85 réponses à ce sujet

[Cablefish]

I mean it just bugs me. In my oppinion NWN had a few features that make people like us spend money on it 10 years after it came out:
1: A general purpose roleplaying system integrated in their game mechanics.
2: Toolset and modability support.
3: Multiplayer freedom to DM and host the kind of server for the kind of game you want.

Theres lots of games that nails 2/3 of the above. Examples like minecraft gets 2 and 3 right. The elderscrolls series nails 1 and 2 but bethesda decides to make a theme park looking MMO instead of just adding multiplayer support into their next game which really saddens me. 

Why on earth haven't anyone done it since? Especially now with the kickstarter hype making gamers spend tons of money based on mostly nostalgia. If someone created a game with those three core features they'd have a classic staying alive for 10 more years.

Have i missed anything? Why cant any developer see that Neverwinter Nights had a recipe for something great and boil up  a new game on the recipe? Is games like World of Warcraft to blame like it this clever video seems to suggest: 


Anyways. It just bugs me...

Edit: typos

Modifié par Cablefish, 17 août 2013 - 01:29 .

[Gruftlord]

that is a good channel. thanks for sharing.

i think it is in general harder to monetarize a game such as NWN, compared to the more restricitve online games of today. not only do the examples of how the MMOs worked out well for the companies limit the amout of free roam games that are produced today (even more so those with DM clients), but also the negative examples of past games (in between today and Neverwinter nights) that did try to become even closelly as successfull as WOW, but failed to make even a profit.

Modifié par Gruftlord, 17 août 2013 - 04:50 .

[Cablefish]

Hmm. How would we go about creating a game like NWN?

Just play along. I know the scale of the project but i'm kinda serious about it anyway. Or at least in suggesting it to someone who might pull it off. Or failing that having an intelligent discussion about why it can/can't be done.

Lets take a look at the resources out there:
1: Lots of roleplaying systems that are opensource and could serve the purpose without getting into copyright issues.
2: Lots of nostalgic players approaching the age of 30 who are willing to throw money at stuff as soon as they hear beloved titles of games or game companies they grew up with.

I'm not thinking cutting edge graphics, talented voice acting, huge budgets. Just the roleplaying system. Userfriendly toolset. Custom multiplayer hosting possibilities. And maybe a campaign to give players something from the beginning.

I'm guessing we should start by getting laid off people from Bioware, Black Isle or Interplay involved and create an honest looking youtube video with lots of dreams and ideas,

[Gruftlord]

Shadowrun Returns, it's an upgrade over the original, but not even close to what Neverwinter night delivers. Fan Funded
Neverwinter, started with a few promising idea. not a spiritual successor, but the licence bearer of old Neverwinter Nights. Corporate decision/company changes killed what could have been. took a different direction.
Sui Generis, Fan funded. looked promising. currently they have scrapped plans to release the toolset. not enough funding to enhance that to a consumer level. not enough funding for multiplayer support.

there have been attempts, but all fall flat and short to provide what those still clinging to Neverwinter Nights are looking for.
it was not for lack of trying.
so i'm not sure if "try again, try harder" is the way to go. things get in the way of those who attempt such a thing. money (or lack theireof to pull it through) and corporate decisions among others. i think a new idea has to come for those looking for a PC enhanced DM campaign experience. a new idea about how computer DMing can be brought to the next level.
i'll throw my money at whoever has a convincing idea for that

Modifié par Gruftlord, 18 août 2013 - 10:13 .

[Asymmetric]

I agree with Gruftlord on this. There is just not enough money to be made. I think that no major studio will make a game like NWN any time soon. While there are a lot of RPGs with a toolset, they all lack the multiplayer part (and some of them don't allow direct editing of terrain like in NWN 2 or NWN 1). However a couple of Indie studios have some interesting projects, which seem to come quite close to NWN. I personally have high hopes for Divinity Original Sin, but there is not enough information about its toolset yet.

[Cablefish]

Great! Didn't know about Divinity. Hope that the system allows for PVP and real time combat. Otherwise it might limit the roleplaying potential of the playerhosted servers.

I think both your points prove that indie titles can get pretty damn close to the game we want and i'm really hopeful for the future. Lets keep alert and see if something pops up.

[Asymmetric]

They said real time combat will be an option for user made campaigns. The main problem is that as far as I know only 6 players can play a module/campaign at the same time. So unfortunately no persistent worlds will be possible.

[Cablefish]

Aww. So close and yet so far...

[Eternal Phoenix]

Still close enough. It's offering everything NWN offers at foundation minus the persistent world.

You still can create your own world and quests and then adventure in them with friends. Other than that I don't think you'll find another RPG for a while with a DM system like NWN. Original Sin will have to do for you.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 19 août 2013 - 12:25 .

[MagicalMaster]

Part of the problem is companies worrying about return on investment - they want to be able to either keep selling new games or at least new expansions. Making a game like NWN at this point would still be doable but it would require a very different system of payment to work - a much higher up-front cost, some sort of subscription model, or something else entirely. It's simply not worth making a user friendly toolset for most games.

[KlatchainCoffee]

Too rushed off my feet right now to contribute properly to this discussion, but my thoughts have wondered back repeatedly to this very topic.

Second Life (of which I am in no ways a fan) comes into mind, somewhat, in terms of continuous infusion of the game with original content and money being made off people building their own stuff in a virtual world. I'm not really sure of their business model, but I think a lot of other games get rich off making many people repeatedly spend 'pennies' on bits and bobs, rather than make them pay extortionate lump sums.

So, the idea here is to think of a business model that would get someone to create and maintain what we want for a reasonable price. Something that would 'milk some pennies' off people for - servers - new content - special features might work, but my feeling is it might require an investment into a marketing campaign equal to the investment into the development to make sure it has enough people using it to be economically viable.

I think it is not completely impossible to create something of top-notch quality/functionality AND economically viable, but - we are likely talking of 'lottery-winning' levels of probability of that actually happening.

[SuperFly_2000]

In response to the original poster.

I actually don't agree with most you here that the game only had theese features.

For me it is the game design ITSELF and GAMEPLAY that differs so much from the mainstream MMORPG's of today.

If there was a modern MMORPG that was like NWN I would definately play it....EVEN THOUGH it might not have a toolset or perhaps not even a DM (at least not in the sense we are used to).

All I would need is an MMORPG designed for isometric view and with a combat/roleplay system at least near D&D.

[SuperFly_2000]

...and yes...it is very strange that no company is looking at this game really...I mean given the popularity still there must be something in the gameplay here right...

Instead they seem to be focusing on making iterations of WoW or perhaps not exactly WoW but on similar systems of WoW.

So they are making like Star Wars WoW, Manga WoW, Scary WoW, Superhero WoW, Startrek WoW and so on...

Yes I know that people who play theese games might see a difference in them but I don't. It is basically the same game just with another backstory/setting.

It is a shame that Bioware became too big at the time and couldn't afford a high risk project like NWN2. It is a shame that Dragon Age is only single player and that it looks so consoly that it hurts my eyes...even if the first one actually looked good. If it only had multiplayer/Persistent Worlds and if only it wasn't so dumbed down.

When Bioware FINALLY return to making a multiplayer game (10 years late to the party)....guess what they make. Yes, you guessed it! An iteration of WoW! Yaaay!

Please understand that I am not really blaming Bioware or anyone, this is just how the industry goes.

To return to the initial point the question remains. How did not any smaller company not pick up the towel? I don't want to start an NWN1 vs NWN2 war here but I still think that NWN2 really did more harm than good (out of a multiplayer perspective). It only seemed to lure some wary NWN1 players into trying thoose multiplayer servers only to then drop interest in the NWN series as whole. Sure, thoose players might have been lost anyway...but there was a drop there for no good reason I think.

So what I am saying is NWN2 didn't turn out good. It was not the NWN2 that I wanted and had hoped for.

But still....10 years have passed.....why no NWN3-ish game? Well I am going in a circle here. We had contenders but they where all iterations of WoW (put Neverwinter here or D&D Online).

I am even starting to hope for a profesional company to make something like a "super PW"....I mean if its good enough I'd pay for that. I know that it might not be possible for numerous reasons but lets play with the idea.

But then again...if they are putting a huge effort in...why not make a new game from scratch?

I mean...niched games have a good chance of success and are sought after. Look at World of Tanks...who thought that would become as big as it is today

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 20 août 2013 - 12:04 .

[AndarianTD]

I think it's primarily because no game company is willing to take a chance on a new business model that would make it profitable. NWN spawned an enormous amount of creative effort from modders and PWs, but the developer and publisher had no way to make money from it. In the end, that's what they're in business for, so it's no surprise to see that it's never been a priority since.

What killed -- and still kills -- any serious prospect for a future NWN-like game is the "you can build with our tools but you can't charge for it" mind-set. What's really needed is the combination of a general-purpose CRPG that's designed to be truly moddable, with a business model along the lines of the mobile app market. A company that invested in providing such an infrastructure in exchange for a percentage, one that modders could build on and profit from, could revolutionize game modding and development.

Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath.

[MagicalMaster]

I was sort of thinking they'd have to do something like a box fee plus a fee to play online - and paying a monthly fee gives you multiplayer access. And possibly have a site for uploading content that costs a few dollars a month to have access to as well - an official NWVault of sorts for the people only wanting single player mods.

But then I suspect a lot of the NWN community would then whine about monthly fees.

[AmstradHero]

A lot of posts here have glossed over a few key issues here:

• Making a game/mod is difficult. It's time consuming, it's challenging and requires a lot of ongoing dedication.
• In general, the public's standards for what is a "good" game has only risen since NWN's release. Especially for AAA titles, you cannot get away with a game that doesn't have the latest and greatest technology. That means graphics, sound, voice, music, etc.
• A toolset has to undergo a LOT of QA in order for it to be released as a "commercial" product. BioWare put a LOT of effort into making the NWN toolset usable by the general public, and a fair amount of effort into supporting it. A lot more than would be required for an internal toolset where they can develop in house workarounds for their problems.
• A lot of game engines now use licensed "middleware" to provide certain assets to the game. The developer/publisher will find it almost impossible to be able to incorporate this middleware into a publicly releasable toolset because then they will effectively have to pay the licensing costs for that middleware for each person who gets the toolset.
• AAA games cost a LOT of money to make these days because of the aforementioned costs of the above. That means that each sale not only has to recoup the development costs, but also the costs of the associated licensing, ongoing support, and other such costs.
• Because of (1) & (2), it's typically not possible for modders to release mods of a "marketable" quality within a "marketable" timeframe for most gamers. How long did it take before the "really good" modules came out for NWN1 and NWN2? In most cases, a long time after the bulk of the people who bought the game had moved on.
• Mods are PC only. Getting content onto consoles and through the QA processes of MS/Sony are both difficult hoops to jump and fraught with compatibility issues.
• The quality of mods is variable. Are mods going to be given ongoing support? Do they have bugs? Are they balanced?
• How do the developers regain money from the extra investment that they have had to invest to get the toolset out? How can they charge for mods when the overwhelming expectation is that MODS ARE FREE?
• If a way is worked out to charge for mods, how do the developers prevent/reduce piracy? How much money does the mod developer get versus the developer of the game? What happens if someone complains that the mod doesn't work/crashes their system/or doesn't deliver what it advertised?

That's just ten challenges and difficulties that I can think of off the top of my head.  The short answer as to why developers don't do this is because it's very difficult, doesn't necessarily offer any real gains for them except for a small community of die hard fans (which a decent game is likely to get anyway), and is very expensive.  A publisher that is fronting the money for a developer and the salaries of all their staff and associated costs is not going to see it as a good investment, and as such is not going to put their money towards it.

Making games is a business, and things like Unity and the Unreal Development Kit have made it easier for aspiring groups to make their own games free of things like IP (Intellectual Property) issues and potentially provide them with the ability to make money from their efforts.

I'm still working on my Dragon Age mod because I've done so much work that I can't not release it now. Rest assured, however, that once that is done, I won't be doing any more modding on other people's IP/games. I'll be looking at creating my own game with a licensed engine or joining a dev group doing that.

[rogueknight333]

I think AmstradHero's list of some of the major obstacles is a good one. In particular, the increasing focus of major developers in the years after NWN came out on cinematic elements like the latest graphics, voice-acting, etc., in preference to core gameplay has made it a lot harder to make modder-friendly games.

Several other issues that I think play a role:

1) The "sweet spot" for a toolset between versatility/potential and ease of use. 

NWN managed to achieve an almost perfect balance between these two. It is relatively easy to learn how to use the NWN toolset, and once learned, one can produce content with it relatively quickly. At the same time, it is versatile enough to enormously modify the type of gaming experience offered for those who wish to do so. Most game toolsets fall short in one or other of these areas: either the toolset is too simple and does not allow one to make anything all that different from the official campaign it is using as a base, or else it requires more technical skills (or simply more time to work with) than the typical amateur would-be modder is likely to have.

For me personally this aspect of NWN is enormously important. If I need to, I can throw together a basic area in the NWN toolset (excluding "meatier" elements like scripts, conversations and encounters) in less than 15 minutes (in fact, I will probably spend a lot more time than that fussing over details, but it is still a relatively quick process). Given that I, one guy working off and on in his spare time, am embarked on the insanely ambitious project of making an RPG campaign that rivals professionally produced ones in size and scope, that kind of ease of use is absolutely vital. Since I also aim to surpass such campaigns in quality (at least as far as my particular tastes as a player are concerned), I also need a toolset sufficiently versatile to alter the way many things work by default, by, for example, creating a more robust ethical system in which all kinds of actions a PC performs can affect alignment. I find it hard to imagine even attempting to do what I am doing with anything other than the NWN toolset.

The trouble, of course, with regards to any new game imitating this advantage, is that balancing two contradictory elements in a satisfactory way is by its nature always going to be tricky and difficult to pull off.

2) D&D

One reason there has been no NWN3 (by which term I include a game that would be a de facto NWN3 even if it did not use that specific name), is that Atari owned the rights to make D&D related CRPGs, and since after releasing NWN2 Atari was in the process of both going bankrupt and getting sued over those rights it was not in a position to do much with them. At the same time, of course, its possession prevented anyone else from doing anything D&D related either.

One could argue that this should not have mattered because there is no reason why a toolset-oriented, modder-friendly game must be based on D&D. While I would certainly agree it was not necessary, I do think being based on D&D was enormously helpful in making NWN modding what it was. It provided a set of rules and content that was not overly specific to a particular storyline or setting, and a base of players who were highly accustomed to thinking of their game as modular and customizable (in D&D a campaign could often be essentially the creation of the DM, even if using published materials as a base).

3) Lack of awareness that this particular gaming niche even exists and might be worth catering to.

One has to remember that there are a lot of people, even people involved in gaming, who are barely aware, or not aware at all, of the existence of the NWN modding scene. One still encounters people who, if they know about NWN at all, still somehow think that the official campaigns are the main thing it offers. The brief description of the game on GOG (for one example of this blind spot) only talks about the official campaigns and makes no mention of the toolset, the masses of community created modules and content, PWs, etc. (albeit some of the user reviews do refer to some of these elements). The game developers who make official campaigns, of course, are understandably especially likely to focus on them, and I suspect very few of them have any clue as to just how much the NWN community has been doing with this game. If developers do not even know a potential market exists, then naturally it will not occur to them to make a product for it.

[MagicalMaster]

/derail

rogueknight333 wrote...

Given that I, one guy working off and on in his spare time, am embarked on the insanely ambitious project of making an RPG campaign that rivals professionally produced ones in size and scope

It does.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Since I also aim to surpass such campaigns in quality.

You did.

/rerail

[Lazarus Magni]

Umm... wow... don't get me started on this... So much unseen potential for developers, and missed enjoyment for us consumers.

[Kellendor]

 What is the latest news on that Neverwinter game that was supposed to come out last year or whenever? (Soon?)

[AndarianTD]

I just want to second RogueKnight's comment on the thread. Every word of it was spot on. AmstradHero's remarks were very insightful as well.

(And just for the record on the /derail comment, I concur as well. I haven't gotten to the sequel yet, but Swordflight 1 was excellent.)

Modifié par AndarianTD, 21 août 2013 - 12:22 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Kellendor wrote...

 What is the latest news on that Neverwinter game that was supposed to come out last year or whenever? (Soon?)

It's officially live and out of beta.  Called simply "Neverwinter", it seems to be an action-y game, but being run on the developer's servers as a single world means that it's basically an MMO with very limited potential for individual builders (no adding new art assets, no real customizing of loot for players, no creating your own gameworld, etc.).

I've played it a bit, but it doesn't come anywhere close to what NWN and NWN2 offer for player/builder creativity through their "Foundry" (their toolset, which you get to use after hitting a certain level in-game) or through the game.  And being a "free to play" game means you're constantly reminded that the coolest stuff is for people that either pay actual money for things or play 24/7 to earn enough of the in-game currency to trade (at a lousy exchange rate) for the out-of-game currency that the cooler stuff requires.

[Urk]

I've taken the liberty of getting to know "the Foundry", Neverwinter's building tools. They were developed and tested on Star Trek online. I have built 2 "missions" using these tools and commited myself to one more, but when that's done I am not going back.

In short... the Foundry sucks.

You cannot add ANY art assets or ANY loot to your mission beyond random monster drops. Some builders are offering rewards out of their own pockets, but in short, player missions are pretty much ignored in favor of loot rich official ones and grinding.

The mapping tools are VERY limited. You cannot build terrains, you can only modify existing maps by adding placable walls so everything suffers from a cloying sense of sameness.

You cannot alter creature factions, so you can only create hostile federation personnel (for example) by placing a kligon or some other hostile and applying a federation skin, so while they my look like feds they won't use fed tactics or weapons. 

I could go on all day. The Foundry is just not a suitable tool for even a hobby builder. It's a toy for people who don't know or care to know anything about design.

There's no point in comparing Neverwinter to NWN. They are simply not the same thing. NWN is a brand new fully loaded GT-40 and Neverwinter is a 1981 Escort.

Modifié par Urk, 21 août 2013 - 02:57 .

[kamal_]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

Kellendor wrote...

 What is the latest news on that Neverwinter game that was supposed to come out last year or whenever? (Soon?)

It's officially live and out of beta.  Called simply "Neverwinter", it seems to be an action-y game, but being run on the developer's servers as a single world means that it's basically an MMO with very limited potential for individual builders (no adding new art assets, no real customizing of loot for players, no creating your own gameworld, etc.).

I've played it a bit, but it doesn't come anywhere close to what NWN and NWN2 offer for player/builder creativity through their "Foundry" (their toolset, which you get to use after hitting a certain level in-game) or through the game.  And being a "free to play" game means you're constantly reminded that the coolest stuff is for people that either pay actual money for things or play 24/7 to earn enough of the in-game currency to trade (at a lousy exchange rate) for the out-of-game currency that the cooler stuff requires.

Neverwinter Online is basically multiplayer Diablo/Torchlight, just with a different camera. It's a generic MMO that got DnD text cut and pasted on content. It really has nothing to do with Neverwinter Nights or DnD.

As for the Foundry, I had beta Foundry access. Foundry is a mission editor. There are three quests, kill x, click x, go
to x. Even basic functionality such as picking random number involves building a rube goldberg contraption on the map.

Foundry is run by a clique of buddies, and their friends who are Cryptic employees posing as regular people (not kidding, I've caught several like this one ). If you make a quest that threatens to reach the best list, a group of authors will vote your quest down via the anonymous voting system. Complain about these things, and the community mods will ignore terms of service violating posts about you, and permaban you, as I was. Someone even went to the trouble of pretending to be me on Reddit in order to incite people there to downvote my quests (I've since deleted my quests), my Neverwinter Online username is the title of the "most controversial" forum thread in the Neverwinter subforum.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Urk wrote...

There's no point in comparing Neverwinter to NWN. They are simply not the same thing.

I agree.

I gave the newer game the benefit of the doubt until I was able to play it...and it's defintely not anything like NWN or NWN2.  I even ran it until my rogue was 60th level, and in that time his daggers have had a total of two different appearances (because a rogue can evidently only use daggers) and all his gear is 90% bland brown.

For a player less accustomed to getting to change how things look, or used to playing games where your character only gets to use a single type of weapon, I could see the appeal. It's cheap (free, if you don't want the cool stuff), and doesn't require any knowledge of game mechanics (no worrying about things like attack rolls or spell variety as long as you keep the camera orientated so it's targeting your foe).  Kind of like a first person shooter, but minus the guns and plus a bigger time commitment.

For a builder and custom content guy like myself, I find it almost insulting that it carries the Neverwinter name.  It's like they were hoping just the name and a very limited "toolset" would be enough to get me to invest a lot of time (and money) in their game. NWN earned my money (I bought NWN, SoU, HotU, and Infinite Dungeons over the years, then another copy from gog.com), Neverwinter won't make any money from me, no matter how many times the game tells me someone else paid for a key to have a chance to get a nightmare for a mount.