947 réponses à ce sujet

[WildOrchid]

Blackrising wrote...

WildOrchid wrote...

Sigh. I give up.

Welcome to the club.
Grab a seat, have a cookie and pretend every post is nothing but kittens.

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See? Guaranteed to make you feel slightly less bitter about the world.

Ah kittens, they always make me feel good.
Some here don't even understand that humans are complicated, so why bother.

[Chari]

Taleroth wrote...

Chari wrote...

Because we love complex, alive characters who feel like real people?

But you don't like complex, alive worlds that feel like real worlds?

I didn't say that.
A complex world consist of diverse people with different outlooks at life. Different tastes, different preferences, different beliefs.
Oghren may think my elven heroine is an ugly hag or Sten may think that she is a callow basra and that Qun is the only way. Wynne may bug her all day about the relationship with Alistair or Zevran. Lelianna may seem biased at times with her "beautiful elves" ideas.
But that's the way I love them. They're not created to please me, but to inspire to see that... people are different, not all are perfect, not all are the same. 

[Cirram55]

Chari wrote...
They're not created to please me

They're not created to please me

They're not created to please me

FFS! So why are you still talking?

[Chari]

Cirram55 wrote...

Chari wrote...
They're not created to please me

They're not created to please me

They're not created to please me

FFS! So why are you still talking?

Because I can?.. 
This is the point fans seem to miss. Characters do not have to be everything fans want them to be. Making a character in a specific way just to please the fanbase ignoring lore or the plot is... eh, it's sad

[Nyneve]

How about all gay characters! Then we could have a wide range of personalities that make sense and not everyone would be included and pandered to, right ?

[Taleroth]

Chari wrote...


I didn't say that.

Because you dodged the question. Why is it important that characters grow from rippling effects of sexuality when the world itself does not similarly ripple because of major choice differences?

A complex world consist of diverse people with different outlooks at life. Different tastes, different preferences, different beliefs.

Also different events.

Oghren may think my elven heroine is an ugly hag or Sten may think that she is a callow basra and that Qun is the only way. Wynne may bug her all day about the relationship with Alistair or Zevran. Lelianna may seem biased at times with her "beautiful elves" ideas.

And Oghren may view life differently if his time as a Warden was with the hero of Fereldan or with the Orlesian Commander. Yet I can assure you if he shows up again, it won't be a big difference either way. It certainly didn't matter to Anders.

But that's the way I love them. They're not created to please me, but to inspire to see that... people are different, not all are perfect, not all are the same. 

Actually they're created to be "interesting" to people. Most romances are included in these games just to please people. Like 9 out of 10. Why is it only a problem now?

It's good that you see they're not created to please you. Then you should have no problem with this.

Modifié par Taleroth, 31 août 2013 - 04:01 .

[WildOrchid]

^There's nothing in DA's character's lore that defines their sexuality or saying she is this, he is this, so they're not changing anything.

Modifié par WildOrchid, 31 août 2013 - 04:00 .

[Cirram55]

Chari wrote...
Because I can?...

'Course you can, but it's getting tedious and ridiculous.

This is the point fans seem to miss. Characters do not have to be everything fans want them to be. Making a character in a specific way just to please the fanbase ignoring lore or the plot is... eh, it's sad

So you won't mind if in a game some characters will be gay and others straight, while in the next game (just for variety's sake) the whole FOUR of them will be bisexual with one strictly straight?

EDIT I think it's pretty clear that you're running in circles and you're stuck in a corner now, contradicting yourself. Why can't you move on?

Modifié par Cirram55, 31 août 2013 - 04:07 .

[WildOrchid]

Marten Stroud wrote...


All straight characters would make more sense to me.

All gay characters would make more sense to me.

[Chari]

Taleroth wrote...

Chari wrote...


I didn't say that.

Because you dodged the question. Why is it important that characters grow from rippling effects of sexuality when the world itself does not similarly ripple because of major choice differences?

A complex world consist of diverse people with different outlooks at life. Different tastes, different preferences, different beliefs.

Also different events.

Oghren may think my elven heroine is an ugly hag or Sten may think that she is a callow basra and that Qun is the only way. Wynne may bug her all day about the relationship with Alistair or Zevran. Lelianna may seem biased at times with her "beautiful elves" ideas.

And Oghren may view life differently if his time as a Warden was with the hero of Fereldan or with the Orlesian Commander. Yet I can assure you if he shows up again, it won't be a big difference either way. It certainly didn't matter to Anders.

But that's the way I love them. They're not created to please me, but to inspire to see that... people are different, not all are perfect, not all are the same. 

Actually they're created to be "interesting" to people. Most romances are included in these games just to please people. Like 9 out of 10. Why is it only a problem now?

It's good that you see they're not created to please you. Then you should have no problem with this.

It doesn't? Just because there is no homophobic orders it doesn't mean it doesn't. It still considered to be weird in some places. Unless all the characters come from Orlais and Tevinter...
It still shaped him differently. Depending on the Warden's actions he can become a better father or ignore his family at all. He can hate the Warden, he can love the Warden, he can be neutral. 
You don't see the difference between mindless fan pandering and making interesting characters. They are all made to make us feel love or hate, interest. It doesn't mean they have to please us and agree with every our quirk

[Nyneve]

Marten Stroud wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

How about all gay characters! Then we could have a wide range of personalities that make sense and not everyone would be included and pandered to, right ?

All straight characters would make more sense to me.

Why? Would make the exact same sense to me. I wouldn't actually want it that way, bu I'd like to see how the crowd who says that bi LI's are unnecessary fanservice would react if they don't get their fanservice.

[Chari]

Cirram55 wrote...

Chari wrote...
Because I can?...

'Course you can, but it's getting tedious and ridiculous.

This is the point fans seem to miss. Characters do not have to be everything fans want them to be. Making a character in a specific way just to please the fanbase ignoring lore or the plot is... eh, it's sad

So you won't mind if in a game some characters will be gay and others straight, while in the next game (just for variety's sake) the whole FOUR of them will be bisexual with one strictly straight?

EDIT I think it's pretty clear that you're running in circles and you're stuck in a corner now, contradicting yourself. Why can't you move on?

What kind of variety it is if all characters have the same sexuality? Sebastian doesn't count.. Firstly, he's a DLC character. Secondly... he is Sebastian.
DA:O has two types of sexuality. DA2 - one. So much for diversity
You're the one losing temper here :3 I never got myself in a corner, otherwise I'd be maad But I'm only amused by your behaviour.

[Chari]

Nyneve wrote...

Marten Stroud wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

How about all gay characters! Then we could have a wide range of personalities that make sense and not everyone would be included and pandered to, right ?

All straight characters would make more sense to me.

Why? Would make the exact same sense to me. I wouldn't actually want it that way, bu I'd like to see how the crowd who says that bi LI's are unnecessary fanservice would react if they don't get their fanservice.

The only fanservice I'd love to see is qunari or kossith fanservice. Won't happen. Ever XD
I'm fine with that

[Blackrising]

Chari wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

Marten Stroud wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

How about all gay characters! Then we could have a wide range of personalities that make sense and not everyone would be included and pandered to, right ?

All straight characters would make more sense to me.

Why? Would make the exact same sense to me. I wouldn't actually want it that way, bu I'd like to see how the crowd who says that bi LI's are unnecessary fanservice would react if they don't get their fanservice.

The only fanservice I'd love to see is qunari or kossith fanservice. Won't happen. Ever XD
I'm fine with that

In other words, fanservice is fine as long as it pleases YOU.

[Chari]

Blackrising wrote...

Chari wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

Marten Stroud wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

How about all gay characters! Then we could have a wide range of personalities that make sense and not everyone would be included and pandered to, right ?

All straight characters would make more sense to me.

Why? Would make the exact same sense to me. I wouldn't actually want it that way, bu I'd like to see how the crowd who says that bi LI's are unnecessary fanservice would react if they don't get their fanservice.

The only fanservice I'd love to see is qunari or kossith fanservice. Won't happen. Ever XD
I'm fine with that

In other words, fanservice is fine as long as it pleases YOU.

Don't put words in my mouth, silly XD I never said that
I said that I'll never get the fanservice I want. And it's okay because it doesn't matter if I get my qunari LI as long as the story is good

[Cirram55]

Chari wrote...
Sebastian doesn't count. Firstly, he's a DLC character. Secondly... he is Sebastian.

"This doesn't count because it invalidates my point and I'm absolutely correct".
This kind of logic kills my brain every time.

DA:O has two types of sexuality. DA2 - one. So much for diversity.

It's a game I buy for enjoyment. If DAII gives me more than DAO then I consider its approach a gain and an improvement. Also, only your LI are bisexual. You have all kinds of diversity ranging from Aveline and Donnic to Bethany and the Circle mage girl whose name I always forget.

You're the one losing temper here :3 I never got myself in a corner, otherwise I'd be maad

No, I just get irritated when people randomly start to put faces everywhere they don't make sense to show how cool they are, instead of having a constructive discussion.

But I'm only amused by your behaviour.

That's why you are a troll.

Modifié par Cirram55, 31 août 2013 - 04:25 .

[WildOrchid]

Marten Stroud wrote...

Good thing for me that straight people are the primary target audience. 

You call this a good thing? Trying to make us feel like 'secondary'? Well, that was nice of you.
Thank god Bioware (DA team) is smart enough to not pander to you straight people like the rest stupidly does.

Marten Stroud wrote...Ideally, everyone should be equally represented, though.

If you mean DA romances, yes. With fair treatment, not 4584356978 straights and 2 gays.

[Chari]

Cirram55 wrote...

Chari wrote...
Sebastian doesn't count. Firstly, he's a DLC character. Secondly... he is Sebastian.

"This doesn't count because it invalidates my point and I'm absolutely correct".
This kind of logic kills my brain every time.

DA:O has two types of sexuality. DA2 - one. So much for diversity.

It's a game I buy for enjoyment. If DAII gives me more than DAO then I consider its approach a gain and an improvement. Also, only your LI are bisexual. You have all kinds of diversity ranging from Aveline and Donnic to Bethany and the Circle mage girl whose name I always forget.

You're the one losing temper here :3

No, I just get irritated when people start randomly put faces everywhere when they don't make sense, instead of having a constructive discussion.

But I'm only amused by your behaviour.

That's why you are a troll.

Sebastian is as much of LI as Jacob is. Plus he is the DLC, meaning that his part is more optional than everything else. Like Sheila or Javik. He is not in the default basic game

I'm talking about LIs, not all NPCs in the game.

So far the only reason most of you brought up is fanservice. And that's it. So much for constructive discussion :3

I'm quite honest I didn't come here to make new debates, I just express my opinion which is different from yours. And, well, I guess having an opinion makes me a bad person XD

[Neon Rising Winter]

I think you're confusing legal relationships such as marriage, with emotional ones. In the societies you're using as illustrations marriage would be more to do with inheritance and control of property, political power and social position than an emotional relationship. Looking to marriage as an indicator is deceptive.

The culture influences a person's tastes and beliefs. If a person is brought up in a country where traditional marriage is valued then they'll carry on these beliefs. Of course people are different, personal experience is also important but some basic things will always be a part of a person's mind. Like a western person will always see black as a "bad" colour and "white" as a colour of life, while a person from Asia may have a totally different outlook since in some cultures white is a colour of death etc.
Of course it doesn't mean that everyone will think like that but... majority prefers to follow the classical and familiar way of life. Not everyone is a rebel at heart 

On reflection what I'm doing is falling into the trap of taking my ideas far too seriously. It's a fictional world with a necessarily simple fictional culture. Any number of interpretations could sensibly be imposed on it because it's so loosely defined. And naturally my interpretations reflect my interests and your interpretations reflect yours. Mind you it's still a fun thought experiment, and interesting to see how many very different cultures can be envisaged from the existing information.

Following on from that, you give the idea of something as simple as colours influencing peoples outlook. I think that's a good example of why these fictional cultures could leap in any one of the ways being argued. All it would take is three or four things like that being established as part of the culture that has just been so far unseen and you could use is to angle the viewpoint in any number of ways.

(Edited for messing up my quotes!)

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 31 août 2013 - 04:28 .

[Chari]

WildOrchid wrote...

Marten Stroud wrote...

Good thing for me that straight people are the primary target audience. 

You call this a good thing? Trying to make us feel like 'secondary'? Well, that was nice of you.
Thank god Bioware (DA team) is smart enough to not pander to you straight people like the rest stupidly does.

Marten Stroud wrote...Ideally, everyone should be equally represented, though.

If you mean DA romances, yes. With fair treatment, not 4584356978 straights and 2 gays.

So pandering bi and gays is good... pandering straight is bad.
Bad implications here, girl Or boy..

[WildOrchid]

Chari wrote...


So pandering bi and gays is good... pandering straight is bad.
Bad implications here, girl Or boy..

Considering how the games always pander straight people, yes pandering only the straights is bad. Sorry. If you were gay or bi, you could feel the same as I do. But you're in a privileged place, so you can't understand.


@Marten. DAO. 2 straight, 2 bi, 0 gays. Do the math. Even if Leliana or Zevran were romanced by the same gender, is only one romance for us. And you had literally 4 LIs available. That's why I consider DA2 the best in romance department.

Don't get me started on ME.

Modifié par WildOrchid, 31 août 2013 - 04:36 .

[Chari]

Narrow Margin wrote...
On reflection what I'm doing is falling into the trap of taking my ideas far too seriously. It's a fictional world with a necessarily simple fictional culture. Any number of interpretations could sensibly be imposed on it because it's so loosely defined. And naturally my interpretations reflect my interests and your interpretations reflect yours. Mind you it's still a fun thought experiment, and interesting to see how many very different cultures can be envisaged from the existing information.

Following on from that, you give the idea of something as simple as colours influencing peoples outlook. I think that's a good example of why these fictional cultures could leap in any one of the ways being argued. All it would take is three or four things like that being established as part of the culture that has just been so far unseen and you could use is to angle the viewpoint in any number of ways.

That is true. We don't know enough about other cultures to predict how they'll react to such things. Though some things are commonly known. Marriage is still a neccessity, so is making babies. Though the Thedas is quite neutral, it is still quite traditional as well in its beliefs. Majority of people consists of peasants, citizens and travellers who are content with this way of life - the way they're used to. So it is only logical that majoirty of them will likely be more interested in the opposite sex. Even if they aren't there is that marriage one can not cancel and cheating is... well, not the best way to start a family life, right? Life is still hard. 
Thedas may be a better place for people of different sexualities, but it is still not perfect