1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Sister Goldring]

The impression I got from the article particularly from D.Gaider's comments at the end was that the devs value the morally ambiguous nature of the conflict. So rather than getting the sense that they will now turn one side into the big bad, I felt they were going to try to humanise the conflict and present less extreme examples of behaviour. I found this encouraging because I've enjoyed being able to sympathise with the participants motivations on both sides,.

[Ausstig]

I saw this coming after Asunder. Any interest Biowear may once had an interest in showing bot sides even handedly, but any attempt to that was well and truely abandoned in Asunder; which reads as MAGEZ RULE, TEMPLARZ DRULE.

The article also ignores the reason the Templars broke away. It wasn't cause the CHantry wanted peace, it was because the Divine (the head of the Chantry) was actively plotting with the Mages and had her agents aid them, even to the point of killing Templars. So this is like in the cowboy cop movie where the head of the police is working with the Mob so the cop turns in his badge and goes out on his own. But the Templars are the bad guys for trying to do their jobs?

Won't waste my money on this game for the look of things. May buy it second hand if the story looks ok.

Edit: MJB, don't fool your self, they are using the same bias in describing the Templars as they did with Cerberus in the lead up to ME3

Modifié par Ausstig, 20 août 2013 - 12:25 .

[sandalisthemaker]

We have to remember that the lore of mages being responsible for the Blights may be true, but it could also just be Chantry propaganda.

Yes, I am aware of Corypheus, but still we can't be absolutely sure.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 20 août 2013 - 12:36 .

[Plaintiff]

Ausstig wrote...

I saw this coming after Asunder. Any interest Biowear may once had an interest in showing bot sides even handedly, but any attempt to that was well and truely abandoned in Asunder; which reads as MAGEZ RULE, TEMPLARZ DRULE.

The article also ignores the reason the Templars broke away. It wasn't cause the CHantry wanted peace, it was because the Divine (the head of the Chantry) was actively plotting with the Mages and had her agents aid them, even to the point of killing Templars. So this is like in the cowboy cop movie where the head of the police is working with the Mob so the cop turns in his badge and goes out on his own. But the Templars are the bad guys for trying to do their jobs?

Won't waste my money on this game for the look of things. May buy it second hand if the story looks ok.

The Templar's "job" is to do what the Chantry says.

The Chantry was trying to maintain the status quo. By giving the mages minor freedoms, Divine Justinia hoped to prevent all-out war and keep the mages under Chantry control. The Seekers and the Templars disrupted that, and it's their fault that the conflict has exploded.

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
Corypheus was one of the magisters who entered the fade at the call of Dumat. He is now a darkspawn, stated to be one of the oldest. And you're trying to tell me that magisters didn't enter the fade and turn into the first darkspawn?

Corypheus is deranged and thus unreliable. Besides that, you inferred a lot of specifics "such as the slaughtering of thousands of slaves" from his extremely vague testimony.

The person I quoted was listing how individual Templars actions make the Templars look bad, so I listed what individual mages have done. It just happens to be far, far worse.

a) It's not proven.

Those mages are long since dead.

People infiected by the taint turn into ghouls, not Darkspawn. We know that Corypheus was a magister, and we also know that he is the only person we've seen so far to be a human turned into a darksapwn. It doesn't take a great leap of logic to deduce that his magic turned him into a Darkspawn, and his age and mention of Dumat implies that his turning into a Darkspawn comes from before the first blight. All possible solutions point to magic being involved in the creation of a Darkspawn. 

Even Anders is so shocked after learning Corypheus's origins that he says he will seriously consider what the Chantry says about the dangers of magic. 

If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested. It does not matter if they don't fire it. To quote a coversation from Bethany and Aveline in Dragon Age 2 (paraphrased):

Aveline: "You show remarkable restraint"

Bethany: "You have a sword, why aren't you killing people?"

Aveline: "Fair point. But I can put my sword down"

I like comparing the mage situation to possesion of dangerous weapons laws. Mages wouldn't be allowed inside public buildings or on flights, among other things. 

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2013 - 12:36 .

[In Exile]

I think it's silly to try and point blame to any one thing. Even if Justinia's plan worked, we're talking about an institution built on centuries of imprisonment. As long as the Chantry wanted to keep the right to unilaterally execute every single mage in a Circle because demons blood magic, the system would have collapsed anyway. 

The mages are going to push for freedom, and whether or not that ends badly for the mundates, I can see how one could really blame the mages for wanting to stop being human chattel. 

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...
If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested.

LOL, no I wouldn't. In many places it's legal to carry a gun on your person.

I like comparing the mage situation to possesion of dangerous weapons laws.

Because making terrible analogies is fun? Taking a person's gun away is not a violation of their body or their mind.

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested.

LOL, no I wouldn't. In many places it's legal to carry a gun on your person.

I like comparing the mage situation to possesion of dangerous weapons laws.

Because making terrible analogies is fun? Taking a person's gun away is not a violation of their body or their mind.

Where I live it's not even legal to own a gun, let alone walk around with one. Not every country is America. 

I still believe that mages came off far worse after dragon Age 2. What did the templars do? That one tried to make them all tranquil. That's awful. Meredith wanted to try to kill all of them, which is also terrible.

As for the mages, Anders blew up the chantry, a civilian building, killing everyone inside, which is maybe not as bad as the last two but still pretty bad. Orsino created a bloody harvester that, had it managed to defeat Hawke could have gone on destroy the entire city, maybe even more. Not to mention all the demons they summoned during the final battle inside the city itself. That seems far worse. 

It always seems that Templars don't like mages so they imprison/kill mages. Mages don't like Templars so they kill civilians and put entire cities at risk.

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2013 - 12:56 .

[AresKeith]

Sooo more bad writing?

[MisterJB]

Sister Goldring wrote...

The impression I got from the article particularly from D.Gaider's comments at the end was that the devs value the morally ambiguous nature of the conflict. So rather than getting the sense that they will now turn one side into the big bad, I felt they were going to try to humanise the conflict and present less extreme examples of behaviour. I found this encouraging because I've enjoyed being able to sympathise with the participants motivations on both sides,.

That was my impression as well, let's hope we're right.

[Steelcan]

No one, not even Templars deserve ME3 Cerberus treatment.

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...
Where I live it's not even legal to own a gun, let alone walk around with one. Not every country is America.

I don't live in America either, but I'm still aware that laws are subjective and variable.

I still believe that mages came off far worse after dragon Age 2. What did the templars do? That one tried to make them all tranquil. That's awful. Mertedith wanted to try to kill all of them, which is also terrible. Anders on the other blew up the chantry, a civiliian building, killing everyone inside, which is maybe not as bad as the last two but still pretty bad.

LOL, the Chantry is not a civilian building. It's a political organization that is directly responsible for the founding of the Circle system, and commands the Templar army.

Orsino created a bloody harvester that, had it managed to defeat Hawke could have gone on destroy the entire city, maybe even more. Not to mention all the demons they summoned.

I don't criticise people for the actions they take when their very lives are being directly threatened.

It always seems that Templars don't like mages so they imprison/kill mages. Mage don't like Templars so they kill civilians and put entire cities at risk.

Let's ignore all the civilians that were harmed by Templars in DA2.

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

I saw this coming after Asunder. Any interest Biowear may once had an interest in showing bot sides even handedly, but any attempt to that was well and truely abandoned in Asunder; which reads as MAGEZ RULE, TEMPLARZ DRULE.

The article also ignores the reason the Templars broke away. It wasn't cause the CHantry wanted peace, it was because the Divine (the head of the Chantry) was actively plotting with the Mages and had her agents aid them, even to the point of killing Templars. So this is like in the cowboy cop movie where the head of the police is working with the Mob so the cop turns in his badge and goes out on his own. But the Templars are the bad guys for trying to do their jobs?

Won't waste my money on this game for the look of things. May buy it second hand if the story looks ok.

The Templar's "job" is to do what the Chantry says.

The Chantry was trying to maintain the status quo. By giving the mages minor freedoms, Divine Justinia hoped to prevent all-out war and keep the mages under Chantry control. The Seekers and the Templars disrupted that, and it's their fault that the conflict has exploded.

The fault lays on both hands. Even after the kerkwall uprising. Remeber, it all started because Maridith suspected blood mages were in the  Kerk wall circle, and she was right being that the First enchanter was the very core of the blood magic. Then in asunders it was because a group of mages wanted to force conflict with templers so they framed one of there own to get the templers extreme reaction.

[ilikesocks]

I look forward to stabbing the mages. ...on my first playthrough, anyway.

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

LOL, the Chantry is not a civilian building. It's a political organization that is directly responsible for the founding of the Circle system, and commands the Templar army.

being a vaguely political entity doesn't mean it's not a civilian building. Or is the chantry now a military base? Templars weren't even housed there, they were housed at the gallows. 

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't criticise people for the actions they take when their very lives are being directly threatened.

Even had the harvester killed hawke and the Templars Orsino and the mages would still be dead. And now there is a huge monster ready to destroy the city. It would be like me setting of a nuke if I was about to be killed. Mindlessly stupid and incredibly selfish. Easily the stupidest action performed in the entirety of Dragon Age 2, and that's really saying something. 

Plaintiff wrote...

Let's ignore all the civilians that were harmed by Templars in DA2.

Name one. 

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2013 - 01:15 .

[Taleroth]

Well, they weren't created by simply assigning a name to a generic human mook faction, so I'd say the connection is pretty bare.

[Ausstig]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

I saw this coming after Asunder. Any interest Biowear may once had an interest in showing bot sides even handedly, but any attempt to that was well and truely abandoned in Asunder; which reads as MAGEZ RULE, TEMPLARZ DRULE.

The article also ignores the reason the Templars broke away. It wasn't cause the CHantry wanted peace, it was because the Divine (the head of the Chantry) was actively plotting with the Mages and had her agents aid them, even to the point of killing Templars. So this is like in the cowboy cop movie where the head of the police is working with the Mob so the cop turns in his badge and goes out on his own. But the Templars are the bad guys for trying to do their jobs?

Won't waste my money on this game for the look of things. May buy it second hand if the story looks ok.

The Templar's "job" is to do what the Chantry says.

The Chantry was trying to maintain the status quo. By giving the mages minor freedoms, Divine Justinia hoped to prevent all-out war and keep the mages under Chantry control. The Seekers and the Templars disrupted that, and it's their fault that the conflict has exploded.

The Templars Job is to protect people from mages, they are guards. The Divine was undermining the Templars by not including them in the process. It would be like holding meditation between two people and not having one of them there. The Templars have to be a part of any solution, something the Divine did not understand, that's how she played into mage hands. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The article implies that they aren't going to portray both sides at "their worst" anymore.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 août 2013 - 01:19 .

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...
being a vaguely political entity doesn't mean it's not a civilian building. Or is the chantry now a military base? Templars weren't even housed there, they were housed at the gallows.

It doesn't have to be a military base to be an acceptable target.

Elthina, as Grand Cleric, commands Meredith and the Templars. The Chantry is the basis of Templar authority.

Even had the harvester killed hawke and the Templars Orsino and the mages would still be dead. And now there is a huge monster ready to destroy the city. It would be like me setting of a nuke if I was about to be killed. Mindlessly stupid and incredibly selfish. Easily the stupidest action performed in the entirety of Dragon Age 2 and that's really saying something.

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?

Name one.

A Templar death squad can be seen harrassing a woman in Lowtown for harboring her mage cousin who had been starved and beaten prior to escaping.

If you allowed Feynriel to go to the Dalish in Act 1, you can visit the camp at Sundermount in Act 2 and find a templar squad that has been torturing Dalish hunters and children in order to learn the whereabouts of Feynriel.

Meredith tried to force Aveline to cede authority of the city guard over to the Templars, and grossly overstepped her bounds by seizing control of the city and preventing the appointment of a new Viscount.

[BouncyFrag]

The devs would have a tough hill to climb if they intend to make a templar as awful as Kai Leng was.

[leaguer of one]

Ausstig wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

I saw this coming after Asunder. Any interest Biowear may once had an interest in showing bot sides even handedly, but any attempt to that was well and truely abandoned in Asunder; which reads as MAGEZ RULE, TEMPLARZ DRULE.

The article also ignores the reason the Templars broke away. It wasn't cause the CHantry wanted peace, it was because the Divine (the head of the Chantry) was actively plotting with the Mages and had her agents aid them, even to the point of killing Templars. So this is like in the cowboy cop movie where the head of the police is working with the Mob so the cop turns in his badge and goes out on his own. But the Templars are the bad guys for trying to do their jobs?

Won't waste my money on this game for the look of things. May buy it second hand if the story looks ok.

The Templar's "job" is to do what the Chantry says.

The Chantry was trying to maintain the status quo. By giving the mages minor freedoms, Divine Justinia hoped to prevent all-out war and keep the mages under Chantry control. The Seekers and the Templars disrupted that, and it's their fault that the conflict has exploded.

The Templars Job is to protect people from mages, they are guards. The Divine was undermining the Templars by not including them in the process. It would be like holding meditation between two people and not having one of them there. The Templars have to be a part of any solution, something the Divine did not understand, that's how she played into mage hands. 

The problem is that the head of the templers would not let any solution that would give mages more freedoms. That was what the problem. And the templers were underminding the divines order let and right. A comprimise have to happen to keep the need power of the mages with the qunari coming. A balance was need and the templar were being too stubbern.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?

If a mage expects to live in that world, they'd better care. Otherwise they do become monsters. And they should be treated that way.

[Plaintiff]

Ausstig wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

I saw this coming after Asunder. Any interest Biowear may once had an interest in showing bot sides even handedly, but any attempt to that was well and truely abandoned in Asunder; which reads as MAGEZ RULE, TEMPLARZ DRULE.

The article also ignores the reason the Templars broke away. It wasn't cause the CHantry wanted peace, it was because the Divine (the head of the Chantry) was actively plotting with the Mages and had her agents aid them, even to the point of killing Templars. So this is like in the cowboy cop movie where the head of the police is working with the Mob so the cop turns in his badge and goes out on his own. But the Templars are the bad guys for trying to do their jobs?

Won't waste my money on this game for the look of things. May buy it second hand if the story looks ok.

The Templar's "job" is to do what the Chantry says.

The Chantry was trying to maintain the status quo. By giving the mages minor freedoms, Divine Justinia hoped to prevent all-out war and keep the mages under Chantry control. The Seekers and the Templars disrupted that, and it's their fault that the conflict has exploded.

The Templars Job is to protect people from mages, they are guards. The Divine was undermining the Templars by not including them in the process. It would be like holding meditation between two people and not having one of them there. The Templars have to be a part of any solution, something the Divine did not understand, that's how she played into mage hands.

The Templars are subservient to the Chantry. Chantry interests are Templar interests. The Divine represents the Chantry, and that includes the Templars. She is their ultimate authority and their voice in the debate. They do not have a right to their own voice, and that's just tough for them.

The violent zealotry of the Templars was preventing any attempts at making peace. If they were truly invested in protecting the public, they should've accepted that that might require their role to change.

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
being a vaguely political entity doesn't mean it's not a civilian building. Or is the chantry now a military base? Templars weren't even housed there, they were housed at the gallows.

It doesn't have to be a military base to be an acceptable target.

Elthina, as Grand Cleric, commands Meredith and the Templars. The Chantry is the basis of Templar authority.

Even had the harvester killed hawke and the Templars Orsino and the mages would still be dead. And now there is a huge monster ready to destroy the city. It would be like me setting of a nuke if I was about to be killed. Mindlessly stupid and incredibly selfish. Easily the stupidest action performed in the entirety of Dragon Age 2 and that's really saying something.

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?

Name one.

A Templar death squad can be seen harrassing a woman in Lowtown for harboring her mage cousin who had been starved and beaten prior to escaping.

If you allowed Feynriel to go to the Dalish in Act 1, you can visit the camp at Sundermount in Act 2 and find a templar squad that has been torturing Dalish hunters and children in order to learn the whereabouts of Feynriel.

Meredith tried to force Aveline to cede authority of the city guard over to the Templars, and grossly overstepped her bounds by seizing control of the city and preventing the appointment of a new Viscount.

1. As long as the templars allow it.

2. You kidding right. You don't get the concept of every action gets a reaction. Read x-men and you can see why mage should care if they are seen as monsters or not.

3.Because Kurkwall is just that bad. What happens in Kurkwall does not reflect what every templer order does, The fereldin Cirle is nothing like that.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 20 août 2013 - 01:31 .