182 réponses à ce sujet

[Mirenko]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Mirenko wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Prollector is not better with the PPR.

At best they are tied.

Prollector spec'd for weapon Damage with PPR X + Dark Channel + Ascension Mode + Collector bonus damage + Assault Rifle rail III and Amp V + Warp ammo IV is better than Destroyer.

Numbers, I wanna see 'em.

Who cares numbers? open the game and try it!

[capn233]

Some crazy stuff in this thread. Maybe too much to comment on.

If I were to make any pronouncements about a class that can use Typhoon nearly as well as Destroyer I would have picked Human Soldier since you can actually fire it forever and you get your damage bonus, unlike trying to use Marksman that way. Of course one of the biggest advantages of Destroyer with these sustained fire weapons is the stagger resistance. The other thing is you can run without active powers so you can go HVB and eat the weight penalty (which is too high) with all the miscellaneous ammos. On HSol you probably need to go AR Piercing instead, which will cost you some more damage vs armor.

Likewise, I think if you speak strictly about the Claymore the Human Soldier or Marksman classes might be a better comparison than something like an AIU since they get double barreled Claymores.

It is not a coincidence that the classes with "always on" accuracy and rate of fire boosts are top tier weapon platforms. And it isn't a coincidence that Typhoon and Piranha got substantial nerfs because they were being used very frequently on Destroyer.

[Lucky]

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

[Chromatix]

rlucht wrote...

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

He is better with it. 

"Constant auto stagger on his shoulder" Srsly, why would you spec into that? 

[Ledgend1221]

Chromatix wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

He is better with it. 

"Constant auto stagger on his shoulder" Srsly, why would you spec into that? 

Ever since GS came out, it's a much tougher decision.

MFG is better, but you pretty much need to take GC.
Hawk Missiles are good and you can take the GS no worries.

[Chromatix]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Chromatix wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

He is better with it. 

"Constant auto stagger on his shoulder" Srsly, why would you spec into that? 

Ever since GS came out, it's a much tougher decision.

MFG is better, but you pretty much need to take GC.
Hawk Missiles are good and you can take the GS no worries.

I never take Geth Scanner :\\ 


Cause many reasons. 

Modifié par Chromatix, 17 août 2013 - 03:36 .

[Ledgend1221]

Chromatix wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Chromatix wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

He is better with it. 

"Constant auto stagger on his shoulder" Srsly, why would you spec into that? 

Ever since GS came out, it's a much tougher decision.

MFG is better, but you pretty much need to take GC.
Hawk Missiles are good and you can take the GS no worries.

I never take Geth Scanner : 

!

[Jaun Shepard]

In my experience all infiltrators have better dps than the destroyer though not that much is this true?

[BridgeBurner]

Jaun Shepard wrote...

In my experience all infiltrators have better dps than the destroyer though not that much is this true?

The turian / quarian soldiers have theoretically the best burst dps in the game.... they NEVER reach this however without butchering their TTK, rendering this high burst dps completely pointless, as it takes longer to use debuff + MM than it does to just kill the enemy with weapon + MM.

The GI has the best burst dps.

Followed by the destroyer.

Then... everyone else.

Infiltrators have good spike damage, in reality however, the total dps they can put out (excepting the GI) is not greater than the destroyers.

Modifié par Annomander, 17 août 2013 - 03:49 .

[Heldarion]

Destroyer is good at dealing damage. Just a thought.

[SiMpLyNoir]

rlucht wrote...

Collector is darn good with it but not better.

I want to see the math on this because I thought the Prollector is better with the PPR just because of this:

Mirenko wrote...

Prollector spec'd for weapon Damage with
PPR X + Dark Channel + Ascension Mode + Collector bonus damage + Assault
Rifle rail III and Amp V + Warp ammo IV is better than
Destroyer.

I mean the only thing that'll help the Destroyer's cause is that he is stagger-immune which will help sustain his DPS unlike the Prollector when facing the Geth for example. Other than that I don't see how you can say Destroyer > Prollector with the PPR.

But make no mistake the Destroyer is a damn good weapons platform and anyone who says otherwise is lol-worthy.

[BridgeBurner]

Element 0 wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Element 0 wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Element 0 wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Element 0 wrote...

Destoyer is great with Typhoon/PPR. But without Adrenaline III he's super slow and compared to TGI and AIU - less tanky, cos those 2 have shield recharge at will and better mobility. AIU can also prime EVERYTHING and TGI can strip shields instantly thus saving ammo needed for a kill. 

P.S. With the same consumables TSol will do more damage with the Typhoon after Proxy debuff, he also fires faster, has better accuracy, reloads automatically, better stability + better weight passives. 

You can never use the Tsol's maximum theoretical DPS as a benchmark, as the time it took you to cast prox mines wait for cooldown then pop MM, the destroyer has already destroyed the atlas / prime / banshee.

The Tsol's accuracy and fire rate peak and trough, and as a result give less powerful results. I tested 4 of each boss, versus a MM character (modded so debuff powers had no cooldown) and they all outperformed the destroyer. However, when I restored the cooldown to prox mine the results were drastically different. Without MM, and factoring in having to stop firing to actually get the fire rate bonus, he destroyer pissed all over the MM character's TTK.

The burst numbers are always misleading, as purely and simply the throughput / sustained high damage ultimately belongs to the Destroyer.

 

Tsol may lose a second or two with a heavy weapon such as Typhoon. But it will ****** on Destoyer with a Hurricane. 

And what if I told you that MM DPS with hurricane isn't better than Devastator mode DPS with the typhoon? So while the Tsol might be better with the hurricane, the Destroyer typhoon beats the Tsol Hurricane anyway...

 

VS multiple targets? No. 

Versus multiple targets? Don't really understand what you're getting at there, higher DPS is higher dps, regardless of how many targets there are.

 

On paper. in practice Tsol can PM, empty a clip with bonus damage, pop MM for insta reload and keep shooting. So if you have multiple targets - you're streaming at them constantly. And Turians passive stability and accuracy lets him achieve better DPS than Destroyer in practice. 

With the basic hurricane spread? Good luck hitting anything. Meanwhile your destroyer friend is already at his highest damage, and isn't caring about the fact that your hurricane without MM is innaccurate.

Stability is useless on the hurricane, as it has zero yaw scale.

Stability is good on the revenant, typhoon, spitfire due to the yaw scale; as preventing horizontal recoil will tighten the spread of your shots.

Not using your MM instantly puts your hurricane at a disadvantage as quite frankly you're not going to be hitting many shots at any real distance, nor do you have your bonus fire rate. Your entire argument hinges around the idea that the hurricane has some magical accuracy when outside of MM. Stopping to proxy mine hurts your TTK in almost every case as you'd cause MORE damage (read: kill faster) simply by activating MM.

Let me reiterate... From the testing I've done, under no circumstances ever is it worth your while to use prox mine instead of MM, the potential DPS you lose sets back your TTK too significantly. Only if you are a GI is it worth your while to use prox mine.

In theory, the marksman soldiers can reach the highest DPS in the game... only in theory, as in practice, your TTK would go down the drain and it simply isn't worth it. The destroyer cares not, as his max dps *2.5 is what he can achieve at greater distances... and more frequently throughout the match as he doesn't care for cooldowns.

Marksman classes with debuffs look great on paper, in game they invariably do not perform as advertised.

[Lucky]

SiMpLyNoir wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Collector is darn good with it but not better.

I want to see the math on this because I thought the Prollector is better with the PPR just because of this:

Mirenko wrote...

Prollector spec'd for weapon Damage with
PPR X + Dark Channel + Ascension Mode + Collector bonus damage + Assault
Rifle rail III and Amp V + Warp ammo IV is better than
Destroyer.

I mean the only thing that'll help the Destroyer's cause is that he is stagger-immune which will help sustain his DPS unlike the Prollector when facing the Geth for example. Other than that I don't see how you can say Destroyer > Prollector with the PPR.

But make no mistake the Destroyer is a damn good weapons platform and anyone who says otherwise is lol-worthy.

Being stagger immune is a good bit of it. Also, automatically staggering every mook you aim at is highly useful especially with the PPR. Also, don't discount how big of a damage boost the magazine size bonuses give the destroyer with the PPR. A bigger magazine means he has more "hot" shots after the rev up period and that makes a big difference on the PPR.

@Chromatix: Hawk Launcher is extremely useful, it staggers everything below pyros just by you looking at them, it forces phantoms to either dodge or put up their bubble, and it only costs 100 shields it you spec for reduced penalty. Just make sure to go for refire speed and hydra missiles and it is very handy. Also, sprinting around for grenades with a character who has a movement speed penalty is

[AaronEh]

Annomander wrote...

edit...

Let me reiterate... From the testing I've done, under no circumstances ever is it worth your while to use prox mine instead of MM, the potential DPS you lose sets back your TTK too significantly. Only if you are a GI is it worth your while to use prox mine.

Really.  This is interesting.  Even for high health targets like Banshees, Primes and Atlases this still holds true?

[Ledgend1221]

So, Anno, what would you say abiut choosing either HML or MFG?

[Jaun Shepard]

Sorry for being a noob but what is TTK?

[Mirenko]

Jaun Shepard wrote...

Sorry for being a noob but what is TTK?

time to kill

[SlunkChunk]

Destroyer is just a goofy class for pretending you're a Terminator. Fun, not the most effective, but not the worst, etiher.

Basically it's for when you're tired of filling the primer or detonator role and just want to stagger everything endlessly.

[DHKany]

Annomander wrote...

Jaun Shepard wrote...

In my experience all infiltrators have better dps than the destroyer though not that much is this true?

The turian / quarian soldiers have theoretically the best burst dps in the game.... they NEVER reach this however without butchering their TTK, rendering this high burst dps completely pointless, as it takes longer to use debuff + MM than it does to just kill the enemy with weapon + MM.

The GI has the best burst dps.

Followed by the destroyer.

Then... everyone else.

Infiltrators have good spike damage, in reality however, the total dps they can put out (excepting the GI) is not greater than the destroyers.

So was the pre nerf destroyer pretty much the highest damaging class in the game? 

[Heldarion]

DHKany wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Jaun Shepard wrote...

In my experience all infiltrators have better dps than the destroyer though not that much is this true?

The turian / quarian soldiers have theoretically the best burst dps in the game.... they NEVER reach this however without butchering their TTK, rendering this high burst dps completely pointless, as it takes longer to use debuff + MM than it does to just kill the enemy with weapon + MM.

The GI has the best burst dps.

Followed by the destroyer.

Then... everyone else.

Infiltrators have good spike damage, in reality however, the total dps they can put out (excepting the GI) is not greater than the destroyers.

So was the pre nerf destroyer pretty much the highest damaging class in the game? 

Hunter Mode lost 5% and 2.5% damage bonus.

Devastator mode got nerfed twice, first 5% rate of fire decrease, then 10% rate of fire decrease.

So I'd guess not.

Modifié par Heldarion, 17 août 2013 - 04:25 .

[oO Stryfe Oo]

@ DHKany

I'd imagine so. Pre-nerf Destroyer and Pre-nerf Typhoon kicked all kinds of ass.

I saw a video where some guy doing a Plat solo was killing 2 Atlases in one clip.

Modifié par oO Stryfe Oo, 17 août 2013 - 04:25 .

[BridgeBurner]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

So, Anno, what would you say abiut choosing either HML or MFG?

Multifrags all day every day.

I guess the HML is good and all since the buffs, but I don't think it compares very well to the grenades.

AaronEh wrote...

Annomander wrote...

edit...

Let
me reiterate... From the testing I've done, under no circumstances ever
is it worth your while to use prox mine instead of MM, the potential
DPS you lose sets back your TTK too significantly. Only if you are a
GI is it worth your while to use prox mine.

Really.  This is interesting.  Even for high health targets like Banshees, Primes and Atlases this still holds true?

I got the best results just using marksman. For high health targets (take the typhoon as an example) if you use PM + shoot... your TTK is slower than if you used MM. If you use PM + MM then shoot, your TTK is terrible as you're waiting for cooldowns.. If you just use MM, you get the fire rate bonus right away and your TTK as a consequence is much faster.

The lack of synergy between PM and MM is the problem here. Sure, MM multiplicative bonuses + Prox mine multiplicative bonuses look great when combined on paper, giving the tsol / QMS theoretically the best DPS in game, however, you will struggle to ever get both debuffs running together whilst retaining a decent TTK; as your TTK starts whenever you first hit PM, not when you actually start shooting.

Modifié par Annomander, 17 août 2013 - 04:39 .

[Ledgend1221]

Annomander wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

So, Anno, what would you say abiut choosing either HML or MFG?

Multifrags all day every day.

I guess the HML is good and all since the buffs, but I don't think it compares very well to the grenades.

Even worth giving up the GS?

[Sebastianthorson]

Annomander wrote...

Let me reiterate... From the testing I've done, under no circumstances ever is it worth your while to use prox mine instead of MM, the potential DPS you lose sets back your TTK too significantly. Only if you are a GI is it worth your while to use prox mine.

Because you`re doing it wrong. Don`t fire a prox mine at the enemy - place it at the choke point and wait for the enemy to detonate it.

[Jaun Shepard]

It seems that the PPR would not be that strong on him compared to typhoon since you don't take Rof bonuses.