1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I hope Templars don't get the Cerberus treatment

May get flamed for this, but I actually like the templars. I understand why they're needed, but DA2 made it clear that both mages and templars have their extremes

I hope, as Inquisitor, we can find a middle ground for both groups

I mean the mage-templar war, and make knows what other political conflicts are tearing the world apart, probably worse than the 5th Blight ever did

[Barquiel]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
That's why the Circles have to be independent and not beholden to any higher authority.

The problem with that is that you're asking a kingdom to have part of their land annex so that a self-governing mage commune can live there. I can't see how any aristrocracy could tolerate that much of a threat to their power. 

Well, a secular force of templars would be a step in the right direction. But I think mages are capable of policing themselves (they would still have to answer to the ruling monarch).

[leaguer of one]

Cheylus wrote...

I asked the questions there already, but haven't got any response.

Don't you think Thedas need a "special force" of some kind anyway, built specifically to counter some users and effects of magic?

Don't you think a specific, compulsory education is needed for mages?

Yes, and Yes. The issue is prosses of it and who is in charge of it.

[leaguer of one]

Barquiel wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
That's why the Circles have to be independent and not beholden to any higher authority.

The problem with that is that you're asking a kingdom to have part of their land annex so that a self-governing mage commune can live there. I can't see how any aristrocracy could tolerate that much of a threat to their power. 

Well, a secular force of templars would be a step in the right direction. But I think mages are capable of policing themselves (they would still have to answer to the ruling monarch).

Tevinter says no. I say both Templars and MAGE work together to enforce mages.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 24 août 2013 - 04:18 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Morocco Mole wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter says no. I say both Templars and MAGE work together to enforce mages.

This makes too much sense so I think you better pick one of these annoying, poorly written sides in this conflict right now my friend

It really is a shame.

My inner bomb throwing revolutionary wants to support the mages.

But my inner realist knows they are far to dangerous to live without restrictions.

Clearly the best solution is to merge all mages and mundanes thus ending the conflict!

[Ausstig]

Barquiel wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
That's why the Circles have to be independent and not beholden to any higher authority.

The problem with that is that you're asking a kingdom to have part of their land annex so that a self-governing mage commune can live there. I can't see how any aristrocracy could tolerate that much of a threat to their power. 

Well, a secular force of templars would be a step in the right direction. But I think mages are capable of policing themselves (they would still have to answer to the ruling monarch).

But why? Why are 'secular' templars better? Thedas does not have a lot of international organisations. The Chantry is the only one (aside from the Wardens). So who would run it? 

Also how would the mages support them selves? Would they grow food or buy it? Cause if they buy it, the local Monarch could put significant pressure on them to follow his orders. Also things go really bad when they get nationalised, the Spanish Inquistion went bad when the Queen used it to attack her enemies, which is what I feel will happen if mages are answerable to the King. It could then get into a 'magic arms race'. 

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter says no. I say both Templars and MAGE work together to enforce mages.

In theory, I would agree. But the truth is that the Circle system is supposed to work exactly like that.
Templars ensure the mages can't leave to hurt the people but in order for the KC to punish a mage or select one for Harrowing, he must have the permission of the FE.
In some places, such as Ferelden, this actually works and the balance allows for a more cooperative relationship. But, in others, human nature reveals itself and one side will, inevitably, work to gain the upperhand over the others; sometimes the Templars win, Kirkwall, sometimes the mages do, Tevinter; and when that happens, they run the place however they see fit.
Working for equality is a worthy endeavour but, more often than not, one side will dominate the other. It's just the way people are.

[SNascimento]

The Templars will never be as cool as Cerberus!

[leaguer of one]

Morocco Mole wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter says no. I say both Templars and MAGE work together to enforce mages.

This makes too much sense so I think you better pick one of these annoying, poorly written sides in this conflict right now my friend

Blame the chantry. For a time they were lead by single minded zelots.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter says no. I say both Templars and MAGE work together to enforce mages.

In theory, I would agree. But the truth is that the Circle system is supposed to work exactly like that.
Templars ensure the mages can't leave to hurt the people but in order for the KC to punish a mage or select one for Harrowing, he must have the permission of the FE.
In some places, such as Ferelden, this actually works and the balance allows for a more cooperative relationship. But, in others, human nature reveals itself and one side will, inevitably, work to gain the upperhand over the others; sometimes the Templars win, Kirkwall, sometimes the mages do, Tevinter; and when that happens, they run the place however they see fit.
Working for equality is a worthy endeavour but, more often than not, one side will dominate the other. It's just the way people are.

The circle does not work like that. The cmages of the cirle traches the mages only and then they are entraped in the towers. Only the templars enforce.

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
The circle does not work like that. The cmages of the cirle traches the mages only and then they are entraped in the towers. Only the templars enforce.

Ok, I'm not sure what you're saying right now. If you're saying that the KC doesn't need the FE's approval to order the Rite of Tranquility, I can just point you to these two quotes by David Gaider that confirm what I'm saying.

http://social.biowar...ex/7429694&lf=8
http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8


On the other hand, if you're saying that this doesn't qualify as policing, then you're incorrect. Tranquilising mages or tracking them with a phylactery (another thing that requires both the KC and FE as seen in the Magi Origin) qualify for policing in accordance with its definition.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The circle does not work like that. The cmages of the cirle traches the mages only and then they are entraped in the towers. Only the templars enforce.

Ok, I'm not sure what you're saying right now. If you're saying that the KC doesn't need the FE's approval to order the Rite of Tranquility, I can just point you to these two quotes by David Gaider that confirm what I'm saying.

http://social.biowar...ex/7429694&lf=8
http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8


On the other hand, if you're saying that this doesn't qualify as policing, then you're incorrect. Tranquilising mages or tracking them with a phylactery (another thing that requires both the KC and FE as seen in the Magi Origin) qualify for policing in accordance with its definition.

That's more management then policing.  The issue of tranquility is that it's not a weapon or a punishment. It just there to manage weaker mages who can't control there powers. In fact by chantry law a mage that past there Harrowing can't be made traquil.(Ander's tells you this in DA:A) The Kirkwall Templars miss use it clearly being that they also must have  the ok from the first enchanter first to do it.
Mages that  are found to use blood magic are put to death and Apostates normally are just chased down and capture. Policing is more then just choosing who become traquil or not.

What I mean is investigating the doings of mages and searching for apostates. If a blood mage is found and a problem happen in the circle both the mages and templar deal with it as enforcer and security.

Thinking Traquility is a weapon or punishment is a miss understanding of it and only bad templar would see it that way. 

Modifié par leaguer of one, 25 août 2013 - 03:02 .

[Shadow Fox]

Honestly I'm with Varric I'm sick of mages vs templars.

[leaguer of one]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Honestly I'm with Varric I'm sick of mages vs templars.

If I could just get the all guards of kirkwall I would bring them both down.

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The circle does not work like that. The cmages of the cirle traches the mages only and then they are entraped in the towers. Only the templars enforce.

Ok, I'm not sure what you're saying right now. If you're saying that the KC doesn't need the FE's approval to order the Rite of Tranquility, I can just point you to these two quotes by David Gaider that confirm what I'm saying.

http://social.biowar...ex/7429694&lf=8
http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8


On the other hand, if you're saying that this doesn't qualify as policing, then you're incorrect. Tranquilising mages or tracking them with a phylactery (another thing that requires both the KC and FE as seen in the Magi Origin) qualify for policing in accordance with its definition.

That's more management then policing.  The issue of tranquility is that it's not a weapon or a punishment. It just there to manage weaker mages who can't control there powers. In fact by chantry law a mage that past there Harrowing can't be made traquil.(Ander's tells you this in DA:A) The Kirkwall Templars miss use it clearly being that they also must have  the ok from the first enchanter first to do it.
Mages that  are found to use blood magic are put to death and Apostates normally are just chased down and capture. Policing is more then just choosing who become traquil or not.

What I mean is investigating the doings of mages and searching for apostates. If a blood mage is found and a problem happen in the circle both the mages and templar deal with it as enforcer and security.

Thinking Traquility is a weapon or punishment is a miss understanding of it and only bad templar would see it that way. 

When it comes to mages and templars, it's not often MisterJB and I agree...hardly ever, but he and I have a lot of fun in good-nature debate, and we respect each other. In this case, I have to agree with him.

The circle was originally designed to be run by the mages as well as the templars, who were there to oversee and advise, which was the original compromise with the Chantry.

Codex Entry: History of the Circle

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more
successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do
something. Unfortunately, the Chantry
of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did
not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic
to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every
chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps
occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.
I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.
It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux,
in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded
themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia
II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars
discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while
negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth
from the loft.
The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside
of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the
Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal
society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own
closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.
--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

In the last paragraph, I bolded the part where it shows they were supposed to be led by a council of their own magi, and under the eye of the templars. However, we know for a fact that this is simply not how every Circle is run in the centuries since. The Rite of Annulment didn't exist as a punishment when the Circle was first organized, and I'm unsure about whether tranquility existed at that time either so I can't discuss that one.

But the very moment the Chantry was given the authority to use the Rite of Annulment, any amount of power the Circle may have had in self-governance went out the window because another organization had just been given the power to commit genocide upon them if a Grand Cleric deems the Circle irreedemable. Not a council of templars and mages, not the First Enchanter working with the Knight-Commander, but the Grand Cleric who may not ever set foot in the Circle.

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The circle does not work like that. The cmages of the cirle traches the mages only and then they are entraped in the towers. Only the templars enforce.

Ok, I'm not sure what you're saying right now. If you're saying that the KC doesn't need the FE's approval to order the Rite of Tranquility, I can just point you to these two quotes by David Gaider that confirm what I'm saying.

http://social.biowar...ex/7429694&lf=8
http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8


On the other hand, if you're saying that this doesn't qualify as policing, then you're incorrect. Tranquilising mages or tracking them with a phylactery (another thing that requires both the KC and FE as seen in the Magi Origin) qualify for policing in accordance with its definition.

That's more management then policing.  The issue of tranquility is that it's not a weapon or a punishment. It just there to manage weaker mages who can't control there powers. In fact by chantry law a mage that past there Harrowing can't be made traquil.(Ander's tells you this in DA:A) The Kirkwall Templars miss use it clearly being that they also must have  the ok from the first enchanter first to do it.
Mages that  are found to use blood magic are put to death and Apostates normally are just chased down and capture. Policing is more then just choosing who become traquil or not.

What I mean is investigating the doings of mages and searching for apostates. If a blood mage is found and a problem happen in the circle both the mages and templar deal with it as enforcer and security.

Thinking Traquility is a weapon or punishment is a miss understanding of it and only bad templar would see it that way. 

When it comes to mages and templars, it's not often MisterJB and I agree...hardly ever, but he and I have a lot of fun in good-nature debate, and we respect each other. In this case, I have to agree with him.

The circle was originally designed to be run by the mages as well as the templars, who were there to oversee and advise, which was the original compromise with the Chantry.

Codex Entry: History of the Circle

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more
successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do
something. Unfortunately, the Chantry
of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did
not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic
to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every
chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps
occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.
I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.
It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux,
in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded
themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia
II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars
discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while
negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth
from the loft.
The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside
of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the
Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal
society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own
closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.
--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

In the last paragraph, I bolded the part where it shows they were supposed to be led by a council of their own magi, and under the eye of the templars. However, we know for a fact that this is simply not how every Circle is run in the centuries since. The Rite of Annulment didn't exist as a punishment when the Circle was first organized, and I'm unsure about whether tranquility existed at that time either so I can't discuss that one.

But the very moment the Chantry was given the authority to use the Rite of Annulment, any amount of power the Circle may have had in self-governance went out the window because another organization had just been given the power to commit genocide upon them if a Grand Cleric deems the Circle irreedemable. Not a council of templars and mages, not the First Enchanter working with the Knight-Commander, but the Grand Cleric who may not ever set foot in the Circle.

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

If that was the case then it has to go back to the way it was. It  no longer is that.

[Ausstig]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

But don't the Rivain Seers often allow them selves to become abinations?

Would you really want that to spread?

I don't think the Chantry uses the Rite lightly. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ausstig wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

But don't the Rivain Seers often allow them selves to become abinations?

Would you really want that to spread?

I don't think the Chantry uses the Rite lightly. 

I don't think that they become abomination abomination is something like uldred or connor (but in case second we could save him) abomination is creature who objective is to destroy and kill simple for evil and rule the world and bring more abominations into world practically becoming demon such peoples like anders or wynne aren't abominations while they may have some changes they most stay themselves i guess that same go for whitches who allow be possesed by spirit (not demon). 

[Dermain]

Ausstig wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

But don't the Rivain Seers often allow them selves to become abinations?
 
Would you really want that to spread?

I don't think the Chantry uses the Rite lightly. 

While looking for examples of the use of the Rite of Annulment on the wiki (I'm sure people who have World of Thedas have it easier). I came across the term Mortalitasi which is apparently a secretive group of mages who specialize in death magic in Nevarra. They apparently help prepare bodies for the Nevarran way of burial, namely mummification. They are not deprived of wealth/political power and serve as advisors for the nobility. Since I'm assuming this was not mentioned in World of Thedas does anyone know of any other sources besides the wiki?

They're mentioned there.
http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Nevarra

[Elhanan]

I do not have this in my mindset currently; have even allied with the Templars in a few of my playthroughs, so I cannot see them as perverse as Cerberus for future games. But then, I have seldom chosen to play as someone as twisted as TIM.

[Dermain]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

But don't the Rivain Seers often allow them selves to become abinations?

Would you really want that to spread?

I don't think the Chantry uses the Rite lightly. 

I don't think that they become abomination abomination is something like uldred or connor (but in case second we could save him) abomination is creature who objective is to destroy and kill simple for evil and rule the world and bring more abominations into world practically becoming demon such peoples like anders or wynne aren't abominations while they may have some changes they most stay themselves i guess that same go for whitches who allow be possesed by spirit (not demon). 

Technically, any mage that allows a fade entity into it's body is an abomination. The extent that the entity goes to to control it's host would be my deciding factor in whether or not the mage is a danger.

Wynne's spirit does not seem to control/alter her behavior at all so she should not be a danger. Anders on the other hand becomes consumed by his desire to bring "justice" to the oppresed (mages), and vengeance against the oppresors (the chantry). We observe Justice assuming direct control over Anders multiple times in DA2 which would make him a danger to others.

We do not know to what extent the seers of Rivain go to be possessed, or what happens to them after they are possessed. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Myrkale wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or in Rivain when the Seekers found out that some mages were in contact with family members and called foul, and decided to kill all the mages as a result. (World of Thedas.)

But the Circle was originally designed to be templars and mages working together. Such is the case no longer.

But don't the Rivain Seers often allow them selves to become abinations?

Would you really want that to spread?

I don't think the Chantry uses the Rite lightly. 

I don't think that they become abomination abomination is something like uldred or connor (but in case second we could save him) abomination is creature who objective is to destroy and kill simple for evil and rule the world and bring more abominations into world practically becoming demon such peoples like anders or wynne aren't abominations while they may have some changes they most stay themselves i guess that same go for whitches who allow be possesed by spirit (not demon). 

Technically, any mage that allows a fade entity into it's body is an abomination. The extent that the entity goes to to control it's host would be my deciding factor in whether or not the mage is a danger.

Wynne's spirit does not seem to control/alter her behavior at all so she should not be a danger. Anders on the other hand becomes consumed by his desire to bring "justice" to the oppresed (mages), and vengeance against the oppresors (the chantry). We observe Justice assuming direct control over Anders multiple times in DA2 which would make him a danger to others.

We do not know to what extent the seers of Rivain go to be possessed, or what happens to them after they are possessed. 

from codex
"But once an abomination is created, it will do its best to create more"

Pride demon
"It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring
other demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends"

It is clear that abomination in-universe mean that abomination is demon who control mage/someone body abomination is monster we fight it can change his look into orginal form (this more powerful) or in case weaker into body horror. Even if we talk with morrigan we can told her isn't abomination is often destructive monster her respone is that not often only always or something similar i don't renember entirely this dialogue.

Anders and wynne are hosts for spirit but aren't control them when spirit may affect on anders i don't think that had so much influence on him he just go road well intentioned extremist becoming him more and more by his experience when vengance sometimes take control andars practically always is in control.