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[Shadow Fox]

TTTX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Our cars also don't work on nuclear energy where a small bump into the sidewalk could lead to a city being replaced by a wasteland. Yet anyway.
After a quick google search, the highest body count I could find for a car-related accident was 42. Meredith's sister, a child, killed 73. Connor, an entire village. And those are just accidents, we're not even taking into account the simple temptation of using magic for your benefit at the expense of others which is not a factor with cars.

Well with Meredith sister and Connor it wasn really their fault that they got possed, because it were their parents who refuesed to send them to the circle and get proper training against demons, which lead to the death and destrotion they caused.

Both Meredith and Isolde doesn't or can't seem to see that. 

Except that's why Meredith became a Templar and such a hardass.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 22 août 2013 - 07:12 .

[The Elder King]

Star fury wrote...

Exactly! At least one experienced mage must accompany an apprentice or a group of them into the Fade.  

I think it'd be better to go with one apprentice at time (I'm not sure what Malcolm did, but considering that Hawke is 4-5 years older than Bethany, I'd guess he made two different "Harrowings").
I doubt that DAI we can express this in DAI (expecially because the mage-templar war isn't going to the main plot, and it could even be that it's not concluded in DAI), but it's worth to talk about it.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

TTTX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Our cars also don't work on nuclear energy where a small bump into the sidewalk could lead to a city being replaced by a wasteland. Yet anyway.
After a quick google search, the highest body count I could find for a car-related accident was 42. Meredith's sister, a child, killed 73. Connor, an entire village. And those are just accidents, we're not even taking into account the simple temptation of using magic for your benefit at the expense of others which is not a factor with cars.

Well with Meredith sister and Connor it wasn really their fault that they got possed, because it were their parents who refuesed to send them to the circle and get proper training against demons, which lead to the death and destrotion they caused.

Both Meredith and Isolde doesn't or can't seem to see that. 

So it's not their fault they lost control and went on a murdering rampage? Oh that makes everything better than doesn't it? A nice apology to bring back all the orphaned childrens families and the grieving parents dead children to life huh?

Yeah, just because they didn't mean to do it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, and that they shouldn't be blamed. Just like when a person arming a long range bomb misses the target and hits citizens, he shouldn't be off the hook for his blunder. "Just an accident" doesn't change the facts of what happened.

You do understand that the person taken over by the demon has no will to apose it from happening. That like someone randomly gaining the power to persperate musturd gas.

[TTTX]

leaguer of one wrote...
Which is way the foundation of the circle and harrowing is not a bad idea. The problem is what happens after the mages prove they can handle their magic.

Not only that, also that Mages aren't allowed to keep their kids or get married or have a right to privatsy (as seen in DA:O even mages who have passed their harrowing share the same room and there isn't a door to where you sleep)

There is also the problem when a Templar like Meredith gets way to much power as she did in DA2, that's not a good thing.

[Shadow Fox]

Star fury wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
leaguer is talking about the fact that there are books about demons that explain what they could do, so the apprentices could read them in advance.
Though I'd guess that pitting a lone apprentice against a pride demons could be exaggerated. I read that Malcolm Hawke went with Bethany and Hawke during their "Harrowing". It's true that there are only two mages, but I'd say if the Harrowing has to remain, it'd be worth trying this method.
On a unrelated topic, I want one of the mages in my team to be like Malcolm Hawke.

Exactly! At least one experienced mage must accompany an apprentice or a group of them into the Fade.  

Except as Irving himself points out the Harrowing is to see if you can resist temptation on your own.

[TTTX]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So it's not their fault they lost control and went on a murdering rampage? Oh that makes everything better than doesn't it? A nice apology to bring back all the orphaned childrens families and the grieving parents dead children to life huh?

Yeah, just because they didn't mean to do it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, and that they shouldn't be blamed. Just like when a person arming a long range bomb misses the target and hits citizens, he shouldn't be off the hook for his blunder. "Just an accident" doesn't change the facts of what happened.

I'm just saying it's not soly their fault, they were kids (I assume Meredith's sister was a kid when it happened) they didn't know anything concret about magic or they should go to the circle of Magic.


Kids don't go to school the first time by themselves because they don't know they have to learn how to spell or other stuff, it's a parent and teachers job to make sure they learn all the nessecary stuff in order to work in socity.

[The Elder King]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except as Irving himself points out the Harrowing is to see if you can resist temptation on your own.

It works so well that there are enough mages who passed the Harrowing that fell to demons later.
I'm not saying that Malcolm's method is necessarily better, or it'll work better for the mages (we don't even know how exactly Bethany and Hawke's Harrowing worked), but I don't see any reason to dismiss it.
If I recall well, I read about this (and the proposition of making it the standar Circle Harrowing) from MisterJB, which is definitely not a pro-mage. It would fit perfectly with the stance Justinia seems to have.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 août 2013 - 07:28 .

[TTTX]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except that's why Meredith became a Templar and such a hardass.

True, but she didn't became the leader of the Templars in Kirkwall until the Chantry used the Templars to intervined in a political matter between Orlais and Kirkwall.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
We teach people to drive before we test them. We don't just stick them behind the wheel and say "Good luck! Try not to crash!"

Could we please analyze this from a logical perspective? Just think about it for a little.

First and foremost, "unprepared" is NOT the same as "untrained". The mages are roused from their beds in a random night and sent into the Fade; this is being unprepared and the reason this is done it's because if a mage is capable of facing a demon when they're at worst, that raises the chances of them being able to repeat the feat should there be a need for it. It's like if you were given a surprise test; if you still pass despite not knowing it was coming, chances are you know the subject by heart. Makes sense, right?

But that doesn't mean mages didn't spend years learning spells and studying demonic lore. Here we can see apprentices being taught by Senior Enchanters.




And we can see here that there two whole sections of the library dedicated to mage training and the Fade. One book is even named "How to resist demonic possessions".



So, obviously, the mages are trained for their Harrowing. (The images are a bit small but if you quote this post, you should be able to read them)


What reason could there possibly be for mages to be sent without training? I daresay that, if the Chantry truly wished to kill mages, they could do so very easily. Just don't send them to the tower, kill them when young, easy enough, right?
The reason mages are spared is because magic is a valuable natural resource. Basically, mages are too useful to just be rid of.
Also, remember that lyrium is bloody expensive. The Order already Tranquilises those deemed too weak to even attempt the Harrowing so, what would be the point of spending lyrium to send someone into the Fade just to die when there are much less expensive manners of accomplishing this?
If people bother to look to this issue with any sort of scrutiny beyond "Templars are bad", it's obvious mages receive extensive training before they are even deemed worthy of the lyrium that will be spent in the Harrowing.
If you're not willing to believe in the goodness of the Chantry and Templars, at least believe they're not willing to spend sovereigns just to kill mages nor are they willing to destroy natural resources any more than we would burn down newly discovered oil.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 août 2013 - 08:29 .

[Shadow Fox]

hhh89 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except as Irving himself points out the Harrowing is to see if you can resist temptation on your own.

It works so well that there are enough mages who passed the Harrowing that fell to demons later.
I'm not saying that Malcolm's method is necessarily better, or it'll work better for the mages (we don't even know how exactly Bethany and Hawke's Harrowing worked), but I don't see any reason to dismiss it.
If I recall well, I read about this (and the proposition of making it the standar Circle Harrowing) from MisterJB, which is definitely not a pro-mage. It would fit perfectly with the stance Justinia seems to have.

I didn't say  it was fool-proof or even right just that they have a valid reason to do it that way.

(I'm neutral meaining I'll support the reasonable Templars and mages I meet:wizard:)

[TTTX]

MisterJB wrote...
If people bother to look to this issue with any sort of scrutiny beyond "Templars are bad", it's obvious mages receive extensive training before they are even deemed worthy of the lyrium that will be spent in the Harrowing.
If you're not willing to believe in the goodness of the Chantry and Templars, at least believe they're not willing to spend sovereigns just to kill mages nor are they willing to destroy natural resources any more than we would burn down newly discovered oil.

I'm a promage and I have no problem with the Harrowing, I see it as a nessercary test in order to root out who can resist demons.

My problems with the circle is rather that mages aren't allowed to keep their kids, get married (We haven't seen a married mage in the circle, well anyone who was married when they were in the circle) or be allowed to live outside the circle expecpt for a few cases and their also the problem when a Templar (example Meredith) has to much power and none does anything about it.

The circle system needs to be at the very least improved abon, because it can't just go back to old one and assume everything will be fine.

[Shadow Fox]

The problem lies in finding a realistic workable alternative.

[The Elder King]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I didn't say  it was fool-proof or even right just that they have a valid reason to do it that way.

(I'm neutral meaining I'll support the reasonable Templars and mages I meet:wizard:)

I'm neutral too, meanign that my canon character would try to find a solution that compromises between the rights of the mages and the safety of non-mages.
Considering that my favourite solution isn't going to happen (if you interested you can here: http://social.biowar.../index/14666109), and if we ever that the freedom of choosing how to deal with the mage-templar war, I'd like that both the mage and the Chantry/templar aftermath will have rooms to satisfy moderate/neutral characters. A Malcolm-style Harrowing is something I really want for the Chantry-favoured aftermath.

[Shadow Fox]

Honestly I'd teach the guards Templar abilities then slowly integrate mages into society highly regulating certain types of magic.

Of course this is very idealistic and most likely full of problems.

[Plaintiff]

duckley wrote...

Can anyone explain the notion that all Templars are abusive?

The Harrowing is abuse.

Tranquility is abuse.

Taking children away from their families is abuse.

All Templars can be called on at any time to perform these tasks.

[TTTX]

Plaintiff wrote...
The Harrowing is abuse.

Tranquility is abuse.

Taking children away from their families is abuse.

All Templars can be called on at any time to perform these tasks.

Well to be fair, not every family is happy about having a mage child, sometimes they even try to kill it.

the Harrowing is nesscary how else is they going to test a mage can resist a demon.

Tranquility is sometimes a choice for mages who doesn't want to go through the Harrowing or alternative for a captured blood mage to become useful.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

duckley wrote...

Can anyone explain the notion that all Templars are abusive?

The Harrowing is abuse.

Tranquility is abuse.

Taking children away from their families is abuse.

All Templars can be called on at any time to perform these tasks.

So is slavery yet I don't see you arguing all mages are abusive.
Blood magic:bandit:
Except for mages like Wynne then it's a rescue from abuse.:innocent:

And a mage can blow up a city at anytime;)

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 22 août 2013 - 08:58 .

[Ausstig]

TTTX wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except that's why Meredith became a Templar and such a hardass.

True, but she didn't became the leader of the Templars in Kirkwall until the Chantry used the Templars to intervined in a political matter between Orlais and Kirkwall.

Actually, She only took over AFTER the Viscount attacked the Templars and kill the Knight Commander. Meredith then lead a counter attack that deposed the Viscount. In a way she had her own 'hero story'. 

The more you know:)

[Shadow Fox]

Ausstig wrote...

TTTX wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except that's why Meredith became a Templar and such a hardass.

True, but she didn't became the leader of the Templars in Kirkwall until the Chantry used the Templars to intervined in a political matter between Orlais and Kirkwall.

Actually, She only took over AFTER the Viscount attacked the Templars and kill the Knight Commander. Meredith then lead a counter attack that deposed the Viscount. In a way she had her own 'hero story'. 

The more you know:)

TBF others say she just wanted power over the city.

It's like Ulfric Stormcloak.

[TTTX]

Ausstig wrote...

Actually, She only took over AFTER the Viscount attacked the Templars and kill the Knight Commander. Meredith then lead a counter attack that deposed the Viscount. In a way she had her own 'hero story'. 

The more you know:)

He only attacked them because they were trying to force him to stop demand unreasonble taxes (I wonder how unreasonble they were since Orlais cried to the Chantry for help) on Orlaising ships.

[Parmida]

In my opinion those Templars and Mages that kill and abuse innocents or are crazy and mad (like Orsino & Meredith) must be put down HARD. There's always bad weeds in any society, religion, faction..etc that need burning.

I'm gonna play a crazy Blood Mage at first that burns and kills anything that moves. (not my canon)

And then I'll play my troll/sarcastic goody two shoes Blood Mage that likes to help everyone and doesn't sacrifice people for his blood magic. I want a ponies and rainbows ending for this.( my canon :3 )

[Ausstig]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

TTTX wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except that's why Meredith became a Templar and such a hardass.

True, but she didn't became the leader of the Templars in Kirkwall until the Chantry used the Templars to intervined in a political matter between Orlais and Kirkwall.

Actually, She only took over AFTER the Viscount attacked the Templars and kill the Knight Commander. Meredith then lead a counter attack that deposed the Viscount. In a way she had her own 'hero story'. 

The more you know:)

TBF others say she just wanted power over the city.

It's like Ulfric Stormcloak.

Maybe, I would have liked if they played up the 'fallen hero' a bit more. It would have  added some depth, although you did get a bit of that if you side with her. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

duckley wrote...

Can anyone explain the notion that all Templars are abusive?

The Harrowing is abuse.

Tranquility is abuse.

Taking children away from their families is abuse.

All Templars can be called on at any time to perform these tasks.

So is slavery yet I don't see you arguing all mages are abusive.
Blood magic:bandit:
Except for mages like Wynne then it's a rescue from abuse.:innocent:

And a mage can blow up a city at anytime;)

First mages are not organization like templars we don't scream that humans are guilty for templars actions is tevinter guilty yes humans or mages guilty no.

Blood magic isn't evil just chantry propaganda because they can't control it that same for shapeshifter blood magic is tool if it is evil sword and other magic which can hurt is evil too.

Where mage can blow up city you mean anders he must know formula for this even hawke or merril doesn't know about it and we don't know if magic was used or just magical components to create bomb most mages at best we see can use flamethrower from hands.

Templars in itself are kicking dog organization they even don't care about morals good mage or bad mage most of them doesn't care if someone order them kill they kill.

[Star fury]

Ausstig wrote...

Maybe, I would have liked if they played up the 'fallen hero' a bit more. It would have  added some depth, although you did get a bit of that if you side with her. 

Meredith was ruined by idol introduction. 

[Ausstig]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

duckley wrote...

Can anyone explain the notion that all Templars are abusive?

The Harrowing is abuse.

Tranquility is abuse.

Taking children away from their families is abuse.

All Templars can be called on at any time to perform these tasks.

So is slavery yet I don't see you arguing all mages are abusive.
Blood magic:bandit:
Except for mages like Wynne then it's a rescue from abuse.:innocent:

And a mage can blow up a city at anytime;)

Blood magic isn't evil just chantry propaganda because they can't control it that same for shapeshifter blood magic is tool if it is evil sword and other magic which can hurt is evil too.

Please explain how mind control is not evil?