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[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anyone who hunts for Wyverns needs to be trained in hunting and have a chance at succeeding, otherwise the nobles get no credit for capturing or killing one. Not everyone who works for an Orlesian noble is a virtual slave. The inequality gap between the higher and lower classes is much greater in the Imperium as well. Two codex entries mention it.

How about what the Imperium did to Arlathan? It's worse than what the Orlesians did to Ferelden and the Dales combined. The Imperium once spread across almost all of Thedas in it's glory days, as such any examples of expansionism Orlais has in it's history will be less than Tevinter's.

Orlais is just like Tevinter in being corrupt,the difference is in Tevinter the nobles are mages and they don't try to hide their corruption like Orlais does.

^This and some of those Orleisien nobles are secretly mages.  And Noble have a habit of having sercet slaves.

[cjones91]

leaguer of one wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anyone who hunts for Wyverns needs to be trained in hunting and have a chance at succeeding, otherwise the nobles get no credit for capturing or killing one. Not everyone who works for an Orlesian noble is a virtual slave. The inequality gap between the higher and lower classes is much greater in the Imperium as well. Two codex entries mention it.

How about what the Imperium did to Arlathan? It's worse than what the Orlesians did to Ferelden and the Dales combined. The Imperium once spread across almost all of Thedas in it's glory days, as such any examples of expansionism Orlais has in it's history will be less than Tevinter's.

Orlais is just like Tevinter in being corrupt,the difference is in Tevinter the nobles are mages and they don't try to hide their corruption like Orlais does.

^This and some of those Orleisien nobles are secretly mages.  And Noble have a habit of having sercet slaves.

Don't forget that young elven girls have it worse as shown with Fiona.They are sold as sex slaves and are raped repeatedly with no one giving a damn,even some of the human women have chevaliars trying to rape them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes they were very trained in mota.
Why worse killing and raping fereldens by orlesians is better than killing elves by tevinter?
Well good to know even considering that what happened to arlathan isn't known and they don't even know nothing about it.

And not every tevinter slave is beaten and tortured by magister depends on magister like depends on orlesian noble hmm?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Surprised this ain't closed yet.

Why they should close that we don;t even got hostile to each other only discussing.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Don't forget that young elven girls have it worse as shown with Fiona.They are sold as sex slaves and are raped repeatedly with no one giving a damn,even some of the human women have chevaliars trying to rape them.

Seriously? I mean, we see one elf being kept as a slave in Orlais and, suddenly, slavery and Orlais are inseperable?
Because of one noble?

Tell you what, I can find you Isabela remarking in one of the comics how "orlesians hang slavers"; I can find you the wiki telling us how the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne; I can even find you a bard of Orlais telling us how there is no slavery in Orlais.
That's three vs one. Your turn.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Don't forget that young elven girls have it worse as shown with Fiona.They are sold as sex slaves and are raped repeatedly with no one giving a damn,even some of the human women have chevaliars trying to rape them.

Seriously? I mean, we see one elf being kept as a slave in Orlais and, suddenly, slavery and Orlais are inseperable?
Because of one noble?

Tell you what, I can find you Isabela remarking in one of the comics how "orlesians hang slavers"; I can find you the wiki telling us how the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne; I can even find you a bard of Orlais telling us how there is no slavery in Orlais.
That's three vs one. Your turn.

Even in real life people hid their slaves,are you so naive as to think slavery does'nt exist in Orlais?I bet there are plenty of sick nobles who love having young elven girls to rape when they feel like it and they keep the elves in hidden rooms.Leliana when called out stumbles and says"Well...it's not technically having slaves" so the Orlesians just use a different word for slavery.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Don't forget that young elven girls have it worse as shown with Fiona.They are sold as sex slaves and are raped repeatedly with no one giving a damn,even some of the human women have chevaliars trying to rape them.

Seriously? I mean, we see one elf being kept as a slave in Orlais and, suddenly, slavery and Orlais are inseperable?
Because of one noble?

Tell you what, I can find you Isabela remarking in one of the comics how "orlesians hang slavers"; I can find you the wiki telling us how the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne; I can even find you a bard of Orlais telling us how there is no slavery in Orlais.
That's three vs one. Your turn.

It's not just one noble. It's implied that many do so in secret dispite the law and get away with it because they are nobles.
And owning slave is not the same as slaver that capture people for profit.

[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Don't forget that young elven girls have it worse as shown with Fiona.They are sold as sex slaves and are raped repeatedly with no one giving a damn,even some of the human women have chevaliars trying to rape them.

Seriously? I mean, we see one elf being kept as a slave in Orlais and, suddenly, slavery and Orlais are inseperable?
Because of one noble?

Tell you what, I can find you Isabela remarking in one of the comics how "orlesians hang slavers"; I can find you the wiki telling us how the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne; I can even find you a bard of Orlais telling us how there is no slavery in Orlais.
That's three vs one. Your turn.

Even in real life people hid their slaves,are you so naive as to think slavery does'nt exist in Orlais?I bet there are plenty of sick nobles who love having young elven girls to rape when they feel like it and they keep the elves in hidden rooms.Leliana when called out stumbles and says"Well...it's not technically having slaves" so the Orlesians just use a different word for slavery.

In Orlais Cavalers can even legally rape women.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes they were very trained in mota.
Why worse killing and raping fereldens by orlesians is better than killing elves by tevinter?
Well good to know even considering that what happened to arlathan isn't known and they don't even know nothing about it.

And not every tevinter slave is beaten and tortured by magister depends on magister like depends on orlesian noble hmm?

The damage done to Elvhen people and culture with the fall of Arlthan and 800 years of brutal slavery is incalculable and irreparable. The damange done to Ferelden after 55 years of Orlesian occupation is not. The elves will never be the same.

The Wyvern Hunt we saw in MotA was full of different people, including some nobles. I can't recall any terrified slaves hurled into a meat grinder.

cjones91 wrote...

Even in real life people hid their slaves,are you so naive as to think slavery does'nt exist in Orlais?I bet there are plenty of sick nobles who love having young elven girls to rape when they feel like it and they keep the elves in hidden rooms.Leliana when called out stumbles and says"Well...it's not technically having slaves" so the Orlesians just use a different word for slavery.

Yeah some people do keep slaves in real life. That doesn't mean it's the same now as it was in the 19th cenutry. In Orlais it's the dirty little secret of some nobles. In Tevinter it's so pervaisive that the state would collapse without it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 août 2013 - 01:34 .

[Shadow Fox]

Seriously?Someone's DEFENDING Tevinter?!?

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Seriously?Someone's DEFENDING Tevinter?!?

No,just pointing out that Orlais and Tevinter aren't that different.

[leaguer of one]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Seriously?Someone's DEFENDING Tevinter?!?

No, more like he's saying Orlais is not better.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Don't forget that young elven girls have it worse as shown with Fiona.They are sold as sex slaves and are raped repeatedly with no one giving a damn,even some of the human women have chevaliars trying to rape them.

Seriously? I mean, we see one elf being kept as a slave in Orlais and, suddenly, slavery and Orlais are inseperable?
Because of one noble?

Tell you what, I can find you Isabela remarking in one of the comics how "orlesians hang slavers"; I can find you the wiki telling us how the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne; I can even find you a bard of Orlais telling us how there is no slavery in Orlais.
That's three vs one. Your turn.

Even in real life people hid their slaves,are you so naive as to think slavery does'nt exist in Orlais?I bet there are plenty of sick nobles who love having young elven girls to rape when they feel like it and they keep the elves in hidden rooms.Leliana when called out stumbles and says"Well...it's not technically having slaves" so the Orlesians just use a different word for slavery.

So tevinter is automatically better? Where they kidnap people from other countries, beat, torture, brainwash, probably rape, than use them as cannon fodder or sacrifices or worse?

Seriously, if you're argueing that orlais is a bad place, go ahead. You are probably right. But what else is there that you are arguing that you need to also defend the notion that somehow, orlais has just bad a problem with slavery as tevinter does. That somehow, the sheer scale of people tevinter needs to enslave throughout thedas means nothing when comparing the two? That tevinter and orlais aren't different, despite the fact tevinter probably goes through more slaves in a year than orlais would an entire generation?

What is your stance? Why are you arguing these points?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 août 2013 - 02:09 .

[dragonflight288]

In my mind, the capacity for the abuse of power between Tevinter and Orlais is equal. And the abuse actually done is also equal. The difference is the tools used in that abuse. Tevinter has slaves and mages control everything and blood magic is rampant. Orlais has legal sex-slaves under another name, chevalier's are allowed to legally rape citizens, and the nobles playing the game are encouraged to backstab, lie, betray and cheat the system if it advances themselves forward as part of their culture. And is in bed with the dominant religion, and used them frequently throughout history to help advance the empire.

Neither one is better or worse than the other. They are both empires, and like any empire, there is a great deal of corruption of varying degrees and forms. People who protest Orlais more than Tevinter may have more problems with the legal raping of women, sex-slaves and how intertwined the Chantry and the Government is. Those who oppose Tevinter pretty much just oppose mages being in control, slavery and blood magic, and the abuse that comes with it.

I see them both abhorrent. I don't compare to countries as better or worse forms of tyranny or corruption. They either are corrupt, or they are not.

Ferelden's not innocent either. It's got it's share of corruption too.

Point out Tevinter's flaws and say how they're the worse, someone else will point out Orlais and the Chantry's faults that Tevinter doesn't have, and say "At least Tevinter doesn't do this." Then the first will say "I can't believe you're defending Tevinter and it's ways," and the the second will respond "And you're ignoring Orlais and the Chantry's corruption and abuse of power in favor of the one you fear more."

I say "they both suck."

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Even in real life people hid their slaves,are you so naive as to think slavery does'nt exist in Orlais?I bet there are plenty of sick nobles who love having young elven girls to rape when they feel like it and they keep the elves in hidden rooms.Leliana when called out stumbles and says"Well...it's not technically having slaves" so the Orlesians just use a different word for slavery.

It is not naivety but knowledge of the game that leads me to believe so. That some nobles abuse their stations is something I can readily believe but if you are going to claim that Orlais is just as bad as Tevinter then you need some actual evidence; not just one case and then "I bet".

Oh and Leline admitted that there was inherent racism in seeing elves as servants, not that there was slavery in Orlais. Racism does not equal slavery.

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 août 2013 - 02:27 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

@dragonflight288

1. You say that like rape doesn;t happen in tevinter, or that magisters wouldn't be allowed to rape.

2. I don't hate them because of them being mages. I hate them because they enslave people from across thedas to be used as walking batteries for their power, and engage in horrible practices like wiping out peoples memories to make them more docile. So that even the slim chance they might have escaped or been rescued, is not a completely moot point. Though I do suppose that would fall under the blanket term of "abuse".

3. I find the fact that the scale of lives lost in tevinter compared to orlais to make any sort of argument that they are both the same in levels of horribleness nothing more than false equivalency.

Tevinter is worse, empirically, it is worse. It's not hundreds of miles worse than orlais, nor is orlais a perfect or good system by that exchange, they both suck. But, the fact remains that the scale and scope of the slavery in tevinter, and the fact that their practice doesn't just ruin the lives of the domestic citizens there, but the lives of the countless citizens of thedas whose family members have been whisked away to forever rot in their service, makes them worse.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 août 2013 - 02:32 .

[Texhnolyze101]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

@dragonflight288

1. You say that like rape doesn;t happen in tevinter, or that magisters wouldn't be allowed to rape.

2. I don't hate them because of them being mages. I hate them because they enslave people from across thedas to be used as walking batteries for their power, and engage in horrible practices like wiping out peoples memories to make them more docile. So that even the slim chance they might have escaped or been rescued, is not a completely moot point. Though I do suppose that would fall under the blanket term of "abuse".

3. I find the fact that the scale of lives lost in tevinter compared to orlais to make any sort of argument that they are both the same in levels of horribleness nothing more than false equivalency.

Tevinter is worse, empirically, it is worse. It's not hundreds of miles worse than orlais, nor is orlais a perfect or good system by that exchange, they both suck. But, the fact remains that the scale and scope of the slavery in tevinter, and the fact that their practice doesn't just ruin the lives of the domestic citizens there, but the lives of the countless citizens of thedas whose family members have been whisked away to forever rot in their service, makes them worse.

Would you be up for a reform in which Tevinter no longer uses slaves but tries something else to maintain there empire?

[Cainhurst Crow]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

@dragonflight288

1. You say that like rape doesn;t happen in tevinter, or that magisters wouldn't be allowed to rape.

2. I don't hate them because of them being mages. I hate them because they enslave people from across thedas to be used as walking batteries for their power, and engage in horrible practices like wiping out peoples memories to make them more docile. So that even the slim chance they might have escaped or been rescued, is not a completely moot point. Though I do suppose that would fall under the blanket term of "abuse".

3. I find the fact that the scale of lives lost in tevinter compared to orlais to make any sort of argument that they are both the same in levels of horribleness nothing more than false equivalency.

Tevinter is worse, empirically, it is worse. It's not hundreds of miles worse than orlais, nor is orlais a perfect or good system by that exchange, they both suck. But, the fact remains that the scale and scope of the slavery in tevinter, and the fact that their practice doesn't just ruin the lives of the domestic citizens there, but the lives of the countless citizens of thedas whose family members have been whisked away to forever rot in their service, makes them worse.

Would you be up for a reform in which Tevinter no longer uses slaves but tries something else to maintain there empire?

I would personally like a revolutionist or reformist person from tevinter in DAI. Someone who aknowledges the problems and wants to reform tevinter into a fairer, more equal society.

Personally, I think tevinter could use a good overhauling on it's laws and a list of rights for slaves, or an outright abolition of slavery to occur.

But I like to also remember that dragon age is a setting where things are hard to change, and so aknowledge that nay changes I make would, at best, be short termed and probably end up getting overturned when the new archon gets in charge, if not sooner. Or the reformist character I mentioned ends up failing and dead, fighting what was a hopless battle for change.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tragically I get the impression that Tevinter's system is largely resistant to attempts to reform it. Thte Archon who outlawed slavery was immediantely assassinated and any magister who doesn't resort to the ruthless measures of the others usually can't survive in the power struggles. Hesserion's was the most successful and most of his changes were undone within a few generations.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 août 2013 - 03:28 .

[DPSSOC]

Barquiel wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
No but it is a hopelessly corrupt magocracy where the entire ruling class brutally dominates the lower classes with impunity.

I don't see how semi-autonomous circles without Chantry and templar oversight automatically lead to a magocracy.

Because those mages who want to establish a magocracy have literally no one to stop them except other mages.  These kinds of situations are when you get a lot of, "I don't condone this but I do benefit from it so I'll say/do nothing."  Heck most of the time it just needs to be, "but it's not my problem"

Barquiel wrote...
My point is that we don't need a powerful templar order to prevent mages from turning into abominations. Tevinter, for all its horrors, isn't overrun by demons -> mages can police themselves...and do so outside the Chantry.

No they cover up themselves.  I'm assuming you're referring to the mage collective but remember they send you after one group of blood mages, not because of what they're doing, but because they're attracting too much attention.  We've seen at least twice in game that mages, given any kind of choice in the matter, will not police themselves.

[Texhnolyze101]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

@dragonflight288

1. You say that like rape doesn;t happen in tevinter, or that magisters wouldn't be allowed to rape.

2. I don't hate them because of them being mages. I hate them because they enslave people from across thedas to be used as walking batteries for their power, and engage in horrible practices like wiping out peoples memories to make them more docile. So that even the slim chance they might have escaped or been rescued, is not a completely moot point. Though I do suppose that would fall under the blanket term of "abuse".

3. I find the fact that the scale of lives lost in tevinter compared to orlais to make any sort of argument that they are both the same in levels of horribleness nothing more than false equivalency.

Tevinter is worse, empirically, it is worse. It's not hundreds of miles worse than orlais, nor is orlais a perfect or good system by that exchange, they both suck. But, the fact remains that the scale and scope of the slavery in tevinter, and the fact that their practice doesn't just ruin the lives of the domestic citizens there, but the lives of the countless citizens of thedas whose family members have been whisked away to forever rot in their service, makes them worse.

Would you be up for a reform in which Tevinter no longer uses slaves but tries something else to maintain there empire?

I would personally like a revolutionist or reformist person from tevinter in DAI. Someone who aknowledges the problems and wants to reform tevinter into a fairer, more equal society.

Personally, I think tevinter could use a good overhauling on it's laws and a list of rights for slaves, or an outright abolition of slavery to occur.

But I like to also remember that dragon age is a setting where things are hard to change, and so aknowledge that nay changes I make would, at best, be short termed and probably end up getting overturned when the new archon gets in charge, if not sooner. Or the reformist character I mentioned ends up failing and dead, fighting what was a hopless battle for change.

I agree with your post and I to hope for something like this in DA:I and i hope that one day Tevinter won't be such isolationist and ally with a few countries like the andefels or something. I'm just so sick and tired of people picking on them and really want them to be apart of the DA setting like ferelden and not just seen as monsters.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Imperium is hated by all other nations, but the Anders especially have despised the Tevinters ever since the Imperium abandoned them in the Second Blight, they're probably the least likely to ally with each other unless there's another Blight or Qunari invasion.

The Imperium's culture stands apart from the rest of the nations of Thedas. That's part of the reason.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 août 2013 - 03:35 .

[Texhnolyze101]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Imperium is hated by all other nations, but the Anders especially have despised the Tevinters ever since the Imperium abandoned them in the Second Blight, they're probably the least likely to ally with each other unless there's another Blight or Qunari invasion.

The Imperium's culture stands apart from the rest of the nations of Thedas. That's part of the reason.

The Tevinter Imperium has a very  good reason for abandoning them during the second blight.

Modifié par 101ezylonhxeT, 28 août 2013 - 05:26 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Imperium is hated by all other nations, but the Anders especially have despised the Tevinters ever since the Imperium abandoned them in the Second Blight, they're probably the least likely to ally with each other unless there's another Blight or Qunari invasion.

The Imperium's culture stands apart from the rest of the nations of Thedas. That's part of the reason.

The Tevinter Imperium has a very  good reason for abandoning them during the second blight.

Do I smell mainquest peace brokering/winner take all battle?

[Texhnolyze101]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Imperium is hated by all other nations, but the Anders especially have despised the Tevinters ever since the Imperium abandoned them in the Second Blight, they're probably the least likely to ally with each other unless there's another Blight or Qunari invasion.

The Imperium's culture stands apart from the rest of the nations of Thedas. That's part of the reason.

The Tevinter Imperium has a very  good reason for abandoning them during the second blight.

Do I smell mainquest peace brokering/winner take all battle?

They did it to protect themselves from being overrun by the darkspawn so had they not abandoned the anderfels there probably wouldn't be a Tevinter Imperium today.