164 réponses à ce sujet

[FaWa]

AresKeith wrote...

FaWa wrote...

I mean, when it comes down to it, before DA2, straight romances were always with the main companions, while the bi companions were always just things on the side, overall irrelevant to the plot. (Not to mention borderline stereotypes with Zev)

What stereotype with Zev?

Extremely horny all the time bisexual who will **** anything that moves, very promiscous, etc.

Not bi but just pointing out what I see. 

[Battlebloodmage]

I'm starting to think people learn about gay people through Glee.

[mikeymoonshine]

There has actually been allot of debate in the "gay community" about how camp people create negative stereotypes about gay people. Now I personally think the people who say that are ****s and that if someone is kinda camp then yay for them! it's the people believing the stereotypes that are the problem not the people who happen to fit into them.

However that's off topic my point is it's time to stop assuming that being gay is something that somehow defines your life coz it ain't. It's just sexual preference and that's all it is.

[Frozenkex]

Ailith430 wrote...

  I'm sorry if this goes too off topic, but I really feel this point needs to be made.

You see these two guys?

www.marieclaire.com/cm/marieclaire/images/H2/mcx-costellotagliapietra-0811-blog.jpg

That's Jeffrey Costello and Robert Tagliapietra. They are both very sucessful fashion designers, they are both bearded and middle aged, masculine, and they are both extremely gay. But just incase your worldview about gay men and gender roles in relationships hasn't completely imploded yet, they are in fact a couple as well.

So yes, it's entirely possible for bearded, non stereotypical men to be gay and in a relationship with each other. These two are not a rare occurance. Not all gay men are inherently feminine in nature, just as not all lesbians are not all masculine in nature. If this blows your mind then good, I hope it does.

I don't see any problem with the masculine, bearded bad ass Warden dude being attracted to men, and if you do for some reason then you CANNOT claim it's because it's "unrealistic."

I understand in life its all possible, and im aware of that. But it gets less and less likely, that one with specific attributes is bi or gay. It is true that sometimes seeing/communicating to a person its hard to tell what sexuality one has , but its also true that often it is possible to tell and predict that one is bi/gay, the opposite is true - its possible to predict one is totally straight, the accuracy varies. Now the writing and fantasy is slightly different, if a writer wants to write a bi/gay character he doesnt go "hmm i imagine stern, tough, burly, bearded, manly man", still its possible but unlikely. And think of grey wardens as people they are rare too, and grey wardens in general have attributes that put them above others.

Anyway its an assumption, and its very unlikely, it doesnt matter how many similar men you find in real life, its still unlikely. Especially in a fantasy. An example is that when GRRM wrote Renly Baratheon he didnt give him attributes that Stannis and Robert had, for a reason. For those reasons I don't think grey warden is likely to be bi, assuming that he indeed is tough and stern. Is that reasonable?

Modifié par Frozenkex, 19 août 2013 - 03:37 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Frozenkex wrote...


I understand in life its all possible, and im aware of that. But it gets less and less likely, that one with specific attributes is bi or gay. It is true that sometimes seeing/communicating to a person its hard to tell what sexuality one has , but its also true that often it is possible to tell and predict that one is bi/gay, the opposite is true - its possible to predict one is totally straight, the accuracy varies. Now the writing and fantasy is slightly different, if a writer wants to write a bi/gay character he doesnt go "hmm i imagine stern, tough, burly, bearded, manly man", still its possible but unlikely. And think of grey wardens as people they are rare too, and grey wardens in general have attributes that put them above others.

Anyway its an assumption, and its very unlikely, it doesnt matter how many similar men you find in real life, its still unlikely. Especially in a fantasy. An example is that when GRRM wrote Renly Baratheon he didnt give him attributes that Stannis and Robert had, for a reason. For those reasons I don't think grey warden is likely to be bi, assuming that he indeed is tough and stern. Is that reasonable?

No, it's not. There is nothing that says a gay or bisexual guy can't be tough and stern.  Gays are just as varied as straights.  

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 19 août 2013 - 03:41 .

[Plaintiff]

LOL. George RR Martin is prejudiced, so all writers of Fantasy should be.

[FaWa]

Frozenkex wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...

  I'm sorry if this goes too off topic, but I really feel this point needs to be made.

You see these two guys?

www.marieclaire.com/cm/marieclaire/images/H2/mcx-costellotagliapietra-0811-blog.jpg

That's Jeffrey Costello and Robert Tagliapietra. They are both very sucessful fashion designers, they are both bearded and middle aged, masculine, and they are both extremely gay. But just incase your worldview about gay men and gender roles in relationships hasn't completely imploded yet, they are in fact a couple as well.

So yes, it's entirely possible for bearded, non stereotypical men to be gay and in a relationship with each other. These two are not a rare occurance. Not all gay men are inherently feminine in nature, just as not all lesbians are not all masculine in nature. If this blows your mind then good, I hope it does.

I don't see any problem with the masculine, bearded bad ass Warden dude being attracted to men, and if you do for some reason then you CANNOT claim it's because it's "unrealistic."

I understand in life its all possible, and im aware of that. But it gets less and less likely, that one with specific attributes is bi or gay. It is true that sometimes seeing/communicating to a person its hard to tell what sexuality one has , but its also true that often it is possible to tell and predict that one is bi/gay, the opposite is true - its possible to predict one is totally straight, the accuracy varies. Now the writing and fantasy is slightly different, if a writer wants to write a bi/gay character he doesnt go "hmm i imagine stern, tough, burly, bearded, manly man", still its possible but unlikely. And think of grey wardens as people they are rare too, and grey wardens in general have attributes that put them above others.

Anyway its an assumption, and its very unlikely, it doesnt matter how many similar men you find in real life, its still unlikely. Especially in a fantasy. An example is that when GRRM wrote Renly Baratheon he didnt give him attributes that Stannis and Robert had, for a reason. For those reasons I don't think grey warden is likely to be bi, assuming that he indeed is tough and stern. Is that reasonable?

lol@ you 

We shouldn't have rich black characters because when I think rich guy, its unlikely I think black guy.
We shouldn't have tough female characters like aveline because when I think tank warrior, I think male.

I mean both of those things are unlikely and defy my small-minded view of the world so they just shouldn't happen, right?

What you are doing is trying to justify stereotypes and its not working because you keep lulzily trying to claim there aren't any big bearded, tough gay men, WHEN THEY ARE ONE OF THE BIGGEST CONTINGENTS OF GAY MEN, AS SEEN HERE:

http://en.wikipedia....ar_(gay_culture)

Modifié par FaWa, 19 août 2013 - 03:45 .

[FaWa]

And can you please explain what

"Anyway its an assumption, and its very unlikely, it doesnt matter how many similar men you find in real life, its still unlikely. Especially in a fantasy"

is supposed to mean?

[Frozenkex]

Seems like this is an argument i can't win, and even if I did i would seem like an **** so I'll drop it .

Fine make Varric bi, whatever.

[mikeymoonshine]

Frozenkex wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...

  I'm sorry if this goes too off topic, but I really feel this point needs to be made.

You see these two guys?

www.marieclaire.com/cm/marieclaire/images/H2/mcx-costellotagliapietra-0811-blog.jpg

That's Jeffrey Costello and Robert Tagliapietra. They are both very sucessful fashion designers, they are both bearded and middle aged, masculine, and they are both extremely gay. But just incase your worldview about gay men and gender roles in relationships hasn't completely imploded yet, they are in fact a couple as well.

So yes, it's entirely possible for bearded, non stereotypical men to be gay and in a relationship with each other. These two are not a rare occurance. Not all gay men are inherently feminine in nature, just as not all lesbians are not all masculine in nature. If this blows your mind then good, I hope it does.

I don't see any problem with the masculine, bearded bad ass Warden dude being attracted to men, and if you do for some reason then you CANNOT claim it's because it's "unrealistic."

I understand in life its all possible, and im aware of that. But it gets less and less likely, that one with specific attributes is bi or gay. It is true that sometimes seeing/communicating to a person its hard to tell what sexuality one has , but its also true that often it is possible to tell and predict that one is bi/gay, the opposite is true - its possible to predict one is totally straight, the accuracy varies. Now the writing and fantasy is slightly different, if a writer wants to write a bi/gay character he doesnt go "hmm i imagine stern, tough, burly, bearded, manly man", still its possible but unlikely. And think of grey wardens as people they are rare too, and grey wardens in general have attributes that put them above others.

Anyway its an assumption, and its very unlikely, it doesnt matter how many similar men you find in real life, its still unlikely. Especially in a fantasy. An example is that when GRRM wrote Renly Baratheon he didnt give him attributes that Stannis and Robert had, for a reason. For those reasons I don't think grey warden is likely to be bi, assuming that he indeed is tough and stern. Is that reasonable?

Writers have a habit of creating steriotypical characters (not just gay ones) because they are going to appeal to wider audiences and they are easier to understand. Bioware Is known for at least trying to not do so much of that though. 

As for all that other crap you said well it was crap and most ppl here can see that. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Not just Varric.
All of them.

[wwwwowwww]

I think some campfire and inn banter and squabling would be pretty fun myself.

[mikeymoonshine]

it's not bi anyway. it's player sexual, this means in your game they can be straight if you romance them as a woman or just never romance them at all.

I would say varric for example seems pretty straight to me. not because of how *butch* he is but because he seems to flirt with women allot and bianca is named after hios ex lover who was female ect ect.

but if they wanna make him an LI and player sexual who cares? So something a bit unusal is happening in some other peoples games.

[rapscallioness]

It's just easier to have everyone player sexual. Resource wise for the devs. Gaider said IF they had all the resources and time...yeah. They could do far more detailed and varied romances.

But we're talking abt realism, so lets get real...that's not happening. They do not have the resources to do that. Especially for something that is a minor, optional "sidequest".

And content is content. Homosexual ppl do not get a discount on lost content--optional or not. They pay the same price everybody else does. So, they should have access to the same content as everybody else does.

Oh, (i just learned abt these guys recently) "Sacred Band of Thebes" . I'd classify this elite fighting force as pretty tough.

That is all.

[Tonishi]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

it's not bi anyway. it's player sexual, this means in your game they can be straight if you romance them as a woman or just never romance them at all.

I would say varric for example seems pretty straight to me. not because of how *butch* he is but because he seems to flirt with women allot and bianca is named after hios ex lover who was female ect ect.

but if they wanna make him an LI and player sexual who cares? So something a bit unusal is happening in some other peoples games.

Personally I'd love to see some hilarious scenes where Varric (for example) would get hit by the male PC and he would get all akward and try not to insult him. Perhaps in the long run the PC could be succesful?

This thread did enlight me about the question "Why almost everyone was bi-sexual in DA2?" I didn't know about Player Sexuality until I stumbled upon this thread. It does make sense, though not with Anders. That was a bit messed up, since his backstory changed. Especially if you played Awakening before DA2. If I recall right, Anders was the ladiesman there.

I'd like to have the big (or small if we talk about a dwarf ) bulky bearded guy who first hits on male PC but would be a romance option for females too. The ladies just needs to work more to get his attention. That would be more interesting and freshresing. Thought the problem could be, as someone in this thread already said, that some person might get offended and claim he was "pixel raped" as he stated himself. Sheesh, some people.

[mikeymoonshine]

Tonishi wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

it's not bi anyway. it's player sexual, this means in your game they can be straight if you romance them as a woman or just never romance them at all.

I would say varric for example seems pretty straight to me. not because of how *butch* he is but because he seems to flirt with women allot and bianca is named after hios ex lover who was female ect ect.

but if they wanna make him an LI and player sexual who cares? So something a bit unusal is happening in some other peoples games.

Personally I'd love to see some hilarious scenes where Varric (for example) would get hit by the male PC and he would get all akward and try not to insult him. Perhaps in the long run the PC could be succesful?

This thread did enlight me about the question "Why almost everyone was bi-sexual in DA2?" I didn't know about Player Sexuality until I stumbled upon this thread. It does make sense, though not with Anders. That was a bit messed up, since his backstory changed. Especially if you played Awakening before DA2. If I recall right, Anders was the ladiesman there.

I'd like to have the big (or small if we talk about a dwarf ) bulky bearded guy who first hits on male PC but would be a romance option for females too. The ladies just needs to work more to get his attention. That would be more interesting and freshresing. Thought the problem could be, as someone in this thread already said, that some person might get offended and claim he was "pixel raped" as he stated himself. Sheesh, some people.

Isabella and Anders in da2 are actually bisexual but Merril and Fenris are unspecified. 
Anders got a personality transplant for da2 anyway. 
Merril always seemed straight to me and Fenris always seemed like some gay guy who is totally over compensating but other people have said to me they felt the opposite so I guess that is the point player sexual  

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

LOL. George RR Martin is prejudiced, so all writers of Fantasy should be.

[Fredward]

Frozenkex wrote...
I understand in life its all possible, and im aware of that. But it gets less and less likely, that one with specific attributes is bi or gay. It is true that sometimes seeing/communicating to a person its hard to tell what sexuality one has , but its also true that often it is possible to tell and predict that one is bi/gay, the opposite is true - its possible to predict one is totally straight, the accuracy varies. Now the writing and fantasy is slightly different, if a writer wants to write a bi/gay character he doesnt go "hmm i imagine stern, tough, burly, bearded, manly man", still its possible but unlikely. And think of grey wardens as people they are rare too, and grey wardens in general have attributes that put them above others.

Anyway its an assumption, and its very unlikely, it doesnt matter how many similar men you find in real life, its still unlikely. Especially in a fantasy. An example is that when GRRM wrote Renly Baratheon he didnt give him attributes that Stannis and Robert had, for a reason. For those reasons I don't think grey warden is likely to be bi, assuming that he indeed is tough and stern. Is that reasonable?

-blink-

Dude. WTF.



Anyway. Some people just aren't compatable. They just don't mesh, ever. I liked that Fenris and Anders didn't and I liked that Morrigan and Alistair never got along.

[MakutaDax]

rapscallioness wrote...

It's just easier to have everyone player sexual. Resource wise for the devs. Gaider said IF they had all the resources and time...yeah. They could do far more detailed and varied romances.

But we're talking abt realism, so lets get real...that's not happening. They do not have the resources to do that. Especially for something that is a minor, optional "sidequest".

And content is content. Homosexual ppl do not get a discount on lost content--optional or not. They pay the same price everybody else does. So, they should have access to the same content as everybody else does.

Oh, (i just learned abt these guys recently) "Sacred Band of Thebes" . I'd classify this elite fighting force as pretty tough.

That is all.

Can I just thank you for referencing the Sacred Band? You're awesome. And also for pointing out the fact that homos pay the same price as heteros, so we kinda do deserve some kind of equal choice. I mean, fair's fair, especially when it doesn't really have to have an impact on anyone else's playthrough, such as with player-sexual romances. Hence why I totally support that element of Bioware games. If my m!Warden could have gotten his claws into Alistair in Origins... lol

[Forsaken_Chivalry]

One, all you people trying to use Stannis and Robert as legitimate reasons for "why bearded men can't be gay" are laughable. Stannis very well could have been gay for Davos at one point in their friendship (after all I'm pretty sure it was implied that Davos had a thing for Stannis once). Robert could have had feelings for Rhaegar, or any other male that happened to be within radius. Hell maybe this whole damn time he was in love with Ned Stark cause he had a thing for him after Lyanna died. Who knows, who cares. It's not even the same fandom. Plus George RR Martin is the last person you want to legitimize your argument with. He's a troll. He enjoys mind****ing his fans. Half the time he's probably talking out his ass. The truth is you people (hello yes you, miseducated homophobes) don't want to interrupt your little fantasy that only straight people are "manly" (which in this case you're speaking of the social norm of manly, because people have varying opinions on what manly actually is) so you don't feel threatened by the fact a gay man/ lesbian woman could possibly well be manlier/more feminine than you. *gasp* I went there, get over it. Don't be so closeminded it's unbecoming. 

As for the ACTUAL conversation, I also politely disagree on another note. Fenris and Anders didn't continue to hate each other all the way through the game. In the beginning they did indeed despise each other. In the third act, before Anders blew up the chantry, Fenris actually displayed more understanding toward him. In the beginning Fenris initiated hateful comments toward Anders. In the third act he simply just talked back to Anders when Anders started all the arguments. And even then he's not as venomous as he was in the beginning (i.e. you belong in Tevinter in the second act, and the worst insult in the third act hinting that Anders is weak). Come on now, even their relationship got considerably less hateful. In my opinion anyway. 

That being said, there are some things that need to be fixed on the conversation wheel aspect of things but the relationships never really bothered me. I loved my character's romance options (even if I ended up despising my Hawke but that's another story) and I loved their friendships/relationships with each other. What I do wish is that you can approach someone and have a conversation with them rather than just getting a quest to or having a trigger place for a dialogue. Sometimes my character just wants to have a conversation, dudes. It was one of the best things about DA:O and I hope they bring that back. 

Wow okay I logged in for the first time in years just to write a mini-novella about my opinions. *returns to lurking* 

Modifié par Forsaken_Chivalry, 19 août 2013 - 07:49 .

[K_Tabris]

I have three gay guy friends rl, two of which have beards. How did this even come up?

I hope Varric is a gay dwarf only romance since these are the things the fans are moaning about these days.

YIKES.

Modifié par KallianaTabris, 19 août 2013 - 07:56 .

[Forsaken_Chivalry]

KallianaTabris wrote...

I have three gay guy friends rl, two of which have beards. How did this even come up?

I hope Varric is a gay dwarf only romance since these are the things the fans are moaning about these days.

YIKES.

Same about the gay friends. One of the friends I'm speaking of happens to be built like a beast too. He is the most unstereotypical gay guy I know which is why the previous comments earlier in the thread basically stating "gay men aren't/can't be manly" irritated me to be quite honest. 

Also that comment about Varric, YES. 

Modifié par Forsaken_Chivalry, 19 août 2013 - 08:05 .

[General Malor]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Where's the fun in having a bunch of people who all agree with each other, get along wonderfully and have broadly the same aims and objectives? If you have an interesting and diverse group you'll get disagreement, conflict, argument. Preferably reflecting the conflicts going on in the game world. Maybe some will be resolved, maybe some will degenerate into flat out hatred. It's fun to see it play out and I'd like more of it.

The romance argument makes not a whit of sense to me. It's an optional sidequest. Do not want? Do not press accept when offered sidequest. Do not get sidequest. Sorted.

My main point with the romances was a bit of hyperbole. Clearly not every character actively tries to get into your pants, which is sad. Why does the player character have to do all the work? I merely meant to bring up the issue, issue meaning topic, of how in games where characters are romanaceable or "player sexual" it interferes with other forms of relationships. My one Shepard actually started something with Kaiden before I called it off. I guess I missed the signs, but my Shepard was happily with Tali then Kaiden confesses to my Shepard that he feels the same way. I was just trying to be nice to a friend, but that quickly turned into me trying to have a bit of fun with Kaiden.

Maybe that was just me. I might be really good at attracting men and not know it. Who knows?

I just want characters, who regardless of their orientation, I can create a believeable relationship with that does not involve potential sex. Like Liara in the first game, getting to know someone and spending time with them doesn't mean you're courting them. Again, that might have just been my experience of the dynamic.

Then again if it does mean you're trying to seduce them then I'm trying to have sex with a lot of my friends.

Also the issue regarding companion interaction, I wasn't saying that they should all get along perfectly, I'm saying I'd like to see more interesting dynamics form between them. People have pointed out how Fenris and Isabella hook up if you don't pursue either and that is a good point, but it's the only one in regards to Dragon Age. I'm not saying that it is completely devoid of such storylines and events, my suggestion is that it happens more. That's all.

And in regards to not everyone getting along, I'm aware that conflict is interesting to people and it keeps tension and interest up. That doesn't mean that you're at someone's throat or completely rude to them. This may just be my own life but if I don't like someone, like significantly really don't like them, I'm not around them. Whereas I have other acquaintances who I don't get completely along with and who I'm antagonistic towards, but that doesn't mean I'm hostile.

So if two characters are going to hate each other I want to see that devolope and grow or dimish with time. But I want to see something. Morrigan and Alistair being snide and short with each other the whole game, was in the story's time a year, didn't change or evolve much. How do you know someone a whole year, fight beside them, camp with them, save the world with them and nothing significant happens?

I think that the Bioware writers are on the right track towards creating a more immersive experience. I didn't say once that there was a lack of involved stories in regards to companion characters, I merely suggested that we see that trend grow with this title.

I just want characters to be more intricate than they already are, and given that things should evolve and grow I don't see that as something unreasonable. I want characters who feel like people, characters who feel like charcters from a book. Because this is all story telling so it should not be too much to expect the same level of immersion here.

Sorry for being unclear, hope that this helps some for people who thought for some reason I was saying there was no such developement. Or who thought the hyperbole of "trying to get into my pants" was literal. Tone doesn't carry in text.

Modifié par General Malor, 19 août 2013 - 11:49 .

[General Malor]

LindsayLohan wrote...

My question is why do we have so much little influence on female characters? You would think that by now fantasy has branched away from literature that placed females in minor roles. We should have more female major roles as the female character archetypes tend to be more influential and interesting.

On topic the only S/S lesbian romance I got in the previous game was Merill. Merill Is a weak character and she does not represent the independent and strong woman Idea. I changed my romance option to Aveline and bioware didn't bother to implement her romance. I am now trapped with romancing a weak and naive elf who is everything I hate about the way females are portrayed in the media. Bioware should be able to implement a strong ROMANCABLE woman for their next title

I almost fully agree. I don't know if I'd say they are more interesting, because that's subjective. But I do enjoy them more often.

I wanted Aveline because she was so strong and herself and... she just had this imdomitable feel without being obnoxius about it that I just love. Instead I had Merill who I don't fully trust or Isabell who I really shouldn't trust. I got denied by Aveline, which made her more interesting, and never got to be with her. I would totally trade the Merill option for Aveline.

Bioware dropped the ball on that, in my opinion.