1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

I would be terribly disappointed if the Templars, much like Cerberus in ME3, got turned into this wholly unsymphathetic and unapologetically evil beast. In ME2, while their methods and goals where very troublesome, they did go to great lengths to try to justify it (to themselves if noone else).

I don't want to see any side being shown as innocent (or next to innocent). Not the mages. Not the Chantry. Especially not the templars. But much like how the mages should not be a faction consisting solely of blood mages and abominations, the templars should not be blood-crazed murderers and torturers that grins with glee when they hurt mages. Both sides should have some dignity.

The templars ought to be able to defend themselves morally and do a decent job about it. Ideally we could be shown them punishing members of theirs that went much too far and them treating mages who submitted to them fairly reasonably (locked up certainly, but no worse than that). We need to be shown that aside from a whole bunch of bad eggs, the faction as a whole is largely responsible and honourable.

An interesting "solution" to making the entire issue be more grey would be to have the mages hold the superior moral position (which they sort of already do, with a few issues muddling it, and have the templars openly admit that fact.
And then have the templars hold the superior arguing position when it comes to practical matters. They ought to have numbers of magic-related crime, response times, number of culprits caught, the average time it takes to track mages down, number of victims and so forth all written down in records and use that to support their side of the argument. Concerns that make the mage ideals difficult if not impossible to manage in praxis.

[Sir DeLoria]

cjones91 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Marten Stroud wrote...

If mages are indeed inherently chaotic, then isn't it ultimately impossible to control them?

What if attempted control merely begets further chaos?

See,that's why the Circles were bound to fail.If you treat people like monsters then you should'nt be surprised if they act like monsters,the Chantry/Templars were incompetent and created the problem they were trying to solve.

Mages without training or control are extremely dangerous.

Agreed,but you need to treat them like humans/elves instead of monsters otherwise you cause the problem.

Agreed.

[Xilizhra]

I don't want to see any side being shown as innocent (or next to innocent). Not the mages. Not the Chantry. Especially not the templars. But much like how the mages should not be a faction consisting solely of blood mages and abominations, the templars should not be blood-crazed murderers and torturers that grins with glee when they hurt mages. Both sides should have some dignity.

TIM still had dignity. Kai Leng would have if he'd been executed better.

The templars ought to be able to defend themselves morally and do a decent job about it. Ideally we could be shown them punishing members of theirs that went much too far and them treating mages who submitted to them fairly reasonably (locked up certainly, but no worse than that). We need to be shown that aside from a whole bunch of bad eggs, the faction as a whole is largely responsible and honourable.

That's not even true now, why would it be during this war? Their function as currently exercised is inherently dishonorable. This would only apply to those who left the Order and sided with Justinia.

An interesting "solution" to making the entire issue be more grey would be to have the mages hold the superior moral position (which they sort of already do, with a few issues muddling it, and have the templars openly admit that fact.
And then have the templars hold the superior arguing position when it comes to practical matters. They ought to have numbers of magic-related crime, response times, number of culprits caught, the average time it takes to track mages down, number of victims and so forth all written down in records and use that to support their side of the argument. Concerns that make the mage ideals difficult if not impossible to manage in praxis.

Initially, perhaps. There should be a solution to this on the mage side ultimately.

[K_Tabris]

I don't think so.

Cerberus was a group with multiple cells specializing in everything from scientific "research" to assassination and espionage, with terrorist tendencies and a racist/xenophobic platform.

Templars are a private army, now that they have broken away from the Chantry. Their motives are mainly power, status and control over mages (in general). Not much more can be said for the whole group beyond that.

I don't see enough of a comparison to equate them to Cerberus.

[Ausstig]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Until the Mage burns down your house. Or gets posessed and kills the entire village. 

cjones91 wrote...
Sorry,but I really don't care what hateful people think.

It's not hate it's fear.

PEOPLE FEAR THE POWERS THAT MAGES HAVE


That's why they have the circles. FEAR. which leads to people hating them. 

[leaguer of one]

Sir JK wrote...

I would be terribly disappointed if the Templars, much like Cerberus in ME3, got turned into this wholly unsymphathetic and unapologetically evil beast. In ME2, while their methods and goals where very troublesome, they did go to great lengths to try to justify it (to themselves if noone else).

I don't want to see any side being shown as innocent (or next to innocent). Not the mages. Not the Chantry. Especially not the templars. But much like how the mages should not be a faction consisting solely of blood mages and abominations, the templars should not be blood-crazed murderers and torturers that grins with glee when they hurt mages. Both sides should have some dignity.

The templars ought to be able to defend themselves morally and do a decent job about it. Ideally we could be shown them punishing members of theirs that went much too far and them treating mages who submitted to them fairly reasonably (locked up certainly, but no worse than that). We need to be shown that aside from a whole bunch of bad eggs, the faction as a whole is largely responsible and honourable.

An interesting "solution" to making the entire issue be more grey would be to have the mages hold the superior moral position (which they sort of already do, with a few issues muddling it, and have the templars openly admit that fact.
And then have the templars hold the superior arguing position when it comes to practical matters. They ought to have numbers of magic-related crime, response times, number of culprits caught, the average time it takes to track mages down, number of victims and so forth all written down in records and use that to support their side of the argument. Concerns that make the mage ideals difficult if not impossible to manage in praxis.

About Cerberus, why does every after ME2 see Cerberus as the nuetral better evil group. They are a group tht act with out ethics.

They were with out ethic in ME1. They were with out ethic in ME2. They were with out ethic in ME3.  

Even a blind person should see  that the moment you goals change for cerberus they would cut your throat. Even your crew saw it. Yet, people beleived they can be trusted?

You guy are really naive.
 There goal is the advancement and protection of humanity, that never changed. The thing is that they do it through ruth less means.  You saw it in all 3 games yet it a surprise in ME3?

[cjones91]

Ausstig wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Until the Mage burns down your house. Or gets posessed and kills the entire village. 

cjones91 wrote...
Sorry,but I really don't care what hateful people think.

It's not hate it's fear.

PEOPLE FEAR THE POWERS THAT MAGES HAVE


That's why they have the circles. FEAR. which leads to people hating them. 

Fear leads to hate which leads to murder/genocide.Of course now we get the heart of the matter...people envy the power mages have just like how it's human nature to be jealous of someone being smarter,stronger,or being more beautiful than you are.My question is what happens when you can't lock all the mages up?

[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Let's take the time to cover this. This is not a problem at all. Why, that child has the power to control something that is dangerous in ignorant hand. Mage must be taught to use there power properly...Point blank, no excuses. Even the dalish give they children with magic to keepers to teach them proper magic.

The thing is in the human world the only place to do so is in the circle. This is nessary and not wrong. The issue is what happens after they learned there abilities.

[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Until the Mage burns down your house. Or gets posessed and kills the entire village. 

cjones91 wrote...
Sorry,but I really don't care what hateful people think.

It's not hate it's fear.

PEOPLE FEAR THE POWERS THAT MAGES HAVE


That's why they have the circles. FEAR. which leads to people hating them. 

Fear leads to hate which leads to murder/genocide.Of course now we get the heart of the matter...people envy the power mages have just like how it's human nature to be jealous of someone being smarter,stronger,or being more beautiful than you are.My question is what happens when you can't lock all the mages up?

A possible public linching or tervinter imperium.

[cjones91]

leaguer of one wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Let's take the time to cover this. This is not a problem at all. Why, that child has the power to control something that is dangerous in ignorant hand. Mage must be taught to use there power properly...Point blank, no excuses. Even the dalish give they children with magic to keepers to teach them proper magic.

The thing is in the human world the only place to do so is in the circle. This is nessary and not wrong. The issue is what happens after they learned there abilities.

If they have mastered their powers and can control them then mages should be allowed contact outside the circle,it's terrible for both the mother and the child to have armed men snatch the child away never to be seen again.Can anyone who is a parent really be okay with that?

[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Let's take the time to cover this. This is not a problem at all. Why, that child has the power to control something that is dangerous in ignorant hand. Mage must be taught to use there power properly...Point blank, no excuses. Even the dalish give they children with magic to keepers to teach them proper magic.

The thing is in the human world the only place to do so is in the circle. This is nessary and not wrong. The issue is what happens after they learned there abilities.

If they have mastered their powers and can control them then mages should be allowed contact outside the circle,it's terrible for both the mother and the child to have armed men snatch the child away never to be seen again.Can anyone who is a parent really be okay with that?

Which is why I said the issue on hand is what happens after. They do need more freedoms. But there is an issue you are not looking into... The fact that the mage may be control by the state with out the curcle. Image a country that want to invade others and see mages as a weapon. Image on country planning to let loose harvster made by mages on another.....

Modifié par leaguer of one, 21 août 2013 - 06:05 .

[The Hierophant]

it's terrible for both the mother and the child to have armed men snatch the child away never to be seen again. Can anyone who is a parent really be okay with that?

It depends as Jowan's mom despised for being a mage, but i have a theory that she actually hates him for being just like his father, a chronic ****up.

[Ausstig]

cjones91 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Until the Mage burns down your house. Or gets posessed and kills the entire village. 

cjones91 wrote...
Sorry,but I really don't care what hateful people think.

It's not hate it's fear.

PEOPLE FEAR THE POWERS THAT MAGES HAVE


That's why they have the circles. FEAR. which leads to people hating them. 

Fear leads to hate which leads to murder/genocide.Of course now we get the heart of the matter...people envy the power mages have just like how it's human nature to be jealous of someone being smarter,stronger,or being more beautiful than you are.My question is what happens when you can't lock all the mages up?

wut?

Sure, they do. 

It's not like people are afraid of someone who can burn them to death with their mind or take away their free will. It's all just jealous over the mages power. 

It's not like there is an example of a place run by Mages, a place that is only the sceond worse place to live by the fact that they are fighting the wosrt place. oh wait yes there is Tivinter. A place that still legaly has people being sold as property. So tell me do you really think in is just tall popy syndrom or that people may have an actual reason to fear. 

[cjones91]

Ausstig wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I bet there will be many mothers who will revile newborn mage children when they see what the mage rebels are willing to do in the name of freedom.

If Bioware doesn't explore the negatives of a violent revolution - I think it will be a missed opportunity.

If I was a parent and my child was taken away from me because he/she was considered a monster then I would be pissed at the people who did it.No mother would hate their own child no matter how brainwashed they are.

Until the Mage burns down your house. Or gets posessed and kills the entire village. 

cjones91 wrote...
Sorry,but I really don't care what hateful people think.

It's not hate it's fear.

PEOPLE FEAR THE POWERS THAT MAGES HAVE


That's why they have the circles. FEAR. which leads to people hating them. 

Fear leads to hate which leads to murder/genocide.Of course now we get the heart of the matter...people envy the power mages have just like how it's human nature to be jealous of someone being smarter,stronger,or being more beautiful than you are.My question is what happens when you can't lock all the mages up?

wut?

Sure, they do. 

It's not like people are afraid of someone who can burn them to death with their mind or take away their free will. It's all just jealous over the mages power. 

It's not like there is an example of a place run by Mages, a place that is only the sceond worse place to live by the fact that they are fighting the wosrt place. oh wait yes there is Tivinter. A place that still legaly has people being sold as property. So tell me do you really think in is just tall popy syndrom or that people may have an actual reason to fear. 

I bet every single person in Thedas would kill to have the power mages do which is why they are jealous,of course they fear them as well but that goes in hand of wanting that power but can't get it.That's why they try to control mages but don't fool yourself:humans will screw each other over because one person has the power and they don't.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

TIM still had dignity. Kai Leng would have if he'd been executed better.

Oh, Agreed. I don't have a problem with TIM, it's the rest of Cerberus I am disappointed in.

That's not even true now, why would it be during this war? Their function as currently exercised is inherently dishonorable. This would only apply to those who left the Order and sided with Justinia.

*shrug* Maybe Lambert's replacement turns out to be someone that decided to clean house and try to make the templars something respectable or somesuch. Or maybe he isn't, and the order as a whole is a whole lot better than they've been shown to be in DA2.
I just want them to be interesting. Someone I'd enjoy listening to, even if I do not agree.

Initially, perhaps. There should be a solution to this on the mage side ultimately.

I don't know. There's an interesting dictomy to be had when the mages dream big but have no experience or practical solutions wheras the templars have the experience and many pragmatic solutions but stand on unstable moral ground.
An ideals vs pragmatism question, essentially.

I feel that if the mages could solve these problems in the scope of a single game... it'd diminish the conflict massively. In a sense, I'd want a complete mage victory to mean magical lawlessness. The mages might have some ideas to combat this, but they're still largely on the drawing board when the game ends.

leaguer of one wrote...
About Cerberus, why does
every after ME2 see Cerberus as the nuetral better evil group. They are a
group tht act with out ethics.

They were with out ethic in ME1. They were with out ethic in ME2. They were with out ethic in ME3.  

Even
a blind person should see  that the moment you goals change for
cerberus they would cut your throat. Even your crew saw it. Yet, people
beleived they can be trusted?

You guy are really naive.
 There
goal is the advancement and protection of humanity, that never changed.
The thing is that they do it through ruth less means.  You saw it in
all 3 games yet it a surprise in ME3?

To clarify: I was never under any impression that their goals where anything else nor that they would not betray me if I did not do as they please.

The difference is that in ME2, mostly thanks to that we could talk to normal members (Rupert, Kelly, the crew, the engineers, Miranda and Jacob) they got a human face that was interesting. You could relate to them, understand them and even to a degree sympathise with them. I mean Rupert who so lost much to Batarian slavers... is it any wonder he's with Cerberus? And is he wrong to turn to them when noone else did anything?

Whereas in ME1 and 3 they were mostly demonized. They were utterly evil, unsympathetic and impossible to reason with.

[leaguer of one]

Sir JK wrote...



To clarify: I was never under any impression that their goals where anything else nor that they would not betray me if I did not do as they please.

The difference is that in ME2, mostly thanks to that we could talk to normal members (Rupert, Kelly, the crew, the engineers, Miranda and Jacob) they got a human face that was interesting. You could relate to them, understand them and even to a degree sympathise with them. I mean Rupert who so lost much to Batarian slavers... is it any wonder he's with Cerberus? And is he wrong to turn to them when noone else did anything?

Whereas in ME1 and 3 they were mostly demonized. They were utterly evil, unsympathetic and impossible to reason with.

And in ME3 we found that the simpathetic faces was just a ploy. A big miss direction by TIM. I'm not saying that there were never any good people in cerberus. Heck, Kadien pointed that out without even being on the inside of the group. he problem lays with the the head of the group. Those good people were just pawns to him even back in ME2. AND He only planned to keep the most ruthless.
 If you though cerberus was going to remain  a moral nutral that you look at the wrong part of it.  Understand TIM to see what cerberus is about not those good people.

[Xilizhra]

*shrug* Maybe Lambert's replacement turns out to be someone that decided to clean house and try to make the templars something respectable or somesuch. Or maybe he isn't, and the order as a whole is a whole lot better than they've been shown to be in DA2.
I just want them to be interesting. Someone I'd enjoy listening to, even if I do not agree.

I personally would prefer to keep the DA2 version going, with the ones who dislike genocide having been purged or having already fled.

I don't know. There's an interesting dictomy to be had when the mages dream big but have no experience or practical solutions wheras the templars have the experience and many pragmatic solutions but stand on unstable moral ground.
An ideals vs pragmatism question, essentially.

I feel that if the mages could solve these problems in the scope of a single game... it'd diminish the conflict massively. In a sense, I'd want a complete mage victory to mean magical lawlessness. The mages might have some ideas to combat this, but they're still largely on the drawing board when the game ends.

Quite frankly, this conflict needs to be diminished, and I think it's best solved in this game. We still need to deal with the qunari, and then probably one more thing that's wholly cosmic. The templars are villains that can afford to fall now.

[Ausstig]

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[/quote]I bet every single person in Thedas would kill to have the power mages do which is why they are jealous,of course they fear them as well but that goes in hand of wanting that power but can't get it.That's why they try to control mages but don't fool yourself:humans will screw each other over because one person has the power and they don't.
[/quote]

Also elves. 

This statement could also justify keeping mages imprisioned, as the have power others do not. 

Modifié par Ausstig, 21 août 2013 - 06:37 .

[Sir JK]

leaguer of one wrote...

And in ME3 we found that the simpathetic faces was just a ploy. A big miss direction by TIM. I'm not saying that there were never any good people in cerberus. Heck, Kadien pointed that out without even being on the inside of the group. he problem lays with the the head of the group. Those good people were just pawns to him even back in ME2. AND He only planned to keep the most ruthless.
 If you though cerberus was going to remain  a moral nutral that you look at the wrong part of it.  Understand TIM to see what cerberus is about not those good people.

Which is what I find disappointing. The idea of Cerberus being humanity's ugly side was an interesting one. Demonizing them turned them less interesting. I'd have been perfectly fine with them being villains, I just thought the demonization was unneccessary.

Xilizhra wrote...

I
personally would prefer to keep the DA2 version going, with the ones
who dislike genocide having been purged or having already fled.

Which I'd find terribly disappointing and uninteresting. One of the best parts of DA is it's moral ambiguity and even if the templars fall slightly more on the blacker side of the grey scale, they're at least on it. This would make it more black and white and put them neatly in the black. Which would lessen my interest for the entire setting.

Out of curiosity though Xil... Would you prefer if the templars were turned outright villains and any possibility to side with them is removed?

Quite frankly, this
conflict needs to be diminished, and I think it's best solved in this
game. We still need to deal with the qunari, and then probably one more
thing that's wholly cosmic. The templars are villains that can afford to
fall now.

You do realise that diminishing a conflict means to make it pointless, right? It'd essentially means mages have suffered 900 years for no real reason at all. Solving and diminishing an issue is to completely different things.

[leaguer of one]

[quote]Sir JK wrote...


Which is what I find disappointing. The idea of Cerberus being humanity's ugly side was an interesting one. Demonizing them turned them less interesting. I'd have been perfectly fine with them being villains, I just thought the demonization was unneccessary.

[quote]
It is not demonizing them if this is the 3 game they were doing things like that. Cerberus point for the writers is  to show the definition of extremism and how far it can go wrong.
Note that everything that Cerberus does in ME3 is not new. They been doing that since ME1 and well into me2.
If you are disappointed that they when that direction then I suggest really readin into TIM's character.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 21 août 2013 - 07:03 .

[Ausstig]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xil already sees them as outright villains.

Xil also wants to kill everyone who is not suppourting the mages. And seems to forget any facts that don't suppour Xil's views.

Xil is a radical so I would take what Xil says with a large amount of salt.   

[KainD]

Steelcan wrote...

I want another Imperium for the lulz.

Anybody else?.... Anybody?

Not for the lolz. I want it leggit.