182 réponses à ce sujet

[Supreme Leech]

Here's a question: what evolutions are recommended for devastator mode for a typhoon Destroyer build? What about for a particle rifle Destroyer build?

[capn233]

tyhw wrote...

Human Soldier is not as good with a Typhoon as a Destroyer, because the Typhoon really likes that accuracy boost.  Maybe as good vs bosses, but you'll be quite a bit slower vs mooks.

That is because nobody is really as good with Typhoon as Destroyer.

The quite a bit versus mooks is a matter of range mostly.  And in any event mooks don't have huge amounts of health anyway.

[Boog_89]

SiMpLyNoir wrote...

Boog_89 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

PPR: Prollector is much better

I disagree immensely, collector dont have extra damage + rate of fire + clip size + stagger immunity.
PPR collector is very good but not as good as on destroyer.

Umm, yes, he does. I'll just keep refering to this post:

Mirenko wrote...

Prollector spec'd for weapon Damage with
PPR X + Dark Channel + Ascension Mode + Collector bonus damage + Assault
Rifle rail III and Amp V + Warp ammo IV

Take away the dark channel and warp ammo combo and the destroyer will be doing more base damage - faster and for a longer time without the worry of having to restart the ramp up time if you get staggered. With the collector You are relying on dark channel been active 100% of the time on every enemy (which it wont be) and taking the time activating the annoying ascenison mode every minute. I'll take my destroyer with incendiary rounds any day. Plus multi frags are manly.

[Kenadian]

Annomander wrote...

Sebastianthorson wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Much better in what way?

I think, he meant the ability to refill Typhoon`s clip with MM w/o wasting time to wind-up again.

In which case you do not gain the RoF bonus, thus wasting the bonus completely. MM cooldown is never short enough to use twice for 1 typhoon clip and activating the power with the typhoon already ramped up means the RoF boost is not applied until you stop firing.

Sebastianthorson wrote...

The graal and crusader are both pretty terrible weapons

They are not. They are long-range weapons for melee classes.

The destroyer is not a melee character. Melee characters don't fight at range, and if you want long ranged punch, take a CSMG, an eagle or a paladin. Light enough to carry alongside a shotgun and perform far better than either of the guns you stated due to not requiring hosting or RNG to decide that your bullet shoots at the right place (lolcrusader)

Sebastianthorson wrote...

 The strength of the Destroyer is automatics, but he's still a better claymore / raider / piranha user than the AIU, due to the passive accuracy and his RoF in the case of the piranha.  The GI is objectively better, the AIU is not as the lack of an accuracy bonus seriously hurts the AIU.

 Since when does accuracy matter at point-blank? 0_0

If you're playing a character with accuracy bonuses, you don't have to fire your shotgun at point blank range to land all 8 pellets on the head. Accuracy is important, as with acccuracy bonuses the effective range of most shotguns significantly increases.

I have done it once before. But it was probably with the power cooldown consumables. I think it was also a strange timing on when I activated the first round of MM. The concept works absolutely like clockwork on an HSol though. Fun stuff.

[BridgeBurner]

lightswitch wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Jaun Shepard wrote...

In my experience all infiltrators have better dps than the destroyer though not that much is this true?

The turian / quarian soldiers have theoretically the best burst dps in the game.... they NEVER reach this however without butchering their TTK, rendering this high burst dps completely pointless, as it takes longer to use debuff + MM than it does to just kill the enemy with weapon + MM.

The GI has the best burst dps.

Followed by the destroyer.

Then... everyone else.

Infiltrators have good spike damage, in reality however, the total dps they can put out (excepting the GI) is not greater than the destroyers.

How are you getting all this? Maybe you're actually talking about TTKs against the largest bosses?

A quick rundown of some kits weapon damage modifiers (using full auto weapons so RoF bonuses can be multiplied in; no racial bonuses; debuffs as specified; full equipment, consumables, mods):

GI (with PM debuff, HM rank 6 specced for damage, firing from cloak):  4.002
Destroyer:  2.84
TSol (without PM debuff,  with Marksman active and specced for RoF in rank 4): 3.11
QSol (without TS debuff, MM active, RoF spec): 3
Human Infiltrator (firing from cloak, with CB debuff applied, without a sniper rifle): 3.46
Drell Infiltrator (from cloak, without debuff): 2.825
TGI (from cloak, with an AR, WITHOUT stims active): 3.36 note: TGI TC AR bonus is multiplicative, right? not reallly sure tbh
TGI (from cloak, with AR, with damage specced stims active): 3.61
AIU (from cloak, with a shotgun, without debuff): 3.44
AIU (from cloak, with shotgun, with debuff, with melee weapon damage bonus active): 4.125
Vanilla Human Solder (ARush specced damage active): 2.675
MQI (from cloak, with SR and TC rank 6 SR bonus, with TS debuff): 4.63

apologies if I got anything wrong, on my lunch break and I don't have time to double check anything.

First thing you'll notice is that there's a ton of things which affect damage modifiers a lot. The biggest one on the list, the MQI, will have to cast Tac Scan to get that which will affect his TTKs considerably, and requires a sniper rifle which doesn't really have the sustained DPS to match the automatic weapons. It's important to note that the GIs damage modifier with a Geth sniper rifle like the Javelin is completely different.

On the other hand, the Destroyer is no where close to the top of the list - in fact the highest damage modifier he can get under his own power is relatively low. For comparison, a Turian Havoc with no additive weapon damage buffs and Cryo Blast applied has a 2.5 damage modifier for 86% of the damage output of the Destroyer, which is not that huge of a difference. According to my calculations a TSent with warp applied and Warp IV ammo will pace or out-DPS a Destroyer versus armor and barriers.

It's worth noting that percent damage difference here isn't as big as those numbers make it seem. If you subtract the Destroyers modifier from the GIs, you get a difference of 116.2% damage. Of course, the actual percentage of damage the Destroyer compared to the GI is dishing out is actually 71%. QMS is doing 75% of the GIs damage. However both of those kits can sustain their damage output considerably longer than the GIs 2.5 sec of TC boost.

Of course all this is just theory, I haven't run any in game tests on TTKs, so if you're getting results that don't match expectations I'd be interested in hearing about it. I'm also somewhat curious if ammo power damage takes advantage of double and triple hit bugs.

Honestly though, IMO if you put all the numbers above aside, the Destroyer has three significant advantages that no other weapons platform has: an always-on weapon buff (no time is ever wasted casting); a really excellent AoE damage power; and really good stagger resistance. It's also really hard to quantify the DPS gains from the magazine upgrades, the accuracy bonus, the stagger resistance, and how you never have to waste any time casting powers. Personally I still rate him as one of the best kits in the game.

TTK is the only important factor. You can look at numbers until you're blue in the face, TTK matters much more than modifiers and damage do. The fastest way to kill any enemy is still the PPR or the typhoon as there aren't other weapons which match their DPS (reegar doesn't count).

Simply using maths and saying X is better than Y is all very well; but in the case of MM + Debuff kits, you can't ever reach that level of DPS without it adversely affecting your TTK, and TTK is the important thing. On paper, the MM + debuff combo looks pretty unbeatable, the reality is that creating this situation in game has an adverse effect on how quickly you will actually kill anything; meaning in reality, this "top burst dps" is completely impractical and unachievable.

The GI and Destroyer are great examples of kits which numerically, might appear inferior to others, but in terms of in game performance they tend to outdo themselves.

[Tybo]

Lightswitch: Here's my list, based on AP IV, and a extended barrel mod:

QMM: (1+.3+.3+.15+.25)*1.5*1.325 (weapon) + .5*1.5*1.25 (ammo) = 4.9125

GI: (1+.8+.225+.175+.3+.15+.25)*1.15*1.2 + .5*1.15*1.2 = 4.692

TSol: (1+.325+.3+.15+.25)*1.5*1.2 + .5*1.5*1.2 = 4.545

If you add in headshots, QMM and TSol will go far ahead due to MM's multiplicative headshot bonus. Using a Geth weapon/sniper will put the GI way ahead, but those all kinda suck except for the Javelin. (GPS is ok vs mooks, but sucks vs bosses. Really only good as a omni-blade carrier/phantom staggerer)

[Schachmatt123]

XFG-65 wrote...

Here's a question: what evolutions are recommended for devastator mode for a typhoon Destroyer build? What about for a particle rifle Destroyer build?

Brophoon: Accuracy and RoF

Particle Rifle: Shield recharge and Clip

Modifié par Schachmatt, 17 août 2013 - 06:21 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Annomander wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

It seems the Destroyer is a Jack of All Trades and Master of None.

== Weapons/DPS ==

- PPR/CSMG: Prollector is much better

25% faster RoF, 20% larger clip and 25%+ higher weapon damage means the Destroyer wins hands down. Simple maths proves you wrong here... 10% < 25%.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
- Lancer/Harrier: TGI is much better

The determining factor is the 25% RoF. In terms of DPS, that already puts the Destroyer past the TGI. The 55% weapon damage and 20% larger clip also give better throughput than the burst DPS of cloak.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
- Typhoon: TSol is much better.

Much better in what way? I already did MM tests, and the destroyer's TTK is still faster using the typhoon. The passive fire rate, clip, accuracy and WD all provide better throughput than MM ever will. Plus, he doesn't get staggered out of the ramp up. So I'm once again going to say your statement is wrong. Cold hard maths.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
- GPS: Any Geth is much better

Again, highly unlikely, and if there is a difference it isn't really significant except the case of the GI, where the cloak cycle works very well with the charge up of the GPS.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
- Graal/Crusader: SI/QFI are much better

The graal and crusader are both pretty terrible weapons, and as neither are full auto, do not make the best use of the destroyer's strength. Accuracy would be the determining factor more than actual damage output however, as both weapons are headshot dependent, and either OHK or 2HK from solid headshots, meaning the weapons are probably equi-powerful in the hands of the destroyer as opposed to the examples you gave.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
- All other Shotguns: GI/AIU are much better

The strength of the Destroyer is automatics, but he's still a better claymore / raider / piranha user than the AIU, due to the passive accuracy and his RoF in the case of the piranha. The GI is objectively better, the AIU is not as the lack of an accuracy bonus seriously hurts the AIU.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
- Sniper Rifles: SI/GI/DAI are much better

The advantage of the destroyer being you can roll a phasic ammo typhoon and be able to destroy bosses at the same rate or faster than sniping infiltrators can, whilst lugging around a sniper rifle if you want to snipe trash. They are not "much better" at all, another statement you are making without any real evidence. Even with the SR damage bonus in TC rank 6, you won't out DPS a phasic ammo typhoon versus bosses, and the TTK of the destroyer vs the infiltrators versus trash comes down to how fast you can hit your target; making player ability the determining factor.




You have posted a great number of statements here, few of which have any maths or evidence supporting them and many of which are completely fallacious.

I don't really see what you've set out to prove here?

Well, I hope you're right in all this. I hope. :happy:

[iOnlySignIn]

Sebastianthorson wrote...

 My question is what is it that the Destroyer is best at?  

 Killing Collectors. Since he doesn`t give a single damn about swarmers blocking his powers.

Yeah that's a good point.

Except that if he can move faster than a drugged sloth he wouldn't be hit by the swarms in the first place.

[lightswitch]

@Annomander
I think you missed the part where the TSol and QSol have higher damage modifiers even before debuffs are applied. All they need is Marksman active. If the Destroyer has shorter TTKs something is bugged somewhere

[cato potato]

lightswitch wrote...

@Annomander
I think you missed the part where the TSol and QSol have higher damage modifiers even before debuffs are applied. All they need is Marksman active. If the Destroyer has shorter TTKs something is bugged somewhere

Maybe Annomander accidentally used his modded uber-Typhoon in his tests  

[iOnlySignIn]

Jaun Shepard wrote...

It seems that the PPR would not be that strong on him compared to typhoon since you don't take Rof bonuses.

Exactly. PPR runs out of ammo too fast. During the recharge time of the PPR the Prollector can cast his Biotic powers, while all the Destroyer can do is stand around and wait like an idiot.

[friedricethem0n]

N7 Destroyer = Mobile Decoy with Pew Pew

[BridgeBurner]

cato_84 wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

@Annomander
I think you missed the part where the TSol and QSol have higher damage modifiers even before debuffs are applied. All they need is Marksman active. If the Destroyer has shorter TTKs something is bugged somewhere

Maybe Annomander accidentally used his modded uber-Typhoon in his tests  

Would give the same result regardless.

The destroyer was around 6 seconds, the QMS was slightly more.

[lightswitch]

Annomander wrote...

cato_84 wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

@Annomander
I think you missed the part where the TSol and QSol have higher damage modifiers even before debuffs are applied. All they need is Marksman active. If the Destroyer has shorter TTKs something is bugged somewhere

Maybe Annomander accidentally used his modded uber-Typhoon in his tests  

Would give the same result regardless.

The destroyer was around 6 seconds, the QMS was slightly more.

was it because the Destroyer didn't have to reload? Thats the only explanation that makes sense

[SiMpLyNoir]

Boog_89 wrote...

Take away the dark channel and warp ammo combo and the destroyer will be doing more base damage - faster and for a longer time without the worry of having to restart the ramp up time if you get staggered. With the collector You are relying on dark channel been active 100% of the time on every enemy (which it wont be) and taking the time activating the annoying ascenison mode every minute. I'll take my destroyer with incendiary rounds any day. Plus multi frags are manly.

I can't tell if you're serious or not with that post. First, DC is not the only primer but it definitely is the main. The beauty of it is if you're lauching it into the mob once you finish one off it jumps to another and if you take duration that's 45 secs of slaughter and the power doesn't miss when launched unless they're in cover. Dark Sphere launched into a mob when not detonated is more than primer enough with DC used to follow if you can but not necessary and just melt all the things. And while AS is annoying to cast everytime you need to use one cast during the start of every round is more than enough to get you through the wave.

ROF as someone mentioned on Destroyer is NOT a plus with PPR because you're burning more ammo just to get to the mulitplier so it being longer is a myth. And stagger immunity is great but manuverability is better than being a turret. And frags are a crutch. You can argue other setups being damn good (Typhoon) for the Destroyer but Prollector is definitely better than Destroyer for PPR.

[Nova-IN]

Alright alright, to anyone saying PPR collector is better than PPR destroyer,

1v1 thunderdome me babby.

[Arctican]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Jaun Shepard wrote...

It seems that the PPR would not be that strong on him compared to typhoon since you don't take Rof bonuses.

Exactly. PPR runs out of ammo too fast. During the recharge time of the PPR the Prollector can cast his Biotic powers, while all the Destroyer can do is stand around and wait like an idiot.

That's why you take the Magazine upgrade on Devastator Mode for the PPR. That should be more than sufficient in killing what you need to kill. Prollector is not a bad kit for PPR, but Destroyer is still better with it.

[Arctican]

SiMpLyNoir wrote...

Boog_89 wrote...

Take away the dark channel and warp ammo combo and the destroyer will be doing more base damage - faster and for a longer time without the worry of having to restart the ramp up time if you get staggered. With the collector You are relying on dark channel been active 100% of the time on every enemy (which it wont be) and taking the time activating the annoying ascenison mode every minute. I'll take my destroyer with incendiary rounds any day. Plus multi frags are manly.

I can't tell if you're serious or not with that post. First, DC is not the only primer but it definitely is the main. The beauty of it is if you're lauching it into the mob once you finish one off it jumps to another and if you take duration that's 45 secs of slaughter and the power doesn't miss when launched unless they're in cover. Dark Sphere launched into a mob when not detonated is more than primer enough with DC used to follow if you can but not necessary and just melt all the things. And while AS is annoying to cast everytime you need to use one cast during the start of every round is more than enough to get you through the wave.

ROF as someone mentioned on Destroyer is NOT a plus with PPR because you're burning more ammo just to get to the mulitplier so it being longer is a myth. And stagger immunity is great but manuverability is better than being a turret. And frags are a crutch. You can argue other setups being damn good (Typhoon) for the Destroyer but Prollector is definitely better than Destroyer for PPR.

The thing is even with the ROF hurting the amount of ammo spent in charged mode, he's still killing units faster and he has the magazine upgrade on Devastator Mode to negate those wasted ammo. And no, stagger immunity is better than manuverbility for the PPR because so getting stunned out of hot mode drastically increases TTK.

[Kenadian]

SiMpLyNoir wrote...

Boog_89 wrote...

Take away the dark channel and warp ammo combo and the destroyer will be doing more base damage - faster and for a longer time without the worry of having to restart the ramp up time if you get staggered. With the collector You are relying on dark channel been active 100% of the time on every enemy (which it wont be) and taking the time activating the annoying ascenison mode every minute. I'll take my destroyer with incendiary rounds any day. Plus multi frags are manly.

I can't tell if you're serious or not with that post. First, DC is not the only primer but it definitely is the main. The beauty of it is if you're lauching it into the mob once you finish one off it jumps to another and if you take duration that's 45 secs of slaughter and the power doesn't miss when launched unless they're in cover. Dark Sphere launched into a mob when not detonated is more than primer enough with DC used to follow if you can but not necessary and just melt all the things. And while AS is annoying to cast everytime you need to use one cast during the start of every round is more than enough to get you through the wave.

ROF as someone mentioned on Destroyer is NOT a plus with PPR because you're burning more ammo just to get to the mulitplier so it being longer is a myth. And stagger immunity is great but manuverability is better than being a turret. And frags are a crutch. You can argue other setups being damn good (Typhoon) for the Destroyer but Prollector is definitely better than Destroyer for PPR.

Here's the fun part, the biggest chunk of that damage for the Prollector, the Warp IV, the Destroyer benefits just as much from it. There's 3 other players in a game, there's a good chanec there will be a biotic primer to piggy back off.

[Tallgeese_VII]

Destroyer has passive accuracy boost + stagger immune + bigger clip + no weight limit..
and this silly debate is still going on?

I once said my collector is better with PPR than destroyer.. but it was simply because PPR/destroyer won`t make most out of thermal clip & recharge waiting. but more importantly, I use hard cover a lot while shooting so PPR collector is just fine in my case. If a person does not use ramp up weapon without good use of hard cover, one warp/rocket from boss out of no where will mess you up instantly in real game.

Destroyer is ridiculously easy to play as the best gun turret kit as described.
Jack of all trade is term wrongly used here. He is easily the best with most weapons in this game.

I took my TS with Typhoon against 3 platium prime few times before their stagger nerf, and TS with Typhoon was joke compared to stagger immune destoyer. TS couldn`t even walk.

You might think TGI/AIU is better but it is simply because they are more broken due to their poor healing ability design.

[lightswitch]

Kenadian wrote...

SiMpLyNoir wrote...

Boog_89 wrote...

Take away the dark channel and warp ammo combo and the destroyer will be doing more base damage - faster and for a longer time without the worry of having to restart the ramp up time if you get staggered. With the collector You are relying on dark channel been active 100% of the time on every enemy (which it wont be) and taking the time activating the annoying ascenison mode every minute. I'll take my destroyer with incendiary rounds any day. Plus multi frags are manly.

I can't tell if you're serious or not with that post. First, DC is not the only primer but it definitely is the main. The beauty of it is if you're lauching it into the mob once you finish one off it jumps to another and if you take duration that's 45 secs of slaughter and the power doesn't miss when launched unless they're in cover. Dark Sphere launched into a mob when not detonated is more than primer enough with DC used to follow if you can but not necessary and just melt all the things. And while AS is annoying to cast everytime you need to use one cast during the start of every round is more than enough to get you through the wave.

ROF as someone mentioned on Destroyer is NOT a plus with PPR because you're burning more ammo just to get to the mulitplier so it being longer is a myth. And stagger immunity is great but manuverability is better than being a turret. And frags are a crutch. You can argue other setups being damn good (Typhoon) for the Destroyer but Prollector is definitely better than Destroyer for PPR.

Here's the fun part, the biggest chunk of that damage for the Prollector, the Warp IV, the Destroyer benefits just as much from it. There's 3 other players in a game, there's a good chanec there will be a biotic primer to piggy back off.

IIRC, the Collector racial bonus gets multiplied into base weapon damage before ammo power damage gets calculated so the Collector does actually get more mileage from warp rounds. What doesn't make sense to me about this Destroyer-CA debate is that the Collector has crap damage against shields. It's a big drawback IMO.

[palmof40sorrows]

Mirenko wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Prollector is not better with the PPR.

At best they are tied.

Prollector spec'd for weapon Damage with PPR X + Dark Channel + Ascension Mode + Collector bonus damage + Assault Rifle rail III and Amp V + Warp ammo IV is better than Destroyer.

It seems the main point though is that if you get staggered out of the ramp up it doesn't matter, which means the Destroyer has a better chance of having higher damage output since there is no stagger.

[palmof40sorrows]

Chromatix wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

He is better with it. 

"Constant auto stagger on his shoulder" Srsly, why would you spec into that? 

Because it's good? Are you seriously still in the camp that thinks HML are garbage? Ugh.

[Chromatix]

palmof40sorrows wrote...

Chromatix wrote...

rlucht wrote...

Unstaggerable with a constant auto stagger on his shoulder + extended magazine are pretty incredible bonuses for the PPR. Collector is darn good with it but not better.

He is better with it. 

"Constant auto stagger on his shoulder" Srsly, why would you spec into that? 

Because it's good? Are you seriously still in the camp that thinks HML are garbage? Ugh.

Because they -are- garbage and aren't worth 21 points that could be invested into Survivability, Spawn Nuking (MFG is Cobra for Geth on Gold, also OHK Dragoons) or Weapon Damage?

Modifié par Chromatix, 17 août 2013 - 07:47 .