1132 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Let me ask again, because I continue to receive annoyingly conflicted answers.

Are the charm and intimidate options 'easy win buttons' which require no effort and thought, or are they not?

[AresKeith]

klarabella wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Do you believe the charm and intimidate options in Mass Effect are an 'easy win button'? That they render the choice meaningless because you can 'solve the conflict with a button press'?

They are, being able to solve the conflict shouldn't be determined by the Red or Blue dialogue choices.

Exactly.

Getting what you want by either spouting badass-sounding crap or holier-than-thou-sounding crap isn't challenging.

The Council should not respond well to recklessness and the equivalent of teenage rebellion.
The krogan shouldn't be swayed by carefully chosen words of comfort and pity.

Too bad everyone does what you want anyway. Sometimes peoples get killed but no one really cares and everyone keeps fawning about how awesome you are.

That's why I stated DX:HR handled it extremely better

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

Let me ask again, because I continue to receive annoyingly conflicted answers.

Are the charm and intimidate options 'easy win buttons' which require no effort and thought, or are they not?

.
How many 'yeses' do you need

[Hazegurl]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
If you don't care about gameplay at all and simply are in it for the story, than that's fine, but if that's the case then just admit it.

There is no shame in admitting that you're really only in it for the story. I know plenty of people like that. I however, am not one of them. I play games because I like the challenge and I like to be in the state of flow.

I am one of those people and I gladly admit it. I love the stories in games and is really more interested in getting to the next part. so I set my levels on easy and have a blast. However, mindless game play isn't fun either, I still want to use my brains to make the right choices and get the job done.

I like it both ways. 

I want a game that is highly challenging and keeps you interested in the game. I would like there to be more rewards, like Halo for example, for playing on higher difficulties.

I agree, I think ppl who play on higher difficulites should be rewarded cause it is tough. Although I wouldn't mind more games offering other challenges and rewards in game then just difficulty settings. That way people who play on lower settings can still face challenges and choices and be rewarded. Although I wouldn't know what those other challenges could be besides story based choices or puzzles. lol!

[David7204]

Really? Yes? Yes, they are 'easy win buttons'?

But I earned them! I earned them by choosing the proper dialogue options previously. I earned them by putting points in the charm and intimidate skills. I earned them by having my reputation high enough. They were earned! By me! The player! I earned them. How can they possibly be 'easy win buttons' when I earned them?

I earned them through my determination and skill. Right?

Right?

Modifié par David7204, 18 août 2013 - 10:39 .

[The Heretic of Time]

jtav wrote...

About gameplay, I think catering to a wide variety of ability levels is good. I do not have good twitch skills. All the practice in the world won't give me good twitch skills because it stems from a motor impairment. I do want to be challenged, but I'm also profoundly grateful I can play ME3 without getting a handcramp.

Which is why video-games often have multiple difficulty settings, so different peopple with different set of skills can all equally enjoy playing video-games.

You enjoy the "easy" setting. I enjoy the "insanity" setting. But we both enjoy the game equally much. We're both in the flow state.

That's why I too support scalable difficulty for video-games. Preferably difficulty settings that can be adjusted manually. I'm not too fond of the games that automatically scale up or scale down the difficulty based on your succes. I feel like those games are often too easy and/or poorly balanced. Enemies that scale with the player's skills are often frustrating.

When I encounter an enemy, I want the enemy to kick my ass at first, until I've learned how to defeat the enemy and improved my skills, then I want to kick the enemies ass, and then I can feel good about myself and continue to the next enemy. That's how games should be in my opinion, and that brings us back to the basic principles of game design: the flow channel.

[Luxorek]

David7204 wrote...
Are the charm and intimidate options 'easy win buttons' which require no effort and thought, or are they not?

Isn't that pretty obvious ? They are, hell - Cameron Lee on DA:I team pretty much equated ME persuasion system to that.

We've had three games to learn that blue/red dialogue option is a way to go - you are pretty much always guaranteed a satisfying resolution. Whenever there is such option THERE is absolutely no point in chosing anything else from the dialogue wheel - unless, of course, you want to screw yourself.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Really? Yes? Yes, they are 'easy win buttons'?

But I earned them! I earned them by choosing the proper dialogue options previously. I earned them by putting points in the charm and intimidate skills. I earned them by having my reputation high enough. They were earned! By me! The player! I earned them. How can they possibly be 'easy win buttons' when I earned them?

Because they ARE easy win buttons that automatically resolves the current conflict you in the best way possible without requiring any skills or intelligence?

That's why the red and blue dialogue options in Mass Effect suck in my opinion. They trivialize the conflict that could have been interesting or thought-provoking if the auto-win buttons weren't there.

It doesn't matter that you have to earn the auto-win buttons, they're still auto-win buttons.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 août 2013 - 10:41 .

[David7204]

Luxorek wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Are the charm and intimidate options 'easy win buttons' which require no effort and thought, or are they not?

Isn't that pretty obvious ? They are, hell - Cameron Lee on DA:I team pretty much equated ME persuasion system to that.

We've had three games to learn that blue/red dialogue option is a way to go - you are pretty much always guaranteed a satisfying resolution. Whenever there is such option THERE is absolutely no point in chosing anything else from the dialogue wheel - unless, of course, you want to screw yourself.

I'll just repost. Perhaps you should check the last few pages so you follow what's going on.

Really? Yes? Yes, they are 'easy win buttons'?

But I earned them! I earned them by choosing the proper dialogue options previously.I earned them by putting points in the charm and intimidate skills. I earned them by having my reputation high enough. They were earned! By me! The player! I earned them. How can they possibly be 'easy win buttons' when I earned them?

I earned them through my determination and skill. Right?

Right?

Modifié par David7204, 18 août 2013 - 10:42 .

[jtav]

I agree that DX: HR handled persuasion much better. Listening and choosing words carefully was required. Even CASIE only made your job easier.

The problem with C/I is two-fold: 1. Results are sometimes not credible. 2. You shouldn't blindly go for any option.

[David7204]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Because they ARE easy win buttons that automatically resolves the current conflict you in the best way possible without requiring any skills or intelligence?

It doesn't matter that you have to earn the auto-win buttons, they're still auto-win buttons.

Really? So it makes no utterly difference what was done beforehand, it's automatically an 'easy win button' if it resolves the conflict. No matter what.

So skills obviously should be completely worthless in games. Like in Fallout. Because it shouldn't matter that you 'earned' those skills previously by leveling them. They're an auto win button.

Plot points as well. It should make no difference if you've done something different in the story if it's an 'auto win button' right now. Makes no difference if you've earned, say, a character's respect by helping him out earlier. Auto win button.

Is that about right?

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I earned them through my determination and skill. Right?

Right?

No, you earned the auto-win buttons by either sinking enough points in Charm/Intimidate in ME1 or sticking to your guns in ME2. In ME3, the auto-win buttons were pretty much handed out for free.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Is that about right?

No.

Nothing in Fallout is an auto-win button.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 août 2013 - 10:48 .

[David7204]

StreetMagic wrote...

The only time I felt like I "earned" something with that dialogue system was the Elias Kelham interrogation. "I'm a Spectre." That was satisfying, but short lived.

Oh, so you agree with me on the previous pages, then? You agree with me all the times I said you don't earn a good story in video games. You disagree with all of the people clamoring that  "I earned the story playing it." Right?

[Luxorek]

Dude, if that system makes you feel like you "earned" something then that's your opinion at best. Hell, all I'm writing is my opinion as well, but there is no denying that ME dialogue system is trivial. All "tough" dialogues turned into "click glowing red/blue" to get a resolution. Then what's the point in all the other options in the dialogue wheel ? Pointless.

The absolute perfection when it comes to dialogues in a video game is Deus Ex: Human Revolution. At this point there is no RPG that have done dialogues better. I have a slimmer of hope that Bioware goes away from this pointless paragon/renegade meter that affects your persuasion capabilities.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The only time I felt like I "earned" something with that dialogue system was the Elias Kelham interrogation. "I'm a Spectre." That was satisfying, but short lived.

Oh, so you agree with me on the previous pages, then? You agree with me all the times I said you don't earn a good story in video games. You disagree with all of the people clamoring that  "I earned the story playing it." Right?

No David. You invalidated your argument by changing it. Changing your argument is your signature.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I said you don't earn a good story in video games. 

Change your post to "you don't earn a good story in MASS EFFECT" and you might be on to something. But right now, you're just wrong.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 août 2013 - 10:50 .

[David7204]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Is that about right?

No.

Really? Could you explain the difference to me?

Could you explain to me why earning skills in persuation and then using it to resolve a conflict is an 'auto win button,' but earning other skills and using them to resolve a conflict isn't?

Could you explain to me why earning skills in persuation and then using it to resolve a conflict is an 'auto win button, but 'earning' a characters respect and then using it resolve a conflict isn't?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Luxorek wrote...

Dude, if that system makes you feel like you "earned" something then that's your opinion at best. Hell, all I'm writing is my opinion as well, but there is no denying that ME dialogue system is trivial. All "tough" dialogues turned into "click glowing red/blue" to get a resolution. Then what's the point in all the other options in the dialogue wheel ? Pointless.

The absolute perfection when it comes to dialogues in a video game is Deus Ex: Human Revolution. At this point there is no RPG that have done dialogues better. I have a slimmer of hope that Bioware goes away from this pointless paragon/renegade meter that affects your persuasion capabilities.

Ah, see, David has a problem with viewing his opinion as objective fact.

If he believes it, then it must be true.

Like a stick that he swings and hits people with.

[Nightwriter]

David7204 wrote...

The important point this all leads to is that the attributes and qualities of the protagonist are not earned by the player.

Games are illusions, silly. How enjoyable they are often rests upon the quality of that illusion.

I don't have self-determination in games, but I am given the illusion of self-determination, and this makes roleplaying and choice making both possible and enjoyable.

I don't through my own skill enhance my character's prowess, but through XP accumulation I can experience the illusion of "earning" increasing levels of power.

And I don't through my own personal charisma earn an NPC's respect, but when done right, as with for instance the Arishok, I am able to elect a series of actions that win that respect in a way that makes the outcome feel rewarding.

It seems like you're saying that because these effects are illusory, they cannot create palpable feelings of effort and reward in the player, and we should therefore not seek out that sense of effort/reward in our games. You are wrong. We play games for the effects these illusions have on us. Those effects are important. Those illusions are important.

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...
Could you explain to me why earning skills in persuation and then using it to resolve a conflict is an 'auto win button,' but earning other skills and using them to resolve a conflict isn't?

Because what you had to do to earn them was trivial or at least disconnected.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 août 2013 - 10:54 .

[David7204]

You don't need an illusion to appreciate a story and a game. In fact, quite the opposite. You'll appreciate them more without them.

Shepard is not a hero because you pressed the right buttons. Because you 'earned' anything. S/he's a hero because s/he's a hero. Because that's who s/he is.

The same with any character in any fiction.