MisterJB wrote...
dragonflight288 wrote...
Oh yes. I am absolutely terrified of her giving me a good finger-wagging. Her and that Spirit of Faith that is possessing her.
Since Wynne is not an insane abomination, wantonly killing indiscrimintely, summoning demons or spreading chaos and mayhem, but is possessed of a spirit, we can go back to Morrigan's question and say that abominations truly are not always mindless and insane horrors. And that leads to her second question, if it's not always, then when is it not so?
It's entirely possible that there are plenty of Rivaini Seers allow themselves to be possessed by spirits of various virtues, and maintain their sanity, rather than the vices like Pride, Desire and Rage as we so often see in the Andrastian Circles. What we do know is quite simple. The Seers are so revered by the non-mages of Rivain that when the Chantry originally tried putting them in the Circles, the Rivaini mundanes resisted so strongly that the Chantry allowed the Seers far more allowances than any other Circle, and World of Thedas makes it clear that the Circle system itself in Rivain was largely considered nothing more than a formality. At least until a Seeker decided that mainting ties with family was deserving of death to every mage there.
That's unfair. It is true that Wynne remains a good person even after being possessed by a spirit but she is the only confirmed case where that occurred. After a mage possessed a "good" spirit commited an act of terrorism, I daresay the templar's tolerance for "good" spirits has shortened.
Therefore, perhaps the templars were less worried about family ties; which in itself is not strictly forbidden in most Circles so long as they happen inside the towers (see Finn and his visiting parents); and more about the irreversible possession the female mages had undertaken and were planning to incite young girls into.
Perhaps the Seers are all very helpful but we don't know that; and the opinion of the non-mages masses are hardly the final word on it. After all, if you were to try and forbid child brides in Yemen I daresay you would face some riots but, meanwhile, that sort of this is considered unthinkable in Western Society.
In fact, if the opinion of the masses are all that we need to claim that Seers are, to use simplistic terms, good; then the mages in all other Andrastian societies are clearly evil because the masses hate them and want to get rid of them and there is no longer any point in arguing about the Circles anymore.
Realistically speaking, perhaps the Seers are very helpful but we do know; and after DA2 Thedas also knows; that human emotions can easily corrupt a spirit. Meaning that Seers are extremely dangerous. Seers are not born possessed and they do not need to be possessed in order to be alive. Therefore, the templars did not punish people for what they are but rather for what they did.
If we can't even ask mages to not be possessed because we'll offend their cultural sensitivities, what rules can we extablish?
How's it unfair? It's true. Wynne is an example of a mage possessed by a spirit, and is neither insane nor is she seeking to destroy the Chantry. And if she exists, then it stands to reason, using her as a precedent, that it's not impossible for such things to happen, and other mages like her can be possessed and not be mad killing machines of insanity.
I would argue that the templars tolerance for good and benevolent spirits (
aka spirits who have no interest in mortals at all) have been nonexistent from the beginning. Three codex entries make it very clear.
The Four Schools of Magic: Spirit
And the voice of the Maker shook the Fade
Saying: In My image I have wrought
My firstborn. You have been given dominion
Over all that exists. By your will
All things are done.
Yet you do nothing.
The realm I have given you
Is formless, ever-changing.
--Threnodies 5:4.
The first of the two Schools of Energy, Spirit is opposed by the
Primal School. It is the school of mystery, the ephemeral school. This
is the study of the invisible energies which surround us at all times,
yet are outside of nature. It is from the Fade itself that this magic
draws its power. Students of this school cover everything from direct
manipulation of mana and spell energies to the study and summoning of
spirits themselves.
By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually
nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood
by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate
fate for a most useful branch of study.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.
This codex entry makes it clear that this school, which is perfectly ratified by the Circle, is often mistaken for blood magic. One good example of that is the animate dead spell. In DA2, we see blood mages reanimate dead frequently, and it was often seen as a sign of a mage practicing blood magic, but my Amell Warden used the Animate Dead Spell frequently. It was a personal favorite, and I was an arcane warrior/shape-shifter. Then Keeper in Awakening. This shows us that some spells typically associated with blood magic....isn't.
"But Dragon," you may say, "It never mentions Templars." And you would be correct. And that leads me to the next codex entry. Well, not a codex entry specifically, but it is a specialization description The Spirit Healer one, to be exact.
Spirt Healer
Spirit healers
focus on restoration, not destruction. They know that the best way to
win a battle is to keep themselves and their allies in the fight as long
as possible. They are the mages most likely to be accepted—or at least
tolerated—by common people, and yet templars fear them as much or more
than the damage-focused specializations. No other mages so directly draw
their power from the beneficial spirits of the Fade. It's a risk, but
the rewards are undeniable. Removing injuries, granting resilience to
wounds, even rescuing comrades from the brink of death—these are not
support abilities, they are the core of any effective party. Any fool
can cause harm, but no amount of muscle can make a weapon heal.
Now this tells us that templars fear and dislike Spirit Healers like Wynne far more than say...a battle mage, or a force mage. Simply because spirit healers are in closer proximity to the Fade than most mages, thereby increasing the danger of becoming abominations....and which realm does the school of spirit study? Why the Fade, the very thing whose proximity to spirit healers that puts templars on edge, according to this description.
And there are some people who commune with the spirits of the Fade, and have never been mages at all, and gained their blessing. And those people lead me to my next specialization description.
Spirit Warriors
Although spirit warriors employ magical abilities, they are not mages; instead, they flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world. Naturally, the Chantry's templars rarely acknowledge that distinction.
This tells us straight out that these mortals (and quite possible, very large idiots) who flirt with spirits of the Fade, allowing them glimpses of our world, are often rarely acknowledged as non-mages by templars.
These three different sources show us, when combined together and with what we know from in-game and the novels, that the templars and the chantry only barely tolerate magic as is (a fact Duncan says quite clearly in the mage origin) over a decade before the tensions started to build to revolutionary levels (literally.)
It's quite likely that from this point on, the templars and seekers will probably execute anyone with any connection to the fade at all, regardless of how much good they provide others.
Now, I'm going to respond to the last line of yours, or paragraph, and I'm repeating it just to make sure we're clear here.
Realistically speaking, perhaps the Seers are very helpful but we do
know; and after DA2 Thedas also knows; that human emotions can easily
corrupt a spirit. Meaning that Seers are extremely dangerous. Seers are
not born possessed and they do not need to be possessed in order to be
alive. Therefore, the templars did not punish people for what they are
but rather for what they did.
If we can't even ask mages to not be possessed because we'll offend their cultural sensitivities, what rules can we extablish?
Seriously? Templars and seekers punish them for what they've done?
A seeker saw that some mages in Rivain were in contact with their family, so every single mage there was killed. Anders blew up the Chantry, Meredith ignores him and orders a Rite of Annulment on the entire circle that wasn't involved at all, and her only justification is that the people will demand blood.
How can you say that templars and seekers only punish those for what they've done when we have two very clear moments of genocide (or attempted genocide in Kirkwall if you side with the mages) when in both cases, the mages were punished whole-sale for crimes most of them had nothing to do with.
Mages are locked up for being what they are, and put in an environment where they have little to no privacy, absolutely no control over their lives, are not allowed to marry for the most-part, and their children are confiscated at birth as Chantry property, simply because mages aren't allowed to have families in the Chantry, as enforced by the templars.
And we do know that a mages emotions can possibly corrupt a spirit. But if this is the case, wouldn't the opposite also be possible?
As for what rules we can establish, rules would have to be made for the templars just as much as the mages, as well as a a way to enforce them, and very set consequences for if they're broken.
The problem with the chantry and the templars is that there may be rules that dictate how well they can treat mages, but if there are no consquences to those rules, or if they're not enforced, there might as well not be any rules to begin with. People follow rules for one of two reasons. The first, and most largely followed one, is that people fear the consequences of breaking the rules. The second, is that people genuinely believe those rules exist for a reason and follow them, not out of fear of the consequences, but out of belief in what it stands for.
Take away the consequences, you may as well take away the rule, and then most people won't worry about breaking it as they'll know the most they'll get is a slap on the wrist.
I'll make you a deal. You make up a list of rules AND consequences for the templars and the seekers, as well as how to enforce them, and I'll do the same with the mages, and then we'll compare notes and see what we think of each other's ideas.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 27 août 2013 - 04:59 .
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