89 réponses à ce sujet

[Wizard of Ox]

megabeast37215 wrote...

KroGan_eRRanT wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

I don't think Throw is in the discussion personally... What it has in speed it loses terribly in the raw damage department. Even with a Power Amp IV, Pistol Power Amp mod and Adaptive War Amp it does next to nothing. This is evidenced on the Fury... How many BEs does it take her to kill a Gold Atlas... Like 20?

Raw damage matters.

She's still more efficient against mooks, which cerberus is mostly composed of, to further your exemple. One acolyte shot follow by a throw kills any cerberus unit, including phantoms - on gold. You can't do that with BS. You don't keep on spamming Throw against atlases, you cast Dark Channel and use you gun. 
Raw damage matters, I agree, but different factors are to be taken into account.  
EDIT: not dragoons, sorry. 

You can fire the Acolyte, then follow it with Biotic Slash and kill all the same things you can with the Fury's AF+Throw combo. In fact... You can fire the Acolyte in the middle of the Biotic Slash animation for an even faster TTK.

Now I acknowledge that the Fury will be onto the next target quicker... But you can also make a counter argument that Slash already damaged that target while it was killing the first one.

We should leave the Acolyte out of this though.... This is about the ability of powers and the amps you can use to beef them up, not guns.

I easily agree that BS is a great detonator, if you have someone priming the targets for you. Under those conditions I'd say that that it wins over Smash due to its range and over Cluster Grenades due to the dependency of the former on ammo. 

With a team with synergy and coordination, BS wins. But, as the Slayer can't detonate BEs on his own, it loses to Clusters, Shockwave and Smash otherwise. Further, spamming BS is really boring. Playing a Vanguard, and the Slayer especially, makes you move around the map and, therefore, separates you from your priming teammates.

It's a good power for sure, clearly underrated, but the best detonator I'm not sure…it depends on the team.  

Modifié par KroGan_eRRanT, 19 août 2013 - 11:03 .

[KalGerion_Beast]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Cluster Grenade because it has a combination of massive amounts of damage plus the ability to potentially detonate multiple BEs in a single use.

Smash and Slash both meet that criteria, and they both have a +50% BE evo.

How much damage does a 6/6 BE with no evos do on Gold anyway? I know it scales with difficulty... If anyone would know the numbers I figure you would.

Wat

Smash does not have a BE evo...

[megabeast37215]

IMaster757 wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Cluster Grenade because it has a combination of massive amounts of damage plus the ability to potentially detonate multiple BEs in a single use.

Smash and Slash both meet that criteria, and they both have a +50% BE evo.

How much damage does a 6/6 BE with no evos do on Gold anyway? I know it scales with difficulty... If anyone would know the numbers I figure you would.

Wat

Smash does not have a BE evo...

Derp... You're right...

[megabeast37215]

@Krogan_errant

I'm not advocating spamming Biotic Slash. It has a place in the Slayer's repertoire though... I like to lead in with it. See spawn through wall, cast Slash, come around the corner spamming PD, charge, spam more PD... That's how I like to attack with him. It's a great tool for softening spawns.

Also... You're right about Slash needing team synergy to work... But that's another factor that makes a good Slayer. Being able to identify a primed target and knowing that Slash is the better option instead of Charge/PD... In that particular scenario. There's always time for PD/Charge after ripping a spawn with Slash once or twice.

[Cyonan]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Cluster Grenade because it has a combination of massive amounts of damage plus the ability to potentially detonate multiple BEs in a single use.

Smash and Slash both meet that criteria, and they both have a +50% BE evo.

How much damage does a 6/6 BE with no evos do on Gold anyway? I know it scales with difficulty... If anyone would know the numbers I figure you would.

Smash can't detonate multiple BEs per cast as far as I know. It has to be multiple fragments/pulses in order to do that.

On Gold, a BE does 843.75 damage, increased by 100% against barriers and armour.

Modifié par Cyonan, 19 août 2013 - 11:15 .

[Miniditka77]

Best detonator has to be Throw or Shockwave.  Throw has the advantage of quick spammability and very long range.  Shockwave has the 65% modifier and the ability to hit multiple targets and go through walls, and is pretty much impossible to dodge if aimed correctly.  I think the "best" depends on what your primer power is.  If it's a single-target primer (e.g., Warp), then Throw is the best.  If it's a multi-target primer (e.g., Reave), then Shockwave is the best.

A lot of people say Cluster Grenades, and I disagree.  Cluster Grenades are awesome, but detonating explosions is just a side benefit.  They would still be more awesome than most other powers even if they didn't detonate explosions.

EDIT:  Re Biotic Slash - it's also a great detonator, and an extremely underrated power (maybe most underrated on the game).  Its long, awkward cast animation and limited range are downsides though.  I prefer Shockwave.

Modifié par Miniditka77, 19 août 2013 - 11:20 .

[Cyonan]

Miniditka77 wrote...

EDIT:  Re Biotic Slash - it's also a great detonator, and an extremely underrated power (maybe most underrated on the game).  Its long, awkward cast animation and limited range are downsides though.  I prefer Shockwave.

I think Biotic and Electrical Slash just get a bad reputation around here because of pugs that sit behind walls and do nothing but spam those abilities.

That, and Phase Disruptor is better for personal score.

[megabeast37215]

Cyonan wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

EDIT:  Re Biotic Slash - it's also a great detonator, and an extremely underrated power (maybe most underrated on the game).  Its long, awkward cast animation and limited range are downsides though.  I prefer Shockwave.

I think Biotic and Electrical Slash just get a bad reputation around here because of pugs that sit behind walls and do nothing but spam those abilities.

That, and Phase Disruptor is better for personal score.

Pretty much. 

Everytime those two powers are brought up, there is always a contingent that says, "sitting behind a wall spamming Slash is blah blah blah." It's like they can't fathom the idea that a player can use those powers and still utilize the rest of the kit. I don't get the all or nothing attitude... I can see where it comes from (terribad pugs) but I like to give BSNers the benefit of the doubt that they don't play the Slayer and Shadow that way.

[Cohen le Barbare]

My main beef against biotic slash and electric slash is the awful screen-shake. It's fine otherwise.

[megabeast37215]

@miniditka

I like what Shockwave brings to the table for the most part. I'm not very fond of the shoddy hit detection, or the ****** poor damage it does (which is why I think Smash and Slash a better detonators)... But I really like that Shockwave can also be a primer with the rank 6 lifting Shockwave evo.

I never have hit detection issues with Slash however... Which makes no sense. Also... Shockwave has a habit of the projectile sitting in one place and not moving for me sometimes. It just keeps wub-wub-wubbing in place and never advances sometimes. It is a very buggy power.

[Wizard of Ox]

@megabeast

I agree that BS is great power and that, properly used, it's really powerful. I was just pointing out that it lacks independence from priming by other players, which I think should be taken into account - one needs to be able to detonate to be a great detonator. I'll admit, on the other hand, that this is mainly theoretical and that it is quite pointless to compare detonators by placing one contender in a position which it won't be able to detonate anything in.

To be fair, I don't really know what power wins, but BS is most certainly a very strong contender.

Modifié par KroGan_eRRanT, 19 août 2013 - 11:31 .

[Evil]

Miniditka77 wrote...

Throw has the advantage of quick spammability and very long range.  Shockwave has the 65% modifier and the ability to hit multiple targets and go through walls, and is pretty much impossible to dodge if aimed correctly.
I think the "best" depends *snip*

He has a good point.
"Best" is highly subjective, and not solely about damage.
The ability to hit the target, the possibility to hit and detonate more than one target, the multiplier to the detonation, the recast time, the cc potential on anything that isn't primed when used as a panic button, and bonus effects are all factors.
Reave is poor for raw damage, for example, but the dot, DR, multitarget hit, and hitscan effects make it a must-max on every kit that has it.
If this thread is solely concerned with which detonator dishes out the most damage, it's cluster grenades.
But that's not the thread's title.

[IamZAE]

Asari infiltrator dark channel warp. I'm not sure exact math, but with power amp 4,adaptive war amp, tack cloak spec for max damage/power damage. And passives spec for power damage, plus the 15% debuff of warp + the extra armor barrier evo spec for warp. The actual warp damage is actually really strong. Someone should try that

edit: warp spec for extra 50% biotic explosion damage of course

Modifié par IamZAE, 19 août 2013 - 11:44 .

[Tech Domain]

If we're not taking raw damage of the power alone into account, then we're either looking at Throw for it's versatility, or Shockwave for its higher BE combo bonus.

Smash and Biotic Slash are let down by their long animation, which doesn't make them reliable enough in my book.

[megabeast37215]

Evil Mastered wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

Throw has the advantage of quick spammability and very long range.  Shockwave has the 65% modifier and the ability to hit multiple targets and go through walls, and is pretty much impossible to dodge if aimed correctly.
I think the "best" depends *snip*

He has a good point.
"Best" is highly subjective, and not solely about damage.
The ability to hit the target, the possibility to hit and detonate more than one target, the multiplier to the detonation, the recast time, the cc potential on anything that isn't primed when used as a panic button, and bonus effects are all factors.
Reave is poor for raw damage, for example, but the dot, DR, multitarget hit, and hitscan effects make it a must-max on every kit that has it.
If this thread is solely concerned with which detonator dishes out the most damage, it's cluster grenades.
But that's not the thread's title.

Very true... Im Really just interested in hearing people's opinions and bouncing ideas off of them. Damn... I sound like Red John... 

I think 'best' for me encompasses all those things... Which is why my opinion is that Biotic Slash and Cluster Grenades are the best two.

[megabeast37215]

IamZAE wrote...

Asari infiltrator dark channel warp. I'm not sure exact math, but with power amp 4,adaptive war amp, tack cloak spec for max damage/power damage. And passives spec for power damage, plus the 15% debuff of warp + the extra armor barrier evo spec for warp. The actual warp damage is actually really strong. Someone should try that

edit: warp spec for extra 50% biotic explosion damage of course

It's up there for sure. Only the Huntress can make Warp hit as strong as all the primo raw damage biotic powers.

[Evil]

megabeast37215 wrote...

I think 'best' for me encompasses all those things... Which is why my opinion is that Biotic Slash and Cluster Grenades are the best two.

I've never really tried Biotic slash as a biotic detonater, strange as that might sound.
The fact that Phase disruptor doesn't detonate biotics, only tech makes the N7 slayer a vanguard I use with tech teams, not with biotics.
Especially since this kit loves incindiary and disruptor ammo, which biotic teams hate.
If one were to ignore that, and focus on just the power, not the one kit it's on, then yes, Biotic slash actually has a lot to offer.
Multi-hit, decent range, decent damage, big detonations, can be fired through walls.
Any weapon based kits nearby might offer a different opinion, however.

[megabeast37215]

Evil Mastered wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

I think 'best' encompasses all those things... Which is why my opinion is that Biotic Slash and Cluster Grenades are the best two.

I've never really tried Biotic slash as a biotic detonater, strange as that might sound.
The fact that Phase disruptor doesn't detonate biotics, only tech makes the N7 slayer a vanguard I use with tech teams, not with biotics.
Especially since this kit loves incindiary and disruptor ammo, which biotic teams hate.
If one were to ignore that, and focus on just the power, not the one kit it's on, then yes, Biotic slash actually has a lot to offer.
Multi-hit, decent range, decent damage, big detonations, can be fired through walls.
Any weapon based kits nearby might offer a different opinion, however.

You can use Phase Disruptor to 'wipe' all the tech primers off of a target, then Slash it for a guaranteed BE. I love the Slayer in mixed teams... and put the onus on myself to choose the right power for the right situation. 

[IamZAE]

Cain mines

[megabeast37215]

IamZAE wrote...

lolololololololCain mines

FTFY

[Evil]

megabeast37215 wrote...

You can use Phase Disruptor to 'wipe' all the tech primers off of a target, then Slash it for a guaranteed BE. I love the Slayer in mixed teams... and put the onus on myself to choose the right power for the right situation. 

Now that's a good idea.
Always used the tursent in that role before, but the slayer can do that job a lot quicker.
Plus casting  PD won't prime a TB and overwrite the BR if you cast it unnecessary.

Modifié par Evil Mastered, 20 août 2013 - 12:15 .

[Evil]

megabeast37215 wrote...

IamZAE wrote...

lolololololololCain mines

FTFY

Good fun, but they detonate themselves.
The real fun is sniggering as a spawn walks into the radius of your recon mine, then flicking the safety on the detonator switch.
"Thats it, come closer...":devil:
*click*
Boooooooooooooom!

Modifié par Evil Mastered, 20 août 2013 - 12:24 .

[oO Stryfe Oo]

megabeast37215 wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Wasn't on your list, but warp should be mentioned. BE damage modifier, decent direct damage, no range limit. Plus that debuff...

I mentioned it at the end of the post... Then dismissed it bc of pitiful raw damage. It only does good raw damage on the Huntress coming out of cloak.

I never did understand why ripping something apart at the molecular level did such pathetic damage.

[Oni Changas]

Nova
Poison Strike
Biotic Charge w/ radius and bonus power

[jakenou]

Raw damage and BE detonation potential are two separate things to me. A Fury can fill the feed with BEs an entire match, even though Throw has one of the lower hitting forces, it's still one of the better combo detonators. Warp ammo + DC + Throw should take down an Atlas in a lot less than 20 BEs (although you're depending on some weapon force and ammo application). Reave + Clusters is pretty insanely powerful ofc for multiple BEs. Smashdept with Singularity, and Huntress DC plus Warp, and Valkyrie AF + Warp - all are up there for the highest BE potential. I think Throw and Warp should count because they both have detonation evos.

Raw Damage? That's all in the numbers. Smash - yes. Clusters - yes. Shockwave - buggy, but if you're lucky and have a decent primer, yes.