1470 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
What? ?You mean we don't institutionalise the mentaly disturbed

The mentally disturbed cannot take care of themselves. Their potential to cause harm to themselves or others isn't a sole factor in their insitutionalisation. It's often not a facotr at all.

or arrest and place terrorist suspects under constant survailence and house arrest?

If we do, then I oppose it. Just like I oppose many of the "precautinary measures" taken by Western powers in the wake of 9/11. 

My God, where is this fantastic place that you live, where none of these things happen? Because it happens on this planet.

Whether or not it happens is irrelevent.

1) Yes it is, they are committed  when they are a threat to themselves and other members of society.

2)You live a very sheltered existence if you haven't noticed that this has been going on for the last decade.

3)Yes it is relevant, because your point was we don't lock people up on what they pontentially do, but what they actually do. Well there you are, yes we do act based on potential threats.

Modifié par billy the squid, 23 août 2013 - 01:43 .

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Abusive, yes. It's a requirement of the job. Something pro-Templars just have to learn to accept.

"Evil" is relative. I don't use that term in serious discussions if I can help it.

The only job description templars have is to segregate mages from non-mages in order to ultimately facilitate the protection of both parties from the other. It isn't inherently abusive.

Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

Segregating them for their own protection isn't abuse

That's actually why I feel a reformed Circle should happen

[MassivelyEffective0730]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

[cjones91]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

[Zanallen]

cjones91 wrote...

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

Who would then control them? Would they be self regulated? Would they be under the governorship of whatever country they are located in? What happens if the king wants to use the mages housed in his country for his armies?

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

The Rite of Harrowing serves a purpose no matter how harsh it is

[MassivelyEffective0730]

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

[cjones91]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

Modifié par cjones91, 23 août 2013 - 01:54 .

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Abusive, yes. It's a requirement of the job. Something pro-Templars just have to learn to accept.

"Evil" is relative. I don't use that term in serious discussions if I can help it.

The only job description templars have is to segregate mages from non-mages in order to ultimately facilitate the protection of both parties from the other. It isn't inherently abusive.

Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

Segregation in and of itself is not abusive. It's the reason for it that is abusive. Segragation of criminals from the general public is not something I would say is abusive, but segregating of one race from another, becasue it is believed that the other is inferior, is. Mages being segragated because of the potential harm that they could cause others as well as themselves is not smething I would call abusive. That's just my opinion and if you belive otherwise than fair enough. How the mages are treated while they are in the Circle, however, is something I would call abusive. There is mental and phyisical abuse that is inflicted onto mages by templars and is something that needs to be stopped. But the segregation by itself is not. 

[Plaintiff]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Abusive, yes. It's a requirement of the job. Something pro-Templars just have to learn to accept.

"Evil" is relative. I don't use that term in serious discussions if I can help it.

The only job description templars have is to segregate mages from non-mages in order to ultimately facilitate the protection of both parties from the other. It isn't inherently abusive.

Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

So what do you suppose would happen if mages weren't.... 'abused' by segregation?

How the hell should I know? There are a million other societal factors at play. But I'm not dense enough to assume that increased freedom for mages automatically equates to a barren wasteland where no living thing will grow for a thousand years.

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

So what do you suppose would happen if mages weren't.... 'abused' by segregation?

How the hell should I know? There are a million other societal factors at play. But I'm not dense enough to assume that increased freedom for mages automatically equates to a barren wasteland where no living thing will grow for a thousand years.

And nobody said that, but the Circle wasn't a bad idea either

[Dave of Canada]

cjones91 wrote...

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

It's not racism to lock away mages, though. The point of the quarantine analogy is to demonstrate that we've segregated people from society on the assumption of sickness, innocent or not. The process may end the lives of otherwise healthy people but we save much more in the long run, not containing an afflicted individual claims hundreds/thousands of innocent lives.

Although the analogy isn't 1:1, it's one of the closest ones we can mention relating to real world.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Plaintiff wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Abusive, yes. It's a requirement of the job. Something pro-Templars just have to learn to accept.

"Evil" is relative. I don't use that term in serious discussions if I can help it.

The only job description templars have is to segregate mages from non-mages in order to ultimately facilitate the protection of both parties from the other. It isn't inherently abusive.

Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

So what do you suppose would happen if mages weren't.... 'abused' by segregation?

How the hell should I know? There are a million other societal factors at play. But I'm not dense enough to assume that increased freedom for mages automatically equates to a barren wasteland where no living thing will grow for a thousand years.

You can't make a suggestion based on an opinion without providing a real, credible argument or solution for it. Your argument is invalid on that premise and is no longer worth considering.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

And how will they be regulated? What determines "fair minded"?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

I never said otherwise but the claims of templar supporters then abominations can destroy entire cities is simply not true. its simply chantry propaganda.

Just make anders bomb, and plant it in multiple parts of town.

And there you go, an entire town destroyed. It must not have taken much energy to even activate, since anders was perfectly able to fight immediately after.

It takes who-knows-how-long to prepare, though.

We've yet to see any mage rain hellfire on a city at a whim, as Templars and their supporters are wont to claim. The examples we've seen of the worst mage abuses all required at least one of the following:

a) extensive time to prepare/experiment

secrecy

c) access to rare artefacts and materials

d) multiple mages working together

So yes, the threat mages present is more than a little overblown.

How does A,B, or C even manage to deter someone from making these bombs that only mages can create? And why do we need multiple mages? Anders could do it all by himself.

[Steelcan]

Nova Tevinter

[Cainhurst Crow]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

That's not a fitting analogy.

There is no anology that matches, because in the real world people aren't born with magical abilities.

When are you people going to get it through your thich skulls, mages are not the same as minorities or opressed people of our worlds history. You cannot compare them because mages are, by the power they are born with, thousands of times more dangerous and powerful than even the strongest normal person born into their same situation without powers.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

You think that will stop abuses of power from occuring with corrupt members? Who exactly does this third group answer to?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 23 août 2013 - 03:23 .

[Shadow Fox]

Lolz at Plaintiff digging himself into a hole and denying reality again.

[Shadow Fox]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

You think that will stop abuses of power from occuring with corrupt members? Who exactly does this third group answer to?

The Qun:devil:

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

You think that will stop abuses of power from occuring with corrupt members? Who exactly does this third group answer to?

The arls and rulers.

[Shadow Fox]

leaguer of one wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except for that one time an untrained abomination raised the dead and slowly destroyed a village.

Slowly being the keyword. Hardly a "walking nuclear bomb" as people say.

No one said they were walking nuclear bombs.

Note:
Storms,tidal waves and tornadoes can all destroy a town mages can conjure most of those at will:whistle:

[DPSSOC]

cjones91 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
What? ?You mean we don't institutionalise the mentaly disturbed or arrest and place terrorist suspects under constant surveillence and house arrest? 

My God, where is this fantastic place where you live, where none of these things happen? Because it happens on this planet.

Those people aren't imprisoned based on some religion that states they are monsters,mages are locked up for that very reason.

No, mages are locked up because that was the trade off they made.  Something mage supporters gloss over is that the Circle and the Templars were the mages' choice.  The founding principle is simple, magic is dangerous, and the system prior to the Circle addressed this by just telling mages they couldn't use magic unless they were authourised to.  The mages weren't satisfied with this system and protested.  The result was that the mages agreed to be segregated from society, with the Templars to act as guards, in exchange for the freedom to practice magic.

Mages want to have their cake and eat it too, which I get, but it really doesn't benefit anyone other than the mages so I understand people objecting to it.

cjones91 wrote...
There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

Define fair minded.  Also if the group's independent who ensures it's comprised of fair minded individuals?

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except for that one time an untrained abomination raised the dead and slowly destroyed a village.

Slowly being the keyword. Hardly a "walking nuclear bomb" as people say.

No one said they were walking nuclear bombs.

Note:
Storms,tidal waves and tornadoes can all destroy a town mages can conjure most of those at will:whistle:

Really?I guess I missed the spells that allow a mage to do that then.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Lol. Segregation isn't abuse? Do you hear yourself?

F*ck quarantines to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases. They are instruments of opression.

So you equate racism to diseases?I would agree if I did'nt know what you really meant.

Is it racism? Ignoring the etymological fallacy here, what would you propose for the mages, with no real training outside the Circle, have instead?

For one I would keep the circles but tell the Chantry to stay the hell away from them.The circles would be a place of learning and mages can go to them of their own free will if they want to control their powers.

And what would they do if they wanted to control their powers but didn't want to go to the Circle?

And if they don't learn to control their powers.... how are they going to learn to control their powers? 

And if they don't have some kind of oversight, who's going to keep them from learning at the Circle and organizing to conquer and dominate?

I don't agree with how overbearing the Chantry is with the mages, but I believe that they are absolutely necessary here in ensuring some kind of oversight and protection that serves both internal and external purposes. 

There would be a independant group that would oversee the circles,this group will be comprised of fair minded templars and mages.They will see to handling matters within the Circles so the Chantry can screw off for all I care.

You think that will stop abuses of power from occuring with corrupt members? Who exactly does this third group answer to?

The arls and rulers.

Then we get mages used and treated  as weapons by  corrupt noblity to fight territory wars.

Oops there goes that idea:innocent: