119 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

No. I wanted Morinth to have a proper arch but she absolutely does not fit the party lol

[Ice Cold J]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

She didn't break her vow... Falere agreed to stay at the Monastery. No vow broken.

Rather than killing her daughter as required by the code Samara committed suicide (or would have killed herself without Shepard's intervention), demonstrating that Samara only cares about her code as long as it serves a convenient excuse for murder.

Umm... no.

Her code said no ardat-yakshi could live outside the monastery. She thought Falere was going to leave. If she could not allow her code to compel her to kill her last daughter, so the only way to keep herself from doing so was to commit suicide.
If she were bloodthirsty, she wouldn't have come up with the idea to ahve Shepard find the name of the SS Demeter in ME2. She simply would've killed Detective Enyala and carried on with her mission.

[Omega Torsk]

Mr.House wrote...

I don't invite headless people to my parties.

[AlexMBrennan]

Her code said no ardat-yakshi could live outside the monastery. She thought Falere was going to leave. If she could not allow her code to compel her to kill her last daughter, so the only way to keep herself from doing so was to commit suicide.

If she could not allow her code to compel her to kill her last daughter, so the only way to keep herself from doing so was to commit suicide.

You are not making any sense - if talking to her, and leaving her at the monastery was an option than she wouldn't have to kill herself to escape that compulsion.

Why does her code force her to kill her daughter if and only if Shepard doesn't stop her from committing suicide?

Further, if her duty is to kill the AY rather than letting them roam freely that she is still breaking her vows by intentionally committing suicide - if she truly believed in her code Samara should have killed her daughter and not herself but without Shepard's intervention that does not happen; this is what makes her a hypocrite - she follows her code when she wants, and abandons it when it becomes to painful.

At best though this is loophole abuse - the purpose of the monastery is obviously to keep the AY isolated, and the general population safe from them which clearly is no longer the case given that it has been completely destroyed.

If she were bloodthirsty, she wouldn't have come up with the idea to ahve Shepard find the name of the SS Demeter in ME2. She simply would've killed Detective Enyala and carried on with her mission.

Samara obviously realised that her approach - murdering everyone who knows anything without interrogating them - didn't work and decided to try something else. In any case, Samara killing that mercenary is an act of murder which is what my comment is about (hint for writers: if you don't want us to hate a character, don't make the first shot of them murder)

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 22 août 2013 - 02:37 .

[KaiserShep]

The Eclipse sisters are all murderers. It's all good.

[Hazegurl]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You don't know what you're getting into with Morinth

I suppose he's trying to argue that people like Morinth will always betray you whilst Samara may or may not, making Morinth the more predictable person.

Pretty much this.

[Hazegurl]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You don't know what you're getting into with Morinth

I suppose he's trying to argue that people like Morinth will always betray you whilst Samara may or may not, making Morinth the more predictable person.

Perhaps, but then I'd ask why someone would think Samara was going to betray them. 

"If you do anything dishonorable, I may be forced to kill you"

After the mission is over. 

So there's not ambiguity, and it's not a betrayal. 

Morinth on the other hand serves only herself. 

It is still a more valid reason to just off her and get it over with.  My Shep is a dishonorable guy so he isn't taking any chances.

[Br3admax]

So you kill Samara who may kill you sometime in the future just cuz, for Morinth who has definitely just tried to kill you a few minutes prior? How that makes any sense to anyone is bewildering.

[KaiserShep]

There is no really good reason to pick Morinth over Samara. You have one who apparently kills dishonorable people, and another who kills *anyone* who piques her interest, because sex vampire reasons. The Morinth option is more of the evil-for-the-heck-of-it part of the story, which makes it all the better that she becomes a banshee later.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 22 août 2013 - 02:55 .

[Hazegurl]

KaiserShep wrote: You have one who apparently kills dishonorable people...

And my Shep is not honorable. Pretty much reason number one to off her right there.  I picked Mornith because I found her more interesting, I love free spirits. From a story(head canon) pov, Mornith is more predictable, my Shep is not an honorable man which means there is a high chance that Samara would make do on her threat whereas Mornith is a danger if I have sex with her, something I never planned to do. If Mornith tries to kill me, out the airlock she goes. It's not like I wouldn't be expecting it.  Plus, I love it when elements of a story is unpredictable.
Help the self-righteous do gooder kill her evil daughter-_-
Help the murdering daughter kill her do gooder mother.

Bye bye Samara. I have no regrets offing you.

[Br3admax]

But you just said that you want Morinth because she is more predictable.....

[Ice Cold J]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Her code said no ardat-yakshi could live outside the monastery. She thought Falere was going to leave. If she could not allow her code to compel her to kill her last daughter, so the only way to keep herself from doing so was to commit suicide.

If she could not allow her code to compel her to kill her last daughter, so the only way to keep herself from doing so was to commit suicide.

You are not making any sense - if talking to her, and leaving her at the monastery was an option than she wouldn't have to kill herself to escape that compulsion.

Why does her code force her to kill her daughter if and only if Shepard doesn't stop her from committing suicide?

Further, if her duty is to kill the AY rather than letting them roam freely that she is still breaking her vows by intentionally committing suicide - if she truly believed in her code Samara should have killed her daughter and not herself but without Shepard's intervention that does not happen; this is what makes her a hypocrite - she follows her code when she wants, and abandons it when it becomes to painful.

At best though this is loophole abuse - the purpose of the monastery is obviously to keep the AY isolated, and the general population safe from them which clearly is no longer the case given that it has been completely destroyed.

If she were bloodthirsty, she wouldn't have come up with the idea to ahve Shepard find the name of the SS Demeter in ME2. She simply would've killed Detective Enyala and carried on with her mission.

Samara obviously realised that her approach - murdering everyone who knows anything without interrogating them - didn't work and decided to try something else. In any case, Samara killing that mercenary is an act of murder which is what my comment is about (hint for writers: if you don't want us to hate a character, don't make the first shot of them murder)

Falere hadn't volunteered to stay before Samara prepared to commit suicide. When she does, Samara realizes that the code could still be with-held and everyone could live.

Not entirely true. Although the code dictates that she kill ardat-yakshi not in the confines of a monastery, if she commits suicide, she is not BREAKING her code. She is not allowing the A-Y to leave, because she is taking away her power to do anything to stop her. So, she is breaking it by allowing her to leave, but she is NOT breaking it because she is not disobeying it: she's removing herself from the equation.

The only time she really goes agaionst her code is by pledging her allegiance to Shepard,. Even then, it is explained. Let's not forget, her code has (EDIT) more than 5000 sutras, all of which cover every possible scenario and I'm sure they also have a priority/heirarchy. We don't know where this scenario lies within her code.

And she is killing someone who is unjust... as per her code. If what you're saying is the case, it could be argued that Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Jack, and Thane are all also unlikable, since they all are killing people within their first 1-2 scenes.

Modifié par Ice Cold J, 22 août 2013 - 04:55 .

[Hazegurl]

Br3ad wrote...

But you just said that you want Morinth because she is more predictable.....

Yeah, I said it more than once and I haven't said differently, all but adding on to my reasons for wanting her over her mother.

[Excella Gionne]

"Enough, Morinth!" Love the mother and daughter fight!

[AlexMBrennan]

She is not allowing the A-Y to leave, because she is taking away her power to do anything to stop her. So, she is breaking it by allowing her to leave, but she is NOT breaking it because she is not disobeying it: she's removing herself from the equation.

If Alice is downing and Bob can save her without any risk to him and does not then he's a dick. If Bob instead jumps off a cliff and kills himself then he's still a dick because he caused (through inaction/action respectively ) Alice's death.

If what you're saying is the case, it could be argued that Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Jack, and Thane are all also unlikable, since they all are killing people within their first 1-2 scenes.

The word I used is "murder". Killing an enemy soldier in combat is not murder, but killing him after he has surrendered is and is also a war crime.

Killing someone in self defence is not murder, but executing someone after neutralising the threat is.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 22 août 2013 - 09:11 .

[Br3admax]

Hazegurl wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

But you just said that you want Morinth because she is more predictable.....

Yeah, I said it more than once and I haven't said differently, all but adding on to my reasons for wanting her over her mother.

So you like it when the story is unpredictable, but you want the characters to be set in stone absolutely? That's just weird.

[Ice Cold J]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

She is not allowing the A-Y to leave, because she is taking away her power to do anything to stop her. So, she is breaking it by allowing her to leave, but she is NOT breaking it because she is not disobeying it: she's removing herself from the equation.

If Alice is downing and Bob can save her without any risk to him and does not then he's a dick. If Bob instead jumps off a cliff and kills himself then he's still a dick because he caused (through inaction/action respectively ) Alice's death.

If what you're saying is the case, it could be argued that Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Jack, and Thane are all also unlikable, since they all are killing people within their first 1-2 scenes.

The word I used is "murder". Killing an enemy soldier in combat is not murder, but killing him after he has surrendered is and is also a war crime.

Killing someone in self defence is not murder, but executing someone after neutralising the threat is.

Does Alice has a predispostion to becoming a serial killer?

And I doubt Bob is a Justicar. Even so, this situation is far more complicated.

No one ever really said Samara's code is 100% the right thing to do. We've seen it since ME2. Sometimes it's just the lesser of two evils.


And Samara isn't killing someone who surrendered, just someone who she is able to subdue AS THE SCENE UNFOLDS. In fact, she gives her two chances to surrender, and the Eclipse merc doesn't take either of them, but raises her gun.



And even if that's the case, both MIranda and Thane are first scene killing people who are presently no threat to them.

[AlexMBrennan]

Does Alice has a predispostion to becoming a serial killer?

And I doubt Bob is a Justicar. Even so, this situation is far more complicated.

Red herring - please explain how it is better to let someone come to harm (and just to point out the obvious but Falere isn't Alice in this analogy but the shark in the water) through deliberately killing yourself than by deliberate inaction I.e. just watching.

And Samara isn't killing someone who surrendered, just someone who she is able to subdue AS THE SCENE UNFOLDS. In fact, she gives her two chances to surrender, and the Eclipse merc doesn't take either of them, but raises her gun.

Are we even watching the same video? Go to 0:45 - Samara is choking the unarmed mercenary, and kills her with a vicious foot-twist-stomp-thingy when the merc refuses to answer questions. As I said in my post (the part which you presumably haven't read), killing someone who doesn't pose a threat is murder.

That mercenary is a criminal, fine, but that means that you are essentially saying that it's a capital offence to not yield to torture (threats of death are a form of torture) which requires immediate extrajudicial execution. Have you been to the real world lately?

Yeah, sure, Bioware writers can make whatever justicar nonsense canon, and might decide that laws have changed and that the universal declaration of human rights no longer applies but that doesn't change the fact that the game, to a normal human benign living in civilised society, will look as absurd as A Modest Proposal

[Hazegurl]

Br3ad wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

But you just said that you want Morinth because she is more predictable.....

Yeah, I said it more than once and I haven't said differently, all but adding on to my reasons for wanting her over her mother.

So you like it when the story is unpredictable, but you want the characters to be set in stone absolutely? That's just weird.

I never said I liked a character to be set in stone. But If I put myself in my Shepard's shoes, he'd rather take his chances with Mornith who would have nothing against him when the mission is over(no morals) and he knows to remain focused on the idea of her killing him then allowing his guard to drop around someone appearing to be "safe" until she comes after him over some honor code nonsense.

This, to him, makes Morinth desire to kill him more predictable, he can see it coming as he knows she already desires him and thus wants to kill him, whereas Samara leaves too many open questions to fully trust. It doesn't mean the Morinth character over all is predictable, just her motivations to my Shep.

[Ice Cold J]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Red herring - please explain how it is better to let someone come to harm (and just to point out the obvious but Falere isn't Alice in this analogy but the shark in the water) through deliberately killing yourself than by deliberate inaction I.e. just watching. 

And Samara isn't killing someone who surrendered, just someone who she is able to subdue AS THE SCENE UNFOLDS. In fact, she gives her two chances to surrender, and the Eclipse merc doesn't take either of them, but raises her gun.

Are we even watching the same video? Go to 0:45 - Samara is choking the unarmed mercenary, and kills her with a vicious foot-twist-stomp-thingy when the merc refuses to answer questions. As I said in my post (the part which you presumably haven't read), killing someone who doesn't pose a threat is murder.

That mercenary is a criminal, fine, but that means that you are essentially saying that it's a capital offence to not yield to torture (threats of death are a form of torture) which requires immediate extrajudicial execution. Have you been to the real world lately?

Yeah, sure, Bioware writers can make whatever justicar nonsense canon, and might decide that laws have changed and that the universal declaration of human rights no longer applies but that doesn't change the fact that the game, to a normal human benign living in civilised society, will look as absurd as A Modest Proposal

1. Yeah, that analogy isn't making sense. Now Falere is a shark? What shark? 

2. And Samara gave the mercenary 2 chances to surrender, yet the merc raised her weapon and threatened to kill her.

Samara gave her yet a 3rd chance. Mercenary again told her to go to hell. Had Samara NOT killed her, there's a chance the merc takes the opportunity to attack her again.

Samara's not Batman: she isn't a forgiver. That's not her code. Her code is to punish the unjust. The mercenary was unjust. Clear as that.