i dont think ill mind. If dodging is necessary, i can easily (I presume) pause, do it, and then unpause.

I have no issue with the harpoon. Why shouldn't a javelin and chain work in this game?

[kingjezza]

It's like they were talking about a different game to the one they were showing. They talked about tactical, party based combat more akin to Origins, even showed footage from other games with that type of style yet showed us, like others have stated, more player responsive arcade type combat.

I'm not down with the rolling either, if there is one thing that is likely to get on my nerves, it's the roll to avoid being hit game mechanic.

Since they announced I think it's pretty much all been positive, I think this is the first slight misstep they have taken.

[Uccio]

I already have big issue with the combat. It looks like something out of mortal combat with centered health bars, not good.

[KylieDog]

Looks like an action RPG, Dark Souls style etc. 


Do not want in my Dragon Age.


Maybe next game after Inquisition can be Dragon Age: Origins II. 

Modifié par KylieDog, 17 août 2013 - 11:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

To show deeper combat, they're gonna need to show longer combat, which might not be viable for a bit.

Indeed. Less than thirty seconds is not time enough to judge a system that, by all accounts, we will be spending hours upon hours engaging in through the course of the game.

I rememer DA2's combat was demo'd for about twenty seconds as well, (it even showed a party encounter and how tactical you could play) and it looked on par with Origins in terms of being able to use the pause-and-play feature while strategically using abilities, or you could just take the game off pause and let the encounter play out in normal speed.

That's not how I felt that DA2's combat wound up playing out, so I think we'd just need more time and time that may be an actual demo we can play, instead of a video we can watch, to make a real determination. That said... that roll has me very concerned that every step demonstrated to making the game more tactical in the last few weeks has all been for nothing.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 17 août 2013 - 11:03 .

[KylieDog]

Press a button, something awesome happens.

[Fast Jimmy]

KylieDog wrote...

Press a button, something awesome happens.

Press a button, cancel pre-order...?

[Allan Schumacher]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

SMillar21 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Its just baffling that they went on about party focused tactics and strategy, then didn't show any.

You don't know whether its a hopeful sign or a very bad one.

The only thing we have to go off of is a God of War style chain throwing and a W2/Kingdoms of Amular style 1 v 1.

I'm curious who cut the video, since I found that surprising as well.

So there are clips with team work tactics?

Seconded 

Well, if GI did the cutting, that could make sense.

"Show first twenty seconds of combat Friday, then next week (Mon, Wed, Fri) showcase progressively more detailed combat."

It would be my marketing strategy, honestly.

Overthinking my comment guys.  I don't actually know what all was shot for GI (I was doing my own thing while the crew was around).  It's simply a comment of 'it seems weird to put the tactical commentary with the single player footage" and I'm curious if it was a GI cut that ended up putting them together.

As for the party combat?  Well, lets just say you need a baseline of getting one person able to do thing before you can get more than one person doing things.  In other words, probably not quiiite ready to show.

When the videos are released it's the first time I watch them as well.

[snackrat]

At one point you can see the Xbox player - the one appearing to play as Vivienne with the fire wall - rapidly tapping A.
The return of the Awesome Button?

Personally I plan on playing PC, but I hope that isn't what it looks like and is just either something they haven't fixed yet or just the player's own trigger finger (like mashing the melee button until your target is dead instead of once per swing)...

The action-based tactics are great for single PC but for party play will contain a loooooooot of micromanagement (unless companion AI is upgraded to match).

[Mykel54]

It is a weird video, adding mechanics of action rpg games to DA, which is a group based rpg game. I am very skeptical that such mechanics can work in group combat, i would rather bioware stick to their guns.

The more i see the more i think that bioware insist on adding features from the competence (witcher, skyrim, etc.) but there is nothing about how problematic adapting those things to a DA game would be. Showing single character combat, for a game based around group combat is not really showing any adaptation to the DA format.

[The Elder King]

I think that the players will still have the option of choosing auto-attack or button mashing for normal attacks, as in DA2. Maybe the developer in the video was using the second approach.
As for the video, considering how far away the release is and the state of the game (pre-alpha), I'll wait before making any judgements. Many things could change.

[Back_For_You_My_Love]

Okay, I'm not sure that I know what in the world is going on here; would someone care to explain to me what the problem is? People are disappointed and dislike the fact the when you press the attack button the PC..........attacks??? That's a good thing, right? Should not games have responsive and fluid controls? Or is it that people would rather press attack and the PC runs to an enemy and attack on their own until the fight ends via DA:O? I understand that we all have our opinions and mine is that I like what I see very much.

    I like DA:O a lot but I am not such a fan of the combat and while I am not so fond of DA2 I DID really enjoy the characters and responsive combat (a bit slower would be perfect ). Also, the game is being optimized for PC so it CAN have a bit of the DA:O feel so what is the problem? I'm shocked people are really jumping into this so negatively when we only saw pre-alpha footage and not much was shown. Let's just wait and see until  the real footage is properly shown to us before bashing the game, deal? If I am wrong I'll eat a huge bowl of brussel sprouts (I loathe these vegetables but I eat them because they are healthy) and I'll put the audio in the off-topics...........and I am sure my fiance will be all too eager to see that I do it <_<......

[Deverz]

Honestly, if Bioware is going to implement multiplayer the gameplay has to be realtime. And all the rumors seems to suggest that it's going to have multiplayer

I reckon they will do it like Mass Effect. Completely realtime with pausing, issuing orders and play. It looks like they borrow a lot of Dark Souls stuff with precise timing and positioning, enemy weaknesses and strengths.

I'm actually excited about that. I've never been a big fan of the MMO auto-attack style. Having your every attack count and get good timing, positioning, pausing and using the right abilities at the right time sounds wonderful to me. Then again I'm basing it on like 20 seconds of pre-alpha gameplay.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

[FedericoV]

MaraGriffyn wrote...

Filament wrote...

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like exactly what their goal should be in design. Normal difficulty should be playable with a single character and tactics controlled companions. Higher difficulties should require more player direction or finely tuned tactics and builds. I can't see how that would be bad. That has nothing to do with Mass Effect except reflecting similarly sound gameplay design.

Agreed 100%. Easy/normal difficulty setting should pretty much just let you control your PC and let AI control the others. Hard/Nightmare is where more tactical stuff should come into play.

Mmmhhh... they have tried the same design approach in DA2 and the result was a failure.

Action players were not satisfied (when you can play action games like Batman Arkham Asylum that actually feel good... action rpgs will always feel like the poor man version of those games) and the more tactical audience could not stand the whole approach to combat.  

Imho, you have to choose a direction and stick to it with all the consequences (for example, in an action game party based combat and P&P are only an annoyance).

I would be glad to be proven wrong but you cannot design proper encounters when the way the game is actually played changes radicallly depending on the difficulty level (the only solution would be to make combat trivial at easier settings but waht's the point of forcing us tons of encounters in that case?).

Anyway, from the little we've seen in the video, I agree that there's a Dark Souls influence (I can't see TW2 influence but that's for the better: TW2 is a great game but the combat was a mess). The pre-alpha seems like a more tactical version of DA2 wich was what I was expecting. I should add that I'm not impressed at all and it's the first bit of news from the game informer preview that leaves me cold. 

Modifié par FedericoV, 17 août 2013 - 12:51 .

[Provi-dance]

Don't like it. Twitch mechanics don't fit in a party-based rpg.

This is the first thing I heard about DA:I combat that I really dislike. Moar to come...

Implement attacks of opportunity. It will fix a lot of things.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They told us about tactics but they only really showed us action. So I'm ambivalent.

Wait, what? Are you saying action can't have tactics? Because that's actually what was shown and talked about. It might not be tactics you want in a game but it's still tactical nonetheless.

Nope, its reflexes and timing.

And everyone knows that in real life reflexes and timing have no place in tactical combat whatsoever.

You are completely correct. But, this is not a real life simulation. This is a game, a game in a tradition that had a different combat style, one that was less focused on player reaction time being a prime determinant in success. 

Now, I don't think we have seen enough to make definitive judgement one way or the other. So far, as someone else said in this thread, this is the only update that didn't tickle me in my fun zone. The combat actually reminded me of GW2 a bit, and I was churlish, I might say that I half expected the warrior to start bunny hopping while he was running around the gladitor, but I am not going to be churlish so I won't say that. 

Now, there was a lot of potentional there, but the lack of party combat leaves a lot of question. Also, the almost exclusively over third person over the should view was a little strange, I hope we have the option to zoom out. 

The mage animations and spell effects were nice, and even in pre-alpha the armor looked good (disregarding floating weapons). 

[FedericoV]

KylieDog wrote...

Press a button, something awesome happens.

Noooooooooooooooooooo

[SMillar21]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

SMillar21 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Its just baffling that they went on about party focused tactics and strategy, then didn't show any.

You don't know whether its a hopeful sign or a very bad one.

The only thing we have to go off of is a God of War style chain throwing and a W2/Kingdoms of Amular style 1 v 1.

I'm curious who cut the video, since I found that surprising as well.

So there are clips with team work tactics?

Seconded 

Well, if GI did the cutting, that could make sense.

"Show first twenty seconds of combat Friday, then next week (Mon, Wed, Fri) showcase progressively more detailed combat."

It would be my marketing strategy, honestly.

Overthinking my comment guys.  I don't actually know what all was shot for GI (I was doing my own thing while the crew was around).  It's simply a comment of 'it seems weird to put the tactical commentary with the single player footage" and I'm curious if it was a GI cut that ended up putting them together.

As for the party combat?  Well, lets just say you need a baseline of getting one person able to do thing before you can get more than one person doing things.  In other words, probably not quiiite ready to show.

When the videos are released it's the first time I watch them as well.

Makes sense, kind of what I figured too. As for the 1-on-1 combat shown, I thought it looked good, different tactics for different enemys is something I'm looking forward too. 

[In Exile]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
I think you would need to go into the tactics menu and set a command to set what you want to do against certain enemies. Like what DAO and DA2 had. Course they probably have a basic knowledge of what to do already, but I don't see this feature being phased out anytime soon.

Was there a "flank" option? There was in the Advanced Tactics mod, but not in the regular game. You're talking about a step up in...AI combat function, to account for something like this.

Why yes. Yes I am.

If they're focusing on new enemy types that have specific weaknesses and strategies needed, it stands that logically, the tactics options would evolve as well to accomidate this change.

I can see it now:

If (target_has_shield) then circle_strafe

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, circle strafing has no business in RPGs, let alone party-based RPGs.

There has to be a way to deal with the absurdities of telekinetic ogre punches in RPGs. I appreciate that in old 2D games, where the animations were mostly hidden by the graphics, these kinds of issues did not really show up. 

However, these issues do come up in a 3D game. I think the delayed scripted autopause that Slyvius suggested is ideal. I'm going to make a thread about it. 

[Provi-dance]

-
Being able to kite enemies like that.. even with melee attacks. Not good Bioware, not good. (Attacks of opportunity, k?)

-
Attack speed is still too fast. That huge sword has, what, an attack cooldown of less than a second. Double the cooldown across the board and it'll look fine.

+
There's something positive I've noticed in the video too. The damage you deal to enemies. It's in 1-digit numbers. HP inflation seems to be gone.Yay! It's also possible this is a sign of symmetrical combat mechanics. Double yay!
Although the PC seems to attack much faster than the guy with the morningstar, sadly.