1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm referring to moderation/extremity.

This completely invalidates your statement. It wasn't Tevinter agents that turned into a Harvester in Kirkwall or killed their elven wife so her blood could bring freedom to the people, or stitched together half a dozen women and used necromancy to "bring them to life." (I suspect Quentin actually merely prolonged Leandra's life through the head's transition--I have a personal vivisection theory along those lines).

Those were regular mages. Hence a "kill all mages" viewpoint is every bit as justified as a "kill all Templars" viewpoint.

Firstly, no, because none of them were doing so for the Circle and that sort of thing doesn't happen systematically within the organization. Secondly, I'm filing that under "criminals and such" who happen to be mages; kill as many as you like.

[sandalisthemaker]

AresKeith wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I tend not to be an extremist when it comes to the mage/templar issue. Personally, I am on the fence of whether or not the circle system is a valid one.

But I feel that if you want to play as an extremist, you should have the option to be an extremist on both sides, not just one. It may make things tricky for the next installment, true.

Personally I feel the Circle was a good idea for Mages to learn how to use their magic and other skills, but it too strict 

And not all Templars are cruel to the Mages, so a reformed Circle wouldn't be a bad idea

The Kirkwall circle was pretty terrible and any circle similar to that one was in desperate need of a change, but the DAO circle didn't seem so bad.  Sure, the mages could never leave the tower, but their lives within didn't seem so terrible so long as they passed the harrowing and didn't practice blood magic.  They had free food, beds, and they could spend the entire day reading books if they wanted.  I'd love to be able to do nothing but read all day.   
I may be viewing the DAO circle through a romantic lens, but  I don't recall hearing about any rape/torture incidents like what occurred in the Kirkwall circle.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 22 août 2013 - 03:48 .

[Palidane]

EntropicAngel wrote...
And, I think I'm going to file Templars slaughtering/raping mages under "criminals who happen to be Templars--kill as many as you like." Fair enough?

I agree. If you're going to judge all the Templars as one, then you have to judge all the mages as one. The good and the bad, the Spirit Healers and the Maleficar.

Modifié par Palidane, 22 août 2013 - 04:02 .

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Firstly, no, because none of them were doing so for the Circle and that sort of thing doesn't happen systematically within the organization. Secondly, I'm filing that under "criminals and such" who happen to be mages; kill as many as you like.

Of course they weren't doing it within the Circle. That's not a valid argument because these mages are not Circle mages you're talking about--they're free mages (to argue that fine point, the moment Orsino refused to submit to Meredith was when he became a free mage). That's what the war is about--free mages versus Templars. Not Circle mages versus Templars.

And, I think I'm going to file Templars slaughtering/raping mages under "criminals who happen to be Templars--kill as many as you like." Fair enough?

The rebellion is still the organization of Circles that left; you'll notice that all the ones you mentioned, too, were complete solo acts.

The other one's fine, but you'll have a hell of a lot of them.

I agree. If you're going to judge all the Templars as one, then you have
to judge all the mages as one. The good and the bad, the Spirit Healers
and the Maleficar.

Oh, not all of them. Those templars who leave the Order are fine. Evangeline and possibly Cullen are all right.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 août 2013 - 04:05 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, not all of them. Those templars who leave the Order are fine. Evangeline and possibly Cullen are all right.

The bias continues

[Shadow Fox]

KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

If that were true then the treatment of mages is justified. It's not a crime if the dominate do it.
Does that mean rape is legal for the dominate?

Of course the treatment of mages is justified. I just like mages more so.. in my playthrough I want mages to dominate instead. 

Yes rape is legal for the dominate. Masters have sex with unwanting slaves all the time. 

PS: I like how rape always finds it's way into most threads.

<_<

Real easy to say stupid things behind a keyboard isn't it?


Gotta love how the mage cause attracts the crazies.<_<

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The rebellion is still the organization of Circles that left; you'll notice that all the ones you mentioned, too, were complete solo acts.

The other one's fine, but you'll have a hell of a lot of them.

I don't understand what you mean here. The rebellion is comprised of free mages. Free mages did extreme things. Hence, free mages can be considered on the same level as the Templars (who are not inherently extreme, but occasionally, individually, do extreme things).

Incorrect. The Templar Order itself is an extremity, and many, many of its members are involved (for instance, everyone who participates in an Annulment, Rite of Tranquility or Harrowing).

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The rebellion is still the organization of Circles that left; you'll notice that all the ones you mentioned, too, were complete solo acts.

The other one's fine, but you'll have a hell of a lot of them.

I don't understand what you mean here. The rebellion is comprised of free mages. Free mages did extreme things. Hence, free mages can be considered on the same level as the Templars (who are not inherently extreme, but occasionally, individually, do extreme things).

Incorrect. The Templar Order itself is an extremity, and many, many of its members are involved (for instance, everyone who participates in an Annulment, Rite of Tranquility or Harrowing).

Once again your ultimately generalizing and branding an entire group

The Rite of Annulment is an extremity, but the Rite of Tranquility and Harrowing is not to an extent

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
And, I think I'm going to file Templars slaughtering/raping mages under "criminals who happen to be Templars--kill as many as you like." Fair enough?

I agree. If you're going to judge all the Templars as one, then you have to judge all the mages as one. The good and the bad, the Spirit Healers and the Maleficar.

Lulz. Do you not see the difference between willingly joining an organization and being born into a group?

"If you're going to judge the National Rifle Association as one, then you have to judge all black people as one."

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 août 2013 - 04:23 .

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...

But he should have the option to kill all the templars?

Yes. I'd also let him kill all of the Tevinter agents.

And how this view is different from templar's "Final solution"?

Modifié par Star fury, 22 août 2013 - 04:46 .

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Incorrect. The Templar Order itself is an extremity, and many, many of its members are involved (for instance, everyone who participates in an Annulment, Rite of Tranquility or Harrowing).

No it is not. We've been over this.

"Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears these magic users for very good reasons."

from the wiki. None of that is extreme in and of itself. How that is interpreted for each Templar may result in extremity, but that's an individual concern, not an organization concern.

Do you believe the creed of "protecting the world from magic" is an extremity?

Yes, I do. Magic is not separate from the world, it's part of it, and otherizing it to that extent is wrong. "Protecting everyone from demons and hazardous magical phenomena" would be better.

[Plaintiff]

AresKeith wrote...
Once again your ultimately generalizing and branding an entire group

The Templars are an organization, not a genetic minority.

If you're in the NRA, it's fair to assume you like and use guns, and oppose gun control, because those are the tenets of the NRA.

Same goes for the Templars. If you're in the Templars, it's fair to assume you support their move to go to war with the mages and subjugate them, because those are the tenets of the Templar Order.

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
And, I think I'm going to file Templars slaughtering/raping mages under "criminals who happen to be Templars--kill as many as you like." Fair enough?

I agree. If you're going to judge all the Templars as one, then you have to judge all the mages as one. The good and the bad, the Spirit Healers and the Maleficar.

Lulz. Do you not see the difference between willingly joining an organization and being born into a group?

"If you're going to judge the National Rifle Association as one, then you have to judge all black people as one."

And not all people who join the Templars acts cruel to mages or want them all tranquil or dead

[Palidane]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
And, I think I'm going to file Templars slaughtering/raping mages under "criminals who happen to be Templars--kill as many as you like." Fair enough?

I agree. If you're going to judge all the Templars as one, then you have to judge all the mages as one. The good and the bad, the Spirit Healers and the Maleficar.

Lulz. Do you not see the difference between willingly joining an organization and being born into a group?

"If you're going to judge the Republican party as one, then you have to judge all black people as one."

Okay, fair enough. Sorry, that was incredibly stupid, my mistake.

But anyway, I agree with Xilizhra when it comes to Templars. Before the schism, you could argue that they had their dogmatic side and their heroic side and just needed reform. But after Asunder, the Templars have decided that policing mages is more important than listening to the Divine. In that moment, they stopped being "The Swords of the Chantry" and started being "mage-killers". If you made that choice, I have no issues with killing you.

Modifié par Palidane, 22 août 2013 - 04:27 .

[Plaintiff]

AresKeith wrote...
And not all people who join the Templars acts cruel to mages or want them all tranquil or dead.

Of course they act cruel to the mages. It's a requirement of being a Templar. The things their job requires them to do are cruel. They simply are, and there's no way around it.

Taking children from their families is cruel, subjecting people to Tranquility is cruel. The Harrowing is cruel. It's all cruel.

If they didn't want to treat mages with cruelty, they shouldn't have become Templars. Because treating mages with cruelty is the core of the job description, just like being a fireman requires you to fight fires.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
And, I think I'm going to file Templars slaughtering/raping mages under "criminals who happen to be Templars--kill as many as you like." Fair enough?

I agree. If you're going to judge all the Templars as one, then you have to judge all the mages as one. The good and the bad, the Spirit Healers and the Maleficar.

Lulz. Do you not see the difference between willingly joining an organization and being born into a group?

"If you're going to judge the National Rifle Association as one, then you have to judge all black people as one."

Maleficar willingly practice forbidden magic.<_

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Excuse me, what?

You actually going to try to prove that going to war with mages and subjugating them are tenets of the Templar Order?

How about the fact that the Templars are at war with them right now, with the goal of (at the very least) bringing them back under Templar control (aka, subjugation)?

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
And not all people who join the Templars acts cruel to mages or want them all tranquil or dead.

Of course they act cruel to the mages. It's a requirement of being a Templar. The things their job requires them to do are cruel. They simply are, and there's no way around it.

Taking children from their families is cruel, subjecting people to Tranquility is cruel. The Harrowing is cruel. It's all cruel.

If they didn't want to treat mages with cruelty, they shouldn't have become Templars. Because treating mages with cruelty is the core of the job description, just like being a fireman requires you to fight fires.

Yeah the Templar who saved Wynne after her own family locked her in a burning barn and let her ride on his shoulders was so cruel...<_<

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough. I was under the impression that you merely thought the individual interpretation led to extremity, not the ideal itself.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The ideal was made quite poorly and in a rather reactionary manner.

Yeah the Templar who saved Wynne after her own family locked her in a
burning barn and let her ride on his shoulders was so cruel...

The fun part is that you don't have to be monstrous to willingly serve evil.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 août 2013 - 04:35 .