1132 réponses à ce sujet

[Confused-Shepard]

Anyone agree? Just finished Mass Effect 1 for the PS3 for the first time and I am amzaed at what a masterpeiece it truly is. They should have altered the ending to say that the since the shortcut to the Galaxy has been cut off, it will take the Reapers at least a millenia to reach the edges of our galaxy. Shepard suggests that even so we should not get complacent and prepare for the future. Meanwhile there are other, closer battles to be fought and Shepard will keep on fighting. 

Msss Effect 2 could feature the death of Shepard and playing as a new charater tryng to solve his mysterious death (Death Of Shepard! Featuring Cyborg-Shep, Shep-Boy/Shep-Girl, The Commander and Element Zero aka Steel) and also that off the new Collector threat. Your choices do import and the ME 1 charecacter's you meet reflect that. You find Shep half way through and even becomes a squadmate having the same class as in ME 1. 

Mass Effect 3 could feature dual compaigns with Shep and ME 2 Protag and some other end the world plot.
Also, I dislike deciding the fate of the galaxy or species or very important faction because it means we don't get to see the consequences of our actions in the next game.

[Confused-Shepard]

StreetMagic wrote...

Could have worked maybe (depends on execution, I guess). I do think the Reapers were a waste of a good sci-fi setting though. There's so much potential and other things to do.

Next time you create something that can wipe out a galaxy - don't make your galaxy so interesting. It's easier to say goodbye that way.

I think that is the greatest coompliment an author can recieve. Imagine when Game Of Thrones ends!
Fans: No George! Don't stop! You have so many more character's to kill and incest to write!

[Cainhurst Crow]

This does not sound like a good idea to me, especially shepard being brought back to life, being auto-controlled in ME2, and the reapers just not being a thing in mass effect. Collectors would still not make sense, neither would the reapers being made from goo, and all it does is kick the can down the road which will eventually need to happen. And it's not like the end of the reaper plot would be any better in the future than it was now. In fact, all you do is make the reapers into a deus ex machina machine with tons and tons of big orginizations working for it you can just dust off and fight in every game.

And if that's not the case, than why even have the reapers in the first place? Here's an idea, retcon ME1 to remove reapers from the game entirely. There, problem solved. Now nobody needs to worry about bad writing ever again, because the source of bad writing is gone forever.

[KaiserShep]

Forcing players to be a new protagonist sounds a great deal worse, in my opinion. It's bad enough that Shepard is forced to die as a vehicle to begin affiliating the character with Cerberus, but being forced to die and replaced in the sequel would be considerably off-putting.

Other than the sequel hook that keeps the reaper plot going at the end of ME1, the entire setup from beginning to end leaves an elephant in the room that's impossible to ignore in the trilogy's narrative. The entire MEU as we know it is on account of the reapers. Things like indoctrination, the geth's nigh religious veneration of the reapers, and the entire concept of galactic cycles leaves far too much to simply abandon after the first installment.

[Kataphrut94]

The problem with the Reapers is that they weren't a good villain for the type of game that Mass Effect is. They'd be better suited to a strategy game or a space-flight sim where you can actually deal with them directly rather than through various proxies. Indoctrination, husks, Cerberus, the Crucible, Kalros, etc. are all contrivances to make an unsuitable enemy work in a third-person shooter action RPG. That's why everyone liked fighting the Collectors even though they were such crap villains on paper.

[o Ventus]

The idea for ME1 seems okay, but no to 2 and 3.

[David7204]

That's stupid.

No.

If there is no conflict, there is no story.

People make claims that Mass Effect is about the characters and therefore the Reaper plot is unnecessary. It doesn't work that way at all. Few of the moments people enjoy about the characters could have existed without a threat on the level of the Reapers.

Modifié par David7204, 18 août 2013 - 08:56 .

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

That's stupid. 

It's no more stupid then what we got though,

Modifié par Fixers0, 18 août 2013 - 08:56 .

[Kataphrut94]

StreetMagic wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The problem with the Reapers is that they weren't a good villain for the type of game that Mass Effect is. They'd be better suited to a strategy game or a space-flight sim where you can actually deal with them directly rather than through various proxies. Indoctrination, husks, Cerberus, the Crucible, Kalros, etc. are all contrivances to make an unsuitable enemy work in a third-person shooter action RPG. That's why everyone liked fighting the Collectors even though they were such crap villains on paper.

Even in space sims though it's still more fun to fight equal armies. Fighting Reapers would just mean you get clobbered all the same. The thrill of space sims is in the chase, the dog fighting.. the small scale stuff.

Unfortunately there aren't games like this around these days anyways (RIP Wing Commander). So it's a moot point.

Yeah, but a space sim would encourage the narrative to make them beatable. Not easy, but beatable. It'd be like Luke Skywalker taking down the Death Star if the Death Star was a giant squid monster with an obnoxiously loud voice. You still have the occuli, Destroyers and geth to provide some small-scale dogfights in between the capital ships.

I know space sims aren't popular these days, but they're crying out for a comeback and the Mass Effect universe is the perfect place to do it.

[CynicalShep]

David7204 wrote...

That's stupid.

No.

Never saw this coming

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think killing Shepard at the start of ME2 was totally unnecessary especially considering the plot to ME2 did absolutely nothing to advance the plot of Mass Effect one bit. It was totally contrived and stupid, especially since they brought back Shepard in the first scene. It was a contrived way of forcing you to work for Cerberus.

The Alliance "couldn't risk war with the Terminus Systems" so there was a "plot killing" of Shepard to have Shepard take on the Collectors to protect human colonies, yet the Alliance was there anyway in the form of the VS and providing advisors and other assistance in the form of James Vega fighting the Collectors, so it made absolutely no sense other than to introduce the obstructionist for ME3, The Illusive Man.

They could have done ME2 without the Cerberus plot. However, without the death of Shepard, the council might not have been able to shine on Shepard about the reapers like that, but there still could have been the Collector plot, and Shepard could have worked as a Spectre in the Terminus. Probably would have to be on a non-Alliance frigate, though which I'm sure the Council or the Alliance could have arranged. There would still be conflict.

I agree the Reapers were a bad fit for the MEU. Overpowered bad guys like that are no fun. Space sims like Tie Fighter Defender of the Empire were great. They were a hell of a lot more fun. And you can have camaraderie in a less one sided war. Or is that not "heroic" enough.

Take a sports event. What's more exciting to watch? A game where the score is 62-0 for the first 50 minute then the team loses 62-63? or one that is a see-saw battle the entire way and ends up 62-63? I'll tell you what. You've probably turned off the first game after 10 minutes, then heard on the news the other team won, and only the die hard fans stayed in the stadium and watched the full game because most left at half time. The second game you watched with your friends. That's my point.

[David7204]

Lazarus was not contrived. It was not stupid. And it was not simply to 'force' Shepard to work with Cerberus.

You should know better than that. Lair of the Shadow Broker couldn't have existed without Shepard's death.

As for the Reapers being 'no fun,' it's clear that has little to do with you actually thinking a weaker enemy would be more dramatic (it wouldn't be) and more to do with you not liking the endings and not being able to think up any way to make them significantly better. So you assume the Reapers were doomed from the start. Which is nonsense.

Camaraderie is not good enough.

Modifié par David7204, 18 août 2013 - 10:00 .

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

Lazarus was not contrived. It was not stupid. And it was not simply to 'force' Shepard to work with Cerberus.

It was both contrived and stupid, try harder next time.

[David7204]

Wow. Brilliant argument right there. You're really going to change my mind by whining 'try harder next time.'

I should take such a thing as a compliment.

Modifié par David7204, 18 août 2013 - 10:19 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

The lazarus was all those things, because nothing significant or meaningful came about it. It didn't lead to any questioning loyalties from past friends except for 1, who didn't even stick around for most of the two games anyway. It certainly didn't lead to shepard having any sort of extensional thoughts or questions about his ability or identity. And it was never brought up to be a philosophical or moral conundrum or question. For something as big and as revolutionary as the lazarus project is, it's shoved into the corner and disposed of as if it were simply a minor plot device with no more purpose. It basically had the exact same effect being in a coma would have had for the narrative impact it did, and is treated as just a shinier, more sci-fi means of accomplishing this plot device, instead of as the earth shattering revelation it should have been.

If I were the writers, I wouldn't have had shepard find out about project lazarus until near the end of mass effect 2, than have mass effect 3 focus a lot on shepard questioning everything after finding out what really happened to him, and dealing with very deep feelings of self-doubt and the loyalty of some of his less personal comrades with the revelation.

Not just dropped it like it was nothing.

But there's a difference as well, going to your other point, between being hard, and being presented as impossible. The reapers are one such enemy who is presented as impossible to beat, and that's the problem. They are too powerful, they are too good, they're exsistence, ability to plot and plan ahead, and the speed by which they can accomplish their plans, all scream mary sue. I personally do not like the OP's proposition in the topic post, and feel that if they really wanted to improve mass effect, they would remove the reapers from the stroy all together and have a much less ancient evil, much more brewing trouble on the horizon, type enemy. Perhaps an orginization or collaboration of previously established bads through the galaxies history, coming together to overthrow the council and install themselves into power. Saren could have been working for them the whole time, and they could possess a less mary sue like version of indoctrination. You could even have them be led by an AI similar to the reapers or sovereign, and it would have alleviated a lot of the bad writing that commenced from the previous games.

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

Wow. Brilliant argument right there. You're really going to change my mind by whining 'try harder next time.'

I should take such a thing as a compliment.

Not like your mind is worth is changing anyway, that wasn't my reason, just to put some emphaize on the absurdity of your position. 

[NeonFlux117]

Nope. the 'reaper' plot is actually very good. The problem is that in ME3 it just never materialized enough or it came about way, way to quick.. ME1 and ME2 should have been as they are, then ME3 should have focused around the trial of shepard, shepards acquittal, conviction-and later sheps escape. And then it should have been about Shepard either clearing his name for the alliance or choosing to join cerberus. Also the final acts and events of ME3 should have been shepard getting alliances for the fourthcoming reaper invasion.- i.e. tuchanka arc, geth and quarian and so on.

The 4th game should have been the reaper war. Solely focusing on the Reapers and even getting to go to darkspace-which probably isn't 'dark',lol. But ME4 should have just been geared around The Reapers.

The problem was cramming all these things in one game, which BioWare did, in ME3.

ME3 had no 'narrative cohesion' it had no voice or identity. It was about Shepard, it was about the reapers, it was about cerberus, it was about geth, and quarian and tuchanka, and the leviathan and about Javik, it was about Multiplayer. It was proficient at all these. But a master of none. It had no identitiy. Unlike ME1 and ME2, that have a real unique feel and identity. ME3 tried to be everything to every gamer; and that's just not going to work. And despite all this, ME3 is still a great game- albeit not any where near ME2 and not close to ME1's greatness, but still a great game. But it should have been more focused. It was dis-jointed.

Again if BioWare chooses to do another project like Mass Effect; then they should probably write the beginning and the ending of the narrative at once. And then have the middle parts- the meat of the plot, all converge and not deviate from that. Not do what they did with Mass Effect- rewrites and rewrites and not knowing how it ends till they started working on ME3.

Both Hudson and Walters have said that they've "learned valuable lessons" form ME3. And I hope one of the lesson is 'narrative cohesion' and how to write branching story lines.

We'll see.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 18 août 2013 - 10:28 .

[David7204]

That's just not true at all. Plenty of meaningful content came from Lazarus in the collapse and reunion of the old squad. When people talk about Lazarus being dropped, it seem to me they're not talking about themes in general, only the one theme they supposedly expected. Which is Shepard whining to himself or herself whether she's 'real' or not.

Not only would that be character derailment, it would very likely be clumsy and boring. Why? Because it's overwhelmingly clear to the audience that Shepard is exactly the way s/he was. So all this talk when the answer is front of everyone's face is not going to be anywhere near as clever as people seem to think.

[Cainhurst Crow]

You know, you make a good point neonflux117, maybe it was just the pacing that ****ed everything up, and not the reapers mary sueness itself, which could have been a byproduct of that cramming.

[David7204]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

But there's a difference as well, going to your other point, between being hard, and being presented as impossible. The reapers are one such enemy who is presented as impossible to beat, and that's the problem. They are too powerful, they are too good, they're exsistence, ability to plot and plan ahead, and the speed by which they can accomplish their plans, all scream mary sue.

We're at a very, very ridiculous point if the mere existence of an enemy who doesn't have a completely stupid and pointless weakness is a 'Mary Sue.'

I don't find the Reapers impossible to beat without significant changes to the narrative for one minute.

Modifié par David7204, 18 août 2013 - 10:32 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

That's just not true at all. Plenty of meaningful content came from Lazarus in the collapse and reunion of the old squad. When people talk about Lazarus being dropped, it seem to me they're not talking about themes in general, only the one theme they supposedly expected. Which is Shepard whining to himself or herself whether she's 'real' or not.

Not only would that be character derailment, it would very likely be clumsy and boring. Why? Because it's overwhelmingly clear to the audience that Shepard is exactly the way s/he was. So all this talk when the answer is front of everyone's face is not going to be anywhere near as clever as people seem to think.

Tell me what meaningful content came from the lazarus project that couldn't have come from shepard just being in a coma for 2 years, and his body having been protected from collecter procurement by cerberus and the alliance declaring him dead?

I really want to hear this, david. Tell me what oh so great impact shepard being spaced and crashed into a planet and brought back with this project had, that a simple coma couldn't have just as easily accomplished?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 août 2013 - 08:47 .