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Templars = Cerberus *Updated: "Red Templars"*


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#51
Plaintiff

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?


If a mage expects to live in that world, they'd better care. Otherwise they do become monsters. And they should be treated that way.

No. If society expects mages to treat them humanely, then they should start by treating their mages humanely. Treat people the way you want to be treated, that's how it works.

If you create a monster, you have only yourself to blame when it stomps on your house.

#52
Ianamus

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Plaintiff wrote...


Elthina, as Grand Cleric, commands Meredith and the Templars. The Chantry is the basis of Templar authority.


It's also a civillian building. Filled with civillians. If you condone blowing it up you condone terrorism.

Plaintiff wrote...

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?


So Merediths sister turning into an abomination and killing her entire family and village, up to 70 people, doesn't justify her views that mages should be firmly regulated. But living in a world where you are feared for being able to melt peoples faces with a click of the fingers justifies Orsino putting the lives of an entire city at risk out of spite?

Wow.

Plaintiff wrote...

A Templar death squad can be seen harrassing a woman in Lowtown for harboring her mage cousin who had been starved and beaten prior to escaping.

If you allowed Feynriel to go to the Dalish in Act 1, you can visit the camp at Sundermount in Act 2 and find a templar squad that has been torturing Dalish hunters and children in order to learn the whereabouts of Feynriel.

Meredith tried to force Aveline to cede authority of the city guard over to the Templars, and grossly overstepped her bounds by seizing control of the city and preventing the appointment of a new Viscount.


So one woman who is harboring an apostate, which is against the law, so therefore a criminal, and a group of xenephobic gypsies who have camped outside the city without permission and also harbor mages against the law. 

Meanwhile Anders is killing an entire chantryfull of every-day citizens who are just going there to pray and have no relation to the templars at all. And Quentin is murdering women who look like his dead wife. And the mages are summoning demons on the streets to fight the Templars. And Orsino is unleashing a harvester to kill everyone. 

The templars only harm you if you harbor mages. The mages seem to put your life at risk on a whim even when you aren't involved with mages or templars at all. Because persecution justifies sociopathy. 

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2013 - 01:42 .


#53
DPSSOC

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Plaintiff wrote...

Even had the harvester killed hawke and the Templars Orsino and the mages would still be dead. And now there is a huge monster ready to destroy the city. It would be like me setting of a nuke if I was about to be killed. Mindlessly stupid and incredibly selfish. Easily the stupidest action performed in the entirety of Dragon Age 2 and that's really saying something.

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?


Because they don't gain anything by proving them right.  If I've got a reputation and people treat me like a brutish thug I do not improve my lot by acting like a brutish thug.  The mages greatest fight, and one they are going to lose based on most of their attitudes and actions, is one of hearts and minds.  If they don't rise above people's expectations of them they will only breed more resentment, hatred, and fear and the whole thing starts over again.

#54
leaguer of one

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Plaintiff wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?


If a mage expects to live in that world, they'd better care. Otherwise they do become monsters. And they should be treated that way.

No. If society expects mages to treat them humanely, then they should start by treating their mages humanely. Treat people the way you want to be treated, that's how it works.

If you create a monster, you have only yourself to blame when it stomps on your house.

Wrong. Let's look at Anders at the start of DA2. He was freely healing fereldin Refuges. They loved him for that so much they were willing to fight and die to protect him.
Mages proving they are not monster are the first step to get people to treating them like human beings.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 20 août 2013 - 01:35 .


#55
Jedi Master of Orion

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No. Mages are capable of being responsible for their actions, they bear the responsibly if they become monsters. And even if that wasn't true, if mages become monsters, that still makes them villains that need to be stopped.Being a persecuted minority doesn't make anyone morally superior to the rest of the world or give them the right to do whatever they want.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 août 2013 - 01:36 .


#56
leaguer of one

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No. Mages are capable of being responsible for their actions, they bear the responsibly if they become monsters. And even if that wasn't true, if mages become monsters, that still makes them villains that need to be stopped.Being a persecuted minority doesn't make anyone morally superior to the rest of the world.

Mage are not the villains here. They only are if they disreguard other for their persnal gain. But in the end this can happen to any one mage or not.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 20 août 2013 - 01:37 .


#57
Xilizhra

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DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Even had the harvester killed hawke and the Templars Orsino and the mages would still be dead. And now there is a huge monster ready to destroy the city. It would be like me setting of a nuke if I was about to be killed. Mindlessly stupid and incredibly selfish. Easily the stupidest action performed in the entirety of Dragon Age 2 and that's really saying something.

Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?


Because they don't gain anything by proving them right.  If I've got a reputation and people treat me like a brutish thug I do not improve my lot by acting like a brutish thug.  The mages greatest fight, and one they are going to lose based on most of their attitudes and actions, is one of hearts and minds.  If they don't rise above people's expectations of them they will only breed more resentment, hatred, and fear and the whole thing starts over again.

Thankfully, the templars' betrayal of the Chantry, as well as simple time, has given them an edge here. It's not a lost cause by any means.

#58
Jedi Master of Orion

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leager of one wrote...
Mage are not the villains here. They only are if they disreguard other for their persnal gain. But in the end this can happen to any one mage
or not.


I didn't necessarily mean specifically in the plot of Dragon Age 3, I just meant in principle if a persecuted minority is selfish and violent.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 août 2013 - 01:55 .


#59
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?

The universe is an uncaring and cold place, there is no God, 1% of the population hold 99% of the wealth, love is only lust combined with reproduction instincts and if someone does something good it's only because part of our brains release a chemical when it happens that makes us feel good.
Basically, life is hard. Doesn't mean we should kill people when it becomes convenient.

A Templar death squad can be seen harrassing a woman in Lowtown for harboring her mage cousin who had been starved and beaten prior to escaping.

If she is aiding a fugitive from the law, then she stops being a civillian and becomes a collaborator which is a crime in any country in the world.
Death penalty is harsh but at least the templars are not killing women and stitching their remains together to form of doll of one's wife.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 août 2013 - 01:48 .


#60
leaguer of one

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

leager of one wrote...
Mage are not the villains here. They only are if they disreguard other for their persnal gain. But in the end this can happen to any one mage
or not.


I didn't necessarily mean specifically in the plot of Dragon Age 3, I just meant in principle of a persecuted minority acting selfish and violent.

Both sides are guilty of that.

#61
DPSSOC

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Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Because they don't gain anything by proving them right.  If I've got a reputation and people treat me like a brutish thug I do not improve my lot by acting like a brutish thug.  The mages greatest fight, and one they are going to lose based on most of their attitudes and actions, is one of hearts and minds.  If they don't rise above people's expectations of them they will only breed more resentment, hatred, and fear and the whole thing starts over again.

Thankfully, the templars' betrayal of the Chantry, as well as simple time, has given them an edge here. It's not a lost cause by any means.


I don't see how the Templars behaviour changes things for the mages in this regard.  No matter how bad the Templars get it's not going to change the public perception of mages.  If mages continue on as they have in the past 2 games they are not going to win anyone over.  Now I haven't read the books so maybe there are more mages portrayed as more personable, compassionate, or even just considerate.  Not to mention Anders set up a pretty big hurdle, cause now any mage who seems genuinely decent and helpful might just be another monster biding their time.

#62
leaguer of one

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MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Why shouldn't Orsino be selfish? Why should he or any mage give a crap about a world that treats them like monsters?

The universe is an uncaring and cold place, there is no God, 1% of the population hold 99% of the wealth, love is only lust combined with reproduction instincts and if someone does something good it's only because part of our brains release a chemical when it happens that makes us feel good.
Basically, life is hard. Doesn't mean we should kill people when it becomes convenient.

A Templar death squad can be seen harrassing a woman in Lowtown for harboring her mage cousin who had been starved and beaten prior to escaping.

If she is aiding a fugitive from the law, then she stops being a civillian and becomes a collaborator which is a crime in any country in the world.
Death penalty is harsh but at least the templars are not killing women and stitching their remains together to form of a doll of one's wife.

That second point is not exclusive to mages. Any one can kill like that, mage or not.

#63
BlueMagitek

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leaguer of one wrote...

Wrong. Let's look at Anders at the start of DA2. He was freely healing fereldin Refuges. They loved him for that so much they were willing to fight and die to protect him.
Mages proving they are not monster are the first step to get people to treating them like human beings.


One of the issues is that all of Anders work is undone by, say, a mage who thinks that she can properly control the Harvester golems, and unleashes another wave of them by accident when he loses control.

The people already fear, distrust, and most likely dislike mages.  That makes it significantly easier to show on negative ancedote to 'prove' a point than a positive one to reject it.   Especially when Mages are, quite frankly, terrifying.  These are people that can conjure storms and flames from nothing, while killing people from across the continent in their sleep.  They can alter your mind without your awareness and force you to do things you normally wouldn't. 

I'd also like to point out that most of the populace of Thedas are uneducated peasantry, which tends to breed more fear from the unknown.  Especially when the object of their fear is already terrifying enough.  :wizard:

#64
Plaintiff

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EJ107 wrote...
It's also a civillian building. Filled with civillians. If you condone blowing it up you condone terrorism.

Where are they, then? The cutscene shows only Elthina and two templars in the Chantry at the time of the explosion.

LOL at your reductive and nonsensical argument. I'm fully capable of supporting supposedly "terrorist" actions on a case by case basis, while disapproving of others.

Plaintiff wrote...
So Merediths sister turning into an abomination and killing her entire family and village, up to 70 people, doesn't justify her views that mages should be firmly regulated.

Meredith's past, if anything, proves that she's too close to the issue to be objective. She's not fit to be in charge of mages at all.

But living in a world where you are feared for being able to melt peoples faces with a click of the fingers justifies Orsino putting the lives of an entire city at risk out of spite?

**** you're dense. Orsino's life was being directly threatened. Templars were charging into the Gallows to murder him and everyone he cared about.

Everyone has the right to defend the life and liberty of themselves and their friends with any and all of the tools at their disposal. That's what Orsino was doing

So one woman who is harboring an apostate, which is against the law, so therefore a criminal, and a group of xenephobic gypsies who have camped outside the city without permission and also harbor mages against the law.

Who cares if what they're doing is against the "law"? The "law" is not always right. If the law said that police were allowed to just barge into your house and rape your children, would that be right? For god's sake, employ your critical faculties.

Meanwhile Anders is killing an entire chantryfull of every-day citizens who are just going there to pray and have no relation to the templars at all.

The Chantry is clearly shown to be empty, you liar.

And Quentin is murdering women who look like his dead wife.

Quentin is insane.

And the mages are summoning demons on the streets to fight the Templars. And Orsino is unleashing a harvester to kill everyone.

Self-defense, perfectly justifiable.

The templars only harm you if you harbor mages.

Which is wrong. Hurting people for helping their loved ones is wrong.

And that's not even true. The templars harm people for being mages. They tear them away from their families, forbid them from having children, lock them up in tiny rooms, subject them to a test that pits them against powerful demons, rape their minds if they're arbitrarily judged to be"too weak" to take the aforementioned exam, or in the worst cases, slaughter the entire circle for being arbitrarily judged "irredeemable" by some bigoted old bat at the church.

The mages seem to put your life at risk on a whim even when you aren't involved with mages or templars at all. Because persecution justifies sociopathy.

When you corner an animal, you get bitten. Deal with it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 août 2013 - 01:54 .


#65
leaguer of one

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BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Wrong. Let's look at Anders at the start of DA2. He was freely healing fereldin Refuges. They loved him for that so much they were willing to fight and die to protect him.
Mages proving they are not monster are the first step to get people to treating them like human beings.


One of the issues is that all of Anders work is undone by, say, a mage who thinks that she can properly control the Harvester golems, and unleashes another wave of them by accident when he loses control.

The people already fear, distrust, and most likely dislike mages.  That makes it significantly easier to show on negative ancedote to 'prove' a point than a positive one to reject it.   Especially when Mages are, quite frankly, terrifying.  These are people that can conjure storms and flames from nothing, while killing people from across the continent in their sleep.  They can alter your mind without your awareness and force you to do things you normally wouldn't. 

I'd also like to point out that most of the populace of Thedas are uneducated peasantry, which tends to breed more fear from the unknown.  Especially when the object of their fear is already terrifying enough.  :wizard:

Which is why showing mages are not monster is so important. I'm not say there should not be any regulation. Just not one as extreme as the one we  have now. Banning mages  from using healing mage does not help as well as pointless restrictions.

#66
Ianamus

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Plaintiff wrote...

**** you're dense. 


Wow. Personal insults because I disagree with your opinions on a video game.

Thats really quite sad.

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2013 - 02:07 .


#67
Vit246

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No. No more Cerberus. They got turned from a tiny group in an optional sidequest into a galaxy-wide faction with a military that rivaled the militaries of the four Council races themselves.

#68
Plaintiff

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MisterJB wrote...
The universe is an uncaring and cold place, there is no God, 1% of the population hold 99% of the wealth, love is only lust combined with reproduction instincts and if someone does something good it's only because part of our brains release a chemical when it happens that makes us feel good.
Basically, life is hard. Doesn't mean we should kill people when it becomes convenient.

Unless you'e a Templar or a member of Cerberus, in which case every awful thing you do is totally justified. So sayeth MisterJB.

If she is aiding a fugitive from the law, then she stops being a civillian and becomes a collaborator which is a crime in any country in the world.

So ****ing what? The law of Thedas is corrupt and worthless.

Death penalty is harsh but at least the templars are not killing women and stitching their remains together to form of doll of one's wife.

And at least mages aren't lobotmising people so they can rape them without fear of reprisal.

Two can play at your game.

#69
Plaintiff

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EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

**** you're dense. 


Wow. Personal insults because I disagree with your opinions on a video game.

Thats really quite sad.

"I can't address your points, so let me sidetrack the argument entirely".

Nice try.

#70
AresKeith

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Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

**** you're dense. 


Wow. Personal insults because I disagree with your opinions on a video game.

Thats really quite sad.

"I can't address your points, so let me sidetrack the argument entirely".

Nice try.


He's right though :whistle:

#71
Plaintiff

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AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

**** you're dense. 


Wow. Personal insults because I disagree with your opinions on a video game.

Thats really quite sad.

"I can't address your points, so let me sidetrack the argument entirely".

Nice try.


He's right though :whistle:

Lol, and telling someone they support "all terrorism" isn't insulting?

Glass houses, etc.

#72
Steelcan

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I don't think any of the factions in DA really compare well to Cerberus.


But the Inquisition looks like it might...

#73
Ianamus

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Plaintiff wrote...

Lol, and telling someone they support "all terrorism" isn't insulting?

Glass houses, etc.


Blowing up the chantry is an act of terrorism. If you're condoning it then you're condoning the use of terrorism. I'm sorry if you find that insulting, but it is true. 

Your exact wording was:

"It doesn't have to be a military base to be an acceptable target."

So civillian builds are acceptable targets to blow up? I'm sorry, but I really don't see how you don't see the issue with that sentence. 

Plaintiff wrote...

Where are they, then? The cutscene shows only Elthina and two templars in the Chantry at the time of the explosion.


And Anders knew this how? 

He didn't. He just didn't care.

Plaintiff wrote...

Meredith's past, if anything, proves that she's too close to the issue to be objective. She's not fit to be in charge of mages at all.


By that logic no mage should be allowed an opinion on the matter. They are too close to the issue, being mages themselves.

Plaintiff wrote...
**** you're dense. Orsino's life was being directly threatened. Templars were charging into the Gallows to murder him and everyone he cared about.


So he commits suicide and takes out the entire city with him. And you're justifying that. 

Plaintiff wrote...
Everyone has the right to defend the life and liberty of themselves and their friends with any and all of the tools at their disposal. That's what Orsino was doing


He killed himself and his friends in order to get revenge on the templars in death, and potentially kill dozens more in the process. How is that protecting the life or liberty of anyone?!


Plaintiff wrote...

Which is wrong. Hurting people for helping their loved ones is wrong.


If their loved ones are criminals then I see no problem with it. 

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2013 - 02:13 .


#74
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
Unless you'e a Templar or a member of Cerberus, in which case every awful thing you do is totally justified. So sayeth MisterJB.

MisterJB sayeth you're not even pretending to use arguments anymore.
Do I really need to explain the difference between killing your own people and yourself in a petty strike against your enemy that will also kill an entire city of innocent people who have never done a thing to you and imposing freedoms upon the liberties of people capable of killing others with a thought?

So ****ing what? The law of Thedas is corrupt and worthless.

Not really but that's not the point. Let's take a look back, you said:

"Let's ignore all the civilians that were harmed by Templars in DA2"

Civillians were not harmed by Templars in DA2. Those assisting mages, as defined by the law, are collaborators. You are free to think that this law shouldn't exist but, by the very definition of the word, those assisting mages were not civillians.

So, what civillians were harmed by Templars in DA2? None, they were collaborators assiting in the escape of dangerous fugitives thus endagering every single person in Kirkwall as well as Thedas as a whole.


And at least mages aren't lobotmising people so they can rape them without fear of reprisal.

Danarius lobotomised Fenris and then raped him without fear of reprisal.

Tell me, where do you think rape is more common? The Circle, where mages are, at least, given freedoms and rights that must be respected; even if they are not always so; and who have dully elected representatives to advocate for their needs in the halls of power, or Tevinter where a slave has as much legal personality as a stool?

#75
Jedi Master of Orion

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Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
It's also a civillian building. Filled with civillians. If you condone blowing it up you condone terrorism.

Where are they, then? The cutscene shows only Elthina and two templars in the Chantry at the time of the explosion.


Dragon Age 2 doesn't show NPC models of everything that exists in Kirkwall. If we took everything at face value then, only 2 or 3 clerics ever go to the Chantry, most people don't move from one spot over seven years and Hawke only protected like a dozen or so mages in the annulment.

If Hawke confronts Anders afterward (as in if he or she lets him go and then sides with the templars) Hawke can  say that he "murdered helpless priests." It wasn't empty.

Plaintiff wrote...

And the mages are summoning demons on the streets to fight the Templars. And Orsino is unleashing a harvester to kill everyone.

Self-defense, perfectly justifiable.


Defending yourself by burning down the an entire neighbourhood and everyone in it is not.

Plaintiff wrote...

The mages seem to put your life at risk on a whim even when you aren't involved with mages or templars at all. Because persecution justifies sociopathy.

When you corner an animal, you get bitten. Deal with it.


Assuming we continue with this analogy, dangerous animals also need to be put down, no matter what the reason they became dangerous animals.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 août 2013 - 02:15 .