27 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

I've been browsing this forum and I must say that it surprises me that so many people consider lifting the curse in the quest 'Nature of the Beast' to be the morally just option. In my view this is akin to letting murderers go free without punishment. The werewolves launched a completely unprovoked attack on innocent elves who had nothing to do with their affliction (Zathrian was the only one guilty). They murdered elves in a cold, calculating assault in order to fulfill their own selfish desire to lift the curse.

So I believe it better to slay every one of those abominations rather than give them what they want and let them go. Thoughts?

[keeneaow]

I don't bother with moral issues in a game,
i do weigh moral heavily in real life tho.

[caradoc2000]

Murder cannot be used as a justification for another murder.

[sylvanaerie]

Did you not even speak to the Lady when you played? Or Danyla? If you did you would have known that the curse lasted centuries, that those currently afflicted with it were INNOCENT of the crimes Zathrian cursed their ancestors with. That they had to deal with the pain of their blood on fire constantly. That they managed to regain their senses thanks to the Lady is beside the point because it didn't end their pain, only allowed them to control it enough to be sentient. They were still greatly suffering for a crime they did not commit and Zathrian was propagating this agony for centuries.

The werewolves tried a peaceful solution for many years, every time the clan's aravels came to the Brecelian forest, but Zathrian ignored their pleas. It wasn't till this last time they actually took action to get his attention in a desperate attempt to get him to lift the curse to save his own people.

And STILL Zathrian ignored not just the werewolves but his OWN people! All for his revenge on people who were long dead and beyond caring.

I wouldn't call what the werewolves did murder, I'd call it a last desperate act of self defense.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 18 août 2013 - 01:11 .

[Blazomancer]

I don't know if remember it well, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the werewolves only infect them with lycanthropy! I don't seem to remember that they outright murdered any elf in the ambush. It's Zathrian's reluctance to lift the curse, that with each passing day, the victims gradually transformed and some met their demise!

[thats1evildude]

You're assuming that the werewolves in the company of the Lady are all that's what left of their pack. There may be others elsewhere in the forest and in the ruins. Unless the curse is ended, they will persist as werewolves and revert to their bestial nature, eventually attacking and kill/infect other innocent people who had nothing to do with the crime committed against Zathrian.

Still, I would agree that killing the werewolves is a preferable option to killing the Dalish elves. As you said, the werewolves are not exactly innocent.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 août 2013 - 05:13 .

[Wulfram]

Faerunner, I think thats1evildude was disagreeing with the OP.

[thats1evildude]

Indeed I was.

[Bad King]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Did you not even speak to the Lady when you played? Or Danyla? If you did you would have known that the curse lasted centuries, that those currently afflicted with it were INNOCENT of the crimes Zathrian cursed their ancestors with. That they had to deal with the pain of their blood on fire constantly. That they managed to regain their senses thanks to the Lady is beside the point because it didn't end their pain, only allowed them to control it enough to be sentient. They were still greatly suffering for a crime they did not commit and Zathrian was propagating this agony for centuries.

The werewolves tried a peaceful solution for many years, every time the clan's aravels came to the Brecelian forest, but Zathrian ignored their pleas. It wasn't till this last time they actually took action to get his attention in a desperate attempt to get him to lift the curse to save his own people.

And STILL Zathrian ignored not just the werewolves but his OWN people! All for his revenge on people who were long dead and beyond caring.

I wouldn't call what the werewolves did murder, I'd call it a last desperate act of self defense.

The first part of your reply has nothing to do with my original post: I am not defending Zathrian here or the fact that he maintained the curse for so long.

In regard to the latter part of your reply, I must disagree: the werewolf assault on the dalish elves was indeed murder- you don't defend yourself against innocent people that have caused you no harm. The werewolves' quarrel was with Zathrian and yet they happily sacrificed innocents in order to achieve their own ends. The ambush was indeed a means to force Zathrian to take action, but it was inevitable that many elves would die and yet the werewolves went along with it.

Blazomancer wrote...
I don't know if remember it well, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the werewolves only infect them with lycanthropy! I don't seem to remember that they outright murdered any elf in the ambush. It's Zathrian's reluctance to lift the curse, that with each passing day, the victims gradually transformed and some met their demise!

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Bad King, 19 août 2013 - 03:18 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bad King wrote...

I've been browsing this forum and I must say that it surprises me that so many people consider lifting the curse in the quest 'Nature of the Beast' to be the morally just option. In my view this is akin to letting murderers go free without punishment. The werewolves launched a completely unprovoked attack on innocent elves who had nothing to do with their affliction (Zathrian was the only one guilty). They murdered elves in a cold, calculating assault in order to fulfill their own selfish desire to lift the curse.

So I believe it better to slay every one of those abominations rather than give them what they want and let them go. Thoughts?

The nature of the werewolves' infliction is that they become increasingly violent and uncontrollable. The game makes it clear that the Forest Spirit is barely holding them in check by the time you get there, and if you do allow them to attack the elves the epilogue goes on to say they degenerate into an even more bestial state.

In short, it's a an increasingly debilitating mental sickness, inflicted on them by Zathrian.

But you're ok with him getting away, apparently, even if you don't excuse what he did. Why?

[Bad King]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Bad King wrote...

I've been browsing this forum and I must say that it surprises me that so many people consider lifting the curse in the quest 'Nature of the Beast' to be the morally just option. In my view this is akin to letting murderers go free without punishment. The werewolves launched a completely unprovoked attack on innocent elves who had nothing to do with their affliction (Zathrian was the only one guilty). They murdered elves in a cold, calculating assault in order to fulfill their own selfish desire to lift the curse.

So I believe it better to slay every one of those abominations rather than give them what they want and let them go. Thoughts?

The nature of the werewolves' infliction is that they become increasingly violent and uncontrollable. The game makes it clear that the Forest Spirit is barely holding them in check by the time you get there, and if you do allow them to attack the elves the epilogue goes on to say they degenerate into an even more bestial state.

In short, it's a an increasingly debilitating mental sickness, inflicted on them by Zathrian.

But you're ok with him getting away, apparently, even if you don't excuse what he did. Why?

No, I kill him as well.

[Lord Raijin]

Zathrian sacrificed himself in my game play to help cure the werewolves from their curse. I saw that right after Zathrian died the werewolves turn back into humans. I'm glad I made the decision to spare the werewolves. Now these people can start living their lives again.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bad King wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Bad King wrote...

I've been browsing this forum and I must say that it surprises me that so many people consider lifting the curse in the quest 'Nature of the Beast' to be the morally just option. In my view this is akin to letting murderers go free without punishment. The werewolves launched a completely unprovoked attack on innocent elves who had nothing to do with their affliction (Zathrian was the only one guilty). They murdered elves in a cold, calculating assault in order to fulfill their own selfish desire to lift the curse.

So I believe it better to slay every one of those abominations rather than give them what they want and let them go. Thoughts?

The nature of the werewolves' infliction is that they become increasingly violent and uncontrollable. The game makes it clear that the Forest Spirit is barely holding them in check by the time you get there, and if you do allow them to attack the elves the epilogue goes on to say they degenerate into an even more bestial state.

In short, it's a an increasingly debilitating mental sickness, inflicted on them by Zathrian.

But you're ok with him getting away, apparently, even if you don't excuse what he did. Why?

No, I kill him as well.

I guess it's nice to know you're indiscriminate in your moral justifications.

[thats1evildude]

Bad King wrote...

No, I kill him as well.

Walter?

[sylvanaerie]

Bad King wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Did you not even speak to the Lady when you played? Or Danyla? If you did you would have known that the curse lasted centuries, that those currently afflicted with it were INNOCENT of the crimes Zathrian cursed their ancestors with. That they had to deal with the pain of their blood on fire constantly. That they managed to regain their senses thanks to the Lady is beside the point because it didn't end their pain, only allowed them to control it enough to be sentient. They were still greatly suffering for a crime they did not commit and Zathrian was propagating this agony for centuries.

The werewolves tried a peaceful solution for many years, every time the clan's aravels came to the Brecelian forest, but Zathrian ignored their pleas. It wasn't till this last time they actually took action to get his attention in a desperate attempt to get him to lift the curse to save his own people.

And STILL Zathrian ignored not just the werewolves but his OWN people! All for his revenge on people who were long dead and beyond caring.

I wouldn't call what the werewolves did murder, I'd call it a last desperate act of self defense.

The first part of your reply has nothing to do with my original post: I am not defending Zathrian here or the fact that he maintained the curse for so long.

In regard to the latter part of your reply, I must disagree: the werewolf assault on the dalish elves was indeed murder- you don't defend yourself against innocent people that have caused you no harm. The werewolves' quarrel was with Zathrian and yet they happily sacrificed innocents in order to achieve their own ends. The ambush was indeed a means to force Zathrian to take action, but it was inevitable that many elves would die and yet the werewolves went along with it.

Blazomancer wrote...
I don't know if remember it well, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the werewolves only infect them with lycanthropy! I don't seem to remember that they outright murdered any elf in the ambush. It's Zathrian's reluctance to lift the curse, that with each passing day, the victims gradually transformed and some met their demise!

www.youtube.com/watch

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my response.  I was addressing your argument that if the curse is lifted, "they were allowed to get off without punishment for murdering the dalish".  I disagreed with this assessment and presented the reasoning for that argument.   My point was they were already being punished for a crime they never committed.  This includes those elves turned who weren't in the group with the Lady.  I never said you were excusing Zathrian, I was pointing out they were as much victims of Zathrian's hate as the elves who were attacked.  Danyla's in so much agony she begs you to kill her, and will attack you, forcing your hand if you try to talk her down.  What crime did she commit?  Or the other elves who were turned, who would be among the werewolves as well.  What crimes did they commit that warrent death?  Kind of hypocritical for you to pretend that murdering them is the moral high road.

Also at no point in the story did I hear they 'murdered Dalish'.  Only that they attacked them to infect them.  Kind of counter-productive to the plan if they kill them instead of turning them.  I doubt even those who turned were killed by the Dalish considering we run into Danyla in the forest after Zathrian had told Athras his wife was dead.  

And I view what the werewolves did as a last desperate act to get Zathrian's attention (right or wrong) not murder.  You are entitled to see it differently, that's entirely up to you and your own background/beliefs.  I'm not going to argue that with you.  Perception is a funny thing that way.  But i will point out, by the responses you've gotten and by the things you yourself admit you have read in the boards, you seem to be alone in this particular viewpoint.

[Ozzy]

Zathrian's rage and fury at the humans who committed such atrocities to his family is justified. His subsequent act of vengeance is also, although arguably so. The curse passing onto subsequent generations however is not. Such immense suffering endured to the sins of one's ancestors is incredibly cruel, especially to the extent that it was taken.

They had attempted numerous times to contact Zathrian and had been rebuked at every turn. The only way they could get the true attention of the clan was to resort to the measures that they did and force the issue to be brought to the forefront. It was less 'cold, calculating' and more an act of desperation.

[Bhryaen]

In terms of accuracy, I recall Swiftrunner bragging about killing elves in the initial ambush, not simply infecting them. May be mistaken. Obviously the intent was to force Zathrian to end the curse by afflicting his clan (at least if we believe the Lady of the Forest's account, though she admits the ambush was partly just for revenge), and the werewolves have rather cloudy judgment while suffering the violence-inducing curse, so it's not as if they're mere malevolent monsters who weren't capable of sparing the elves they attacked- and some did survive- but I thought the ambush did result in casualties. We can save that one elf in the woods, for instance, (who would've died otherwise) but the rest in his team were killed outright by werewolves. They don't spare the Warden and company either, fighting to the death every time. And we hear Swiftrunner more than once in the talk with the Lady growling "kill 'em all." Zathrian tries to get the Warden's empathy by drawing attention to it. Not to mention that they're willing to go kill all the elves despite that such a ludicrous act would trap them in werewolf form forever. They weren't exactly battling elves only to leave a few choice scratches.

One aspect I've never figured out. Do werewolves live forever? It never mentions the lifespan of werewolves or whether the original group of afflicted werewolves had long passed from the scene. If the curse gives them the same life extension as it does Zathrian, then many of the werewolves we meet may be from that original group of scumbag humans. So- although I've only done this in one playthrough (and that was more due to being a Dalish with fealty for the clan's Keeper)- I can see how killing them and Witherfang to be used as a cure for the surviving ambush victims could be seen as the more righteous path... and really the only path Zathrian should've ever used in the first place... even if some innocents were caught up in it. If the original afflicted humans are long dead though, there's no righteousness in it at all: you end up killing people that had nothing to do with the original crimes.

The primary reason to choose the Zathrian self-sacrifice route over others is due to how idiotic is the whole curse punishment. Bestowing upon murdering rapists even greater power and inclination to destroy and kill as well as the power to afflict others with exactly the same disposition... isn't a particularly well thought-out torture... And for an act of blind rage, it required an elaborate sequence of planning at any point of which Zathrian could've taken a moment to recognize how lame-brained the results would be. In any case the curse he concocted certainly wasn't a neutralization of the murdering rapists. Their blood can boil for eons, but a backfire element was built into the method. Zathrian should just end his stupid immediately... really... Even if it now lets the original murdering rapists finally go free, the facepalm-inducing debacle just needs to be over with already...

[Klidi]

This is the conflict that goes on for centuries - in fact, it began before the curse and BOTH parties were far from innocent.
I'm sure there were countless incidents and attacks before. Don't forget elves considered werewolves to be wild animals and hunted them. The elf from the video OP posted is the best proof that there are fanatics blinded with hate also among elves. Some of them in fact go as far as hunting former werewolves years after they became humans (in DA2).

But there are too many gray areas where the players doesn't have enough information.
- We don't know how long werewolves live, like Bhryaen said - though I think the curse is bound within the Lady, so Lady and Zathrian can't die till the other one lives and has nothing to do with werewolves or elves.
- We don't know how long it is since the werewolves regained their mind (but we know Zathrian knew and deliberately lied to others about it)
- We don't know if werewolves are somehow connected with wolves (they always attack together, in the forest) - elves hunt wolves as a proof they're adult hunters
- We don't know how many other elves knew about the curse (Lanaya did, maybe others as well) - and decided not to do anything about it
- We don't know if werewolves attacked ANY elves in the area, or only Zathrian's clan

The game doesn't tell the player anything about this, so everyone can make their own decisions. You can find reasons that justify killing werewolves, but you can find equally strong reasons that justify turning on the elves instead. And it doesn't differ only from player to player, but also from the Warden to Warden.   Aeducan or Cousland will most likely react differently than Mahariel...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

One aspect I've never figured out. Do werewolves live forever? It never mentions the lifespan of werewolves or whether the original group of afflicted werewolves had long passed from the scene.

The Lady outright states that the original offenders are long dead. I take that to mean that it either doesn't give them Zathrian-eque life extension, or doesn't help in that direction at all. In fact, considering how stressful being a werewolf sounds, I would not be surprised if the unhealthy state they're in makes their lives shorter.

[Sifr]

I agree it's somewhat ambiguous about the lifespan issue since Swiftrunner delivering parts of the tale make it sound like he was there, but then one can assume that all of the werewolves are intimately acquainted with the reasons for their suffering. Swiftrunner's comments that he was savage until he found the Lady imply that he was one of the later werewolves.

I have no idea why anyone would consider killing the Werewolves as justified, since they are innocent victims tired of being ignored by the one responsible for their suffering.

Consider if a King ignored the people who's lives he made miserable and one day, they launched a rebellion to overthrow him? Now, there's likely be casualties as a result of that, mostly those loyal to the King, but at the end of the day, could you then justify the execution of the rebels for causing the deaths of those who helped keep the King responsible for their misery in power?

It's precisely the same issue with the Werewolves and Zathrian. Sure the Dalish getting infected and killed is unfortunate, but in the end, they're just more casualties that are solely down on Zathrian's need to pointless vengeance against the long-dead.

Besides, he had already achieved his vengeance when he created Witherfang to hunt down the humans who had murdered his son and raped his daughter. The Werewolves were an unintended side-effect of his retribution, which had already been sated! Maintaining the curse for centuries and keeping those innocent in perpetual suffering, makes Zathrian clearly in the wrong overall!

As a final thought, considering that the Werewolves are trying to change, while Zathrian remains blinded by his hatred, it's pretty clear who has the moral high-ground... and it's not the guy with the pointy ears!

[Bhryaen]

riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The Lady outright states that the original offenders are long dead. I take that to mean that...

DAO is excellent for how it will have characters say one thing- and very convincingly- while the reality is completely different. The Lady says the original offenders are long dead, but could she be merely manipulating the Warden into being her pawn? You have no way to know for sure, no reason to just believe anything she says, and her testimony is the only "evidence" to go on. So I don't dismiss it, but I have no reason to take it as fact.

And there's more to consider. The main reason for the ambiguity for me is Zathrian's hatred. He talks to the werewolves as if they're the same ones he's been hating on from the start. If they're not, what the hellfire is he so pissed at them for? The ambush alone? Then why all the "you're STILL a bunch of savages!" If they're not the original werewolves, then who is "still" savage and deserving of contempt? Humans? The only reason they're werewolves and destructive and now planning ambushes is because of the very curse he himself has been perpetuating, so calling them "beasts" is more than a little superfluous. So either his hatred at them is completely idiotic (actually the more likely scenario) or they're the same ones and he's finally meeting with them again, intent on slaying them for that reason.

The Lady also says "we" have been trying to get Zathrian to meet with us and end the curse for, like, centuries. So who is the "we"? Herself and the original werewolves or herself and whichever werewolves are alive at that time and with her? And if the original ones are long dead (and Zathrian really ought to know if they would be since it is his curse after all), then why the reluctance to meet with them and lift the curse? He would know they're all innocent victims (werewolves don't only afflict people who are also murdering rapists)- some of which potentially could be elves. And with no reason to be enraged at such innocent victims as "still beasts" given that his curse makes them beasts, why make such an argument to justify staying hostile at them? So I have to at least consider if they're the original werewoves, just in a larger pack than they started with.

Perhaps Zathrian's refusal to end the curse is nothing more than a reluctance to die because being enraged at what amounts to the latest slew of victims of the original werewolves is beyond irrational. He was already known to be the type to do heroic deeds on behalf of victims of aggressors, as in the case of Lanaya, and the latest werewolves would fit that profile- even victims of the very ones he's supposedly been so enraged about. So end it already!

Modifié par Bhryaen, 24 août 2013 - 07:57 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zathrian's first few lines have him referencing the werewolves ancestors, which I think implies that these aren't the first generation weres. As for his hatred, it might be that the curse messes with him emotionally, or it might just be that he doesn't want to die, as you've noted.