1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So being a servant of a magister proves that elves can rise to power in Tevinter but being the spymaster of THE EMPRESS is proof that elves can't rise to power in Orlais? What?

You do realize that there are alienages in Tevinter too right? And seeing as that elf was not a mage, she's not going to rise far. Non-mages are not allowed to rise into positions of power. You think that that one elf is typical of elves experience in Tevinter? Half their slaves are elves. But this is an improvemnet on the ancient days when they were all slaves. Tevinter is racist. Racism against elves pretty much started in the Imperium.

If you're using her loyalty as an example of why elves love it it Tevinter I can pretty much guarantee that more elves are loyal to the Qun than Tevinter.

Killing elves in Orlais or Ferelden happens much less often than in the Imperium because Tevinter blood mages have more motivation to hurt or kill them. You act as nobles in Orlais are somehow more prone to abuse the lowers classes than Magisters.

I'm not arguing that elves and other downtrodden don't have it bad in Orlais. I'm aruging they have it worse in Tevinter.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 août 2013 - 09:36 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

What is spymaster you are out of society criminal empress even probably doesn't even admit that she works for her it is difference when you belong to society than you are secret assassin who can't even to admit who she is because met with contempt.

But still she commands it is clear that no one will listen elf except perhaps grey wardens who aren't belong to any society and needs any wardens.

I don't say that elves love tevinter because elf may be weak so will be no one as well weak human i said that elf have chance become someone in society and even command how many times i have to repeat might make right but you still ignore that.

"I'm aruging they have it worse in Tevinter."
In tevinter weaker have worse stronger better it is not your race decide about that only strength

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 août 2013 - 09:43 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She's the Empress' handmaiden. The it's even saying she uses her position and influence to improve the lives of elves in Orlais. Clearly she has a position of importance.

The elf you mentioned isn't that important. She's just a thug for a magister. She openly calls herself a servant. And the example I mentioned proves that elves can rise to important positions in Orlais too if they find a way to be useful in the system. In fact I'd say that the elf I mentioned is much more influential than the one in you did. Besides, it's really beside the point if elves in general are still worse off. Which they are in Tevinter, becuase more of them are slaves. Humans and elves are not equal in social standing. We've seen more examples of impoverished elves from the imperium.

http://www.tor.com/b...r-patrick-weeks

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 août 2013 - 09:58 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

"she uses her position and influence to improve the lives of elves in Orlais."

that may mean that she is close to empress and try improve elves life affecting on her is he something more than cleaner officially?I heard she is/was her lover.

Besides what with elven mages (if strong) in tevinter they are treated that same or better because they are stronger?

"becuase more of them are slaves" as well as most of them live in alienage in orlais well always you can escape that always better than tevinter but their treatment not so much better

Tevinter supports one group of peoples and orlais supports another group of peoples.And no everyone is slave they are soporati...

" All common citizens of the Imperium who are non-mages are considered part of the Soporati social class. This is a mainly human class which is allowed to own property and serve in Tevinter's military but they have no real power in the nation's governance and are unable to attain a higher rank in the Imperial Chantry than mother or father.

So non-mages aren't slave class.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never said all non mages are slaves. I said they are not allowed to rise to any power. But the quote you provided pretty much says that Tevinter is racist. Soporati are the highest non mage class. And it says they are "overwhelmingly human" which means Tevinter's elves are almost all lower classes than that.

Elven Mages are considered mages first. They get the benefit of being a mage first rather than the drawbacks of being an elf. Tevinter society maybe be racist against elves, but it's more mage supremacist.

[TheKomandorShepard]

"I said they are not allowed to rise to
any power "
any power and political power are two things my friend

"Soporati are the highest non mage class."

ehh might makes right? you can be mage and be slave...

"Elven Mages are considered mages first. They get the benefit of being a
mage first rather than the drawbacks of being an elf. Tevinter society
maybe be racist against elves, but it's more mage supremacist.""

So still elves had chance and even command if you are non mage?

[Shadow Fox]

*eats popcorn*

[TheKomandorShepard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

*eats popcorn*

you know eating so much popcorn isn't very healthy.

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

*eats popcorn*

you know eating so much popcorn isn't very healthy.

*orders a pizza*

[naes1984]

Yes. Of course they are equivalent: Ill-thought out retconned garbage shoved in because the game needs a mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction instead of an external threat. Story consistency and logic be damned. If this means magically bestowing Cerberus unlimited resources (to be all places at all times) or ignoring 50 hours of slaughtering countless blood mages in Kirkwall then so be it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Cerberus and Templars = bad guys. We're going to make them the big bad guys. La. La. La. We will make them fit even if there's absurd retconning is involved. I'd say that the two look very similar in that they started off as a small, interesting factions of the larger game world and were ridiculously inflated into something they were clearly never intended to be. Sorry but I just got done replaying DA2, and I'm stunned by how bad it is from every possible perspective.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

*eats popcorn*

you know eating so much popcorn isn't very healthy.

*orders a pizza*

*does same*

[TheKomandorShepard]

naes1984 wrote...

Yes. Of course they are equivalent: Ill-thought out retconned garbage shoved in because the game needs a mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction instead of an external threat. Story consistency and logic be damned. If this means magically bestowing Cerberus unlimited resources (to be all places at all times) or ignoring 50 hours of slaughtering countless blood mages in Kirkwall then so be it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Cerberus and Templars = bad guys. We're going to make them the big bad guys. La. La. La. We will make them fit even if there's absurd retconning is involved. I'd say that the two look very similar in that they started off as a small, interesting factions of the larger game world and were ridiculously inflated into something they were clearly never intended to be. Sorry but I just got done replaying DA2, and I'm stunned by how bad it is from every possible perspective.

Well almost every faction and country in thedas is "mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction" except perhaps ferelden and grey wardens (but they are now targeted so be aware ) they are grey

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 août 2013 - 11:48 .

[Ausstig]

I had always assumed that Tivinter was the mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction. Given that they have a lot of slaves, us evil magic and are just bad.

Although the Qun is worse. But the writer will never admit that.

[Merengues 1945]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Yes. Of course they are equivalent: Ill-thought out retconned garbage shoved in because the game needs a mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction instead of an external threat. Story consistency and logic be damned. If this means magically bestowing Cerberus unlimited resources (to be all places at all times) or ignoring 50 hours of slaughtering countless blood mages in Kirkwall then so be it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Cerberus and Templars = bad guys. We're going to make them the big bad guys. La. La. La. We will make them fit even if there's absurd retconning is involved. I'd say that the two look very similar in that they started off as a small, interesting factions of the larger game world and were ridiculously inflated into something they were clearly never intended to be. Sorry but I just got done replaying DA2, and I'm stunned by how bad it is from every possible perspective.

Well almost every faction and country in thedas is "mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction" except perhaps ferelden and grey wardens (but they are now targeted so be aware ) they are grey

Yup, there's a lot of evil lots, pretty much everywhere... The magisters on Tevinter who brought the darkspawn into the world. The Qunari trying to shove their religion into everyones as*es. The Orlesians and their rotted cores that kinda invite to wish some sort of french revolution thingy to behead every chevallier. There's even evil dalish and mad grey wardens.... Templars are just the ones present everywhere, altough they weren't that bad in Ferelden.

I don't know, but I don't see the templars cerberus-like... They lack a charismatic leader, Meredith who was mad like TIM lacked the charm to be such leader. There's a lot of division between them, theres good guys and bad guys, not only a bunch of brainwashed zombies, so they're not as effective. And well, they kinda have a point, magic can be dangerous and needs to be kept in check, while cerberus post-suicide mission is just bananas.

In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Merengues 1945 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Yes. Of course they are equivalent: Ill-thought out retconned garbage shoved in because the game needs a mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction instead of an external threat. Story consistency and logic be damned. If this means magically bestowing Cerberus unlimited resources (to be all places at all times) or ignoring 50 hours of slaughtering countless blood mages in Kirkwall then so be it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Cerberus and Templars = bad guys. We're going to make them the big bad guys. La. La. La. We will make them fit even if there's absurd retconning is involved. I'd say that the two look very similar in that they started off as a small, interesting factions of the larger game world and were ridiculously inflated into something they were clearly never intended to be. Sorry but I just got done replaying DA2, and I'm stunned by how bad it is from every possible perspective.

Well almost every faction and country in thedas is "mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction" except perhaps ferelden and grey wardens (but they are now targeted so be aware ) they are grey

Yup, there's a lot of evil lots, pretty much everywhere... The magisters on Tevinter who brought the darkspawn into the world. The Qunari trying to shove their religion into everyones as*es. The Orlesians and their rotted cores that kinda invite to wish some sort of french revolution thingy to behead every chevallier. There's even evil dalish and mad grey wardens.... Templars are just the ones present everywhere, altough they weren't that bad in Ferelden.

I don't know, but I don't see the templars cerberus-like... They lack a charismatic leader, Meredith who was mad like TIM lacked the charm to be such leader. There's a lot of division between them, theres good guys and bad guys, not only a bunch of brainwashed zombies, so they're not as effective. And well, they kinda have a point, magic can be dangerous and needs to be kept in check, while cerberus post-suicide mission is just bananas.

In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 août 2013 - 01:15 .

[Merengues 1945]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Yes. Of course they are equivalent: Ill-thought out retconned garbage shoved in because the game needs a mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction instead of an external threat. Story consistency and logic be damned. If this means magically bestowing Cerberus unlimited resources (to be all places at all times) or ignoring 50 hours of slaughtering countless blood mages in Kirkwall then so be it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Cerberus and Templars = bad guys. We're going to make them the big bad guys. La. La. La. We will make them fit even if there's absurd retconning is involved. I'd say that the two look very similar in that they started off as a small, interesting factions of the larger game world and were ridiculously inflated into something they were clearly never intended to be. Sorry but I just got done replaying DA2, and I'm stunned by how bad it is from every possible perspective.

Well almost every faction and country in thedas is "mustache-twirling intolerant eviiiiiil faction" except perhaps ferelden and grey wardens (but they are now targeted so be aware ) they are grey

Yup, there's a lot of evil lots, pretty much everywhere... The magisters on Tevinter who brought the darkspawn into the world. The Qunari trying to shove their religion into everyones as*es. The Orlesians and their rotted cores that kinda invite to wish some sort of french revolution thingy to behead every chevallier. There's even evil dalish and mad grey wardens.... Templars are just the ones present everywhere, altough they weren't that bad in Ferelden.

I don't know, but I don't see the templars cerberus-like... They lack a charismatic leader, Meredith who was mad like TIM lacked the charm to be such leader. There's a lot of division between them, theres good guys and bad guys, not only a bunch of brainwashed zombies, so they're not as effective. And well, they kinda have a point, magic can be dangerous and needs to be kept in check, while cerberus post-suicide mission is just bananas.

In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

Well, the Ferelden's Government seems kinda good... The power rises from the landsmeet and not directly from the king, sure, there's some bad guys, but like most fereldens they are just trying to make a decent living... the only bad think it's that they smell like wet dog.

[DPSSOC]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...
In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

I think you miss the point of dark fantasy friend.  High fantasy is where you get the clear lines of good and evil, those nice neat distinctions where there is an absolute measure of right and wrong.  It's like Superman -> clearly good hero vs clearly evil villains.  Dark fantasy you have bad guys and, at best, better guys, which is determined solely based on how their goals line up with yours.  This is more like Batman, where he's not really good, but he's better, from the perspective of the law abiding citizens of Gotham, than the people he's beating up so that makes him a hero.

More simply High Fantasy deals in absolutes, Dark Fantasy deals in relativities.

[Merengues 1945]

DPSSOC wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...
In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

I think you miss the point of dark fantasy friend.  High fantasy is where you get the clear lines of good and evil, those nice neat distinctions where there is an absolute measure of right and wrong.  It's like Superman -> clearly good hero vs clearly evil villains.  Dark fantasy you have bad guys and, at best, better guys, which is determined solely based on how their goals line up with yours.  This is more like Batman, where he's not really good, but he's better, from the perspective of the law abiding citizens of Gotham, than the people he's beating up so that makes him a hero.

More simply High Fantasy deals in absolutes, Dark Fantasy deals in relativities.

Isn't High fantasy anything that takes place out of this world and deals on supernatural things? At least when I was young that was the definition of high fantasy. For example as far as I remember, A song of Ice and Fire it's high fantasy, and many of it's characters are ambiguous at best, for example there's Jamie who is better than many but worse than most. There's straight edge guys like Ned or Ser Barristan, Evil guys like Tywyn or Walder Frey and just lunatics like Cersei..... Arya, Jon, Danearys and Tyrion, every one of them it's ambiguous... So you can't say that High Fantasy deals strictely on absolutes... Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

But in the end, you're right, in the world theres no such thing as black or white, there's only grayscale. It would be boring without the crazy people like Meredith or Loghain.

[Shadow Fox]

DPSSOC wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...
In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

I think you miss the point of dark fantasy friend.  High fantasy is where you get the clear lines of good and evil, those nice neat distinctions where there is an absolute measure of right and wrong.  It's like Superman -> clearly good hero vs clearly evil villains.  Dark fantasy you have bad guys and, at best, better guys, which is determined solely based on how their goals line up with yours.  This is more like Batman, where he's not really good, but he's better, from the perspective of the law abiding citizens of Gotham, than the people he's beating up so that makes him a hero.

More simply High Fantasy deals in absolutes, Dark Fantasy deals in relativities.

Batman not good? pfft:lol:

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...
In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

I think you miss the point of dark fantasy friend.  High fantasy is where you get the clear lines of good and evil, those nice neat distinctions where there is an absolute measure of right and wrong.  It's like Superman -> clearly good hero vs clearly evil villains.  Dark fantasy you have bad guys and, at best, better guys, which is determined solely based on how their goals line up with yours.  This is more like Batman, where he's not really good, but he's better, from the perspective of the law abiding citizens of Gotham, than the people he's beating up so that makes him a hero.

More simply High Fantasy deals in absolutes, Dark Fantasy deals in relativities.

Batman not good? pfft:lol:

To be honest Batman is a Anti Hero and many villians point out how he's no different than them when it comes to being mentally ****ed up.

[TheKomandorShepard]

DPSSOC wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...
In the end, in thedas, only mabaris are reliable.

It would be nice find one at least one damn organisation which are good guys not grey at best even mages despite many of them are guys who want just to be left alone one after another they changed into psychopaths in da 2.I hope at least they will paint Nevarra in way like ferelden not  treated orlais or tevinter.

I think you miss the point of dark fantasy friend.  High fantasy is where you get the clear lines of good and evil, those nice neat distinctions where there is an absolute measure of right and wrong.  It's like Superman -> clearly good hero vs clearly evil villains.  Dark fantasy you have bad guys and, at best, better guys, which is determined solely based on how their goals line up with yours.  This is more like Batman, where he's not really good, but he's better, from the perspective of the law abiding citizens of Gotham, than the people he's beating up so that makes him a hero.

More simply High Fantasy deals in absolutes, Dark Fantasy deals in relativities.

i don't ask about every conflict or organisation white vs black morality i m asking about one decent organization saying that everyting is dark and evil is stupid like that everything is pure good it is like asking game where everyone is good or game where is everything is pure evil if it still keep coming with you are fuc*** no matter what you do i just loose intrest in game because why i should choose mages if 99 % of them still will becoming psychopats or abomations or templars where they are psychopatic rapists who will cause that same with 99 % mages turning into abomnation.
Conflict mages vs templars is idealism vs cynicism where templars thinks that if you let mage police temselfs = 5 second abomnation and mages think than they can police themselves
practically conflict will have no meaning if this will be cynical crapsack world because only sane option will be supporting templars and supporting mages will be lunatic version for suicides.

So if you will do that too idealistic only sane option will be mages because templars will be psychopats if too cynical only sane option will be templars because mages are atomic bombs. 

[Ausstig]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
 ..... because only sane option will be supporting templars and supporting mages will be lunatic version for suicides. 

.... only sane option will be templars because mages are atomic bombs. 

So your saying all mge supporters are insane? 
 You heard it here first. 

Any way, I would like the game to take ballenced view on the groups. A lot of grey, not dark grey, just that both have a ballence of good and bad parts.

BUT, I do not think this will happen. I feel from the evidince I have seen in DA2 and Asunder, that the writer has given up and does not care about a balenced view or shades of grey and simply said, "Fine people like the mages templars are now evil and the mages are good reguardless of past evidence or characterisation. 

[Icinix]

Game Informer is hopeless - their last piece on ME3 before ME3 came out had the game painted totally different to what it was.

Besides - pretty sure Game Informer also said that DA2 was gong to have you questioning blood magic or some such - but the game still made it out to be pretty evil across the board.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ausstig wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
 ..... because only sane option will be supporting templars and supporting mages will be lunatic version for suicides. 

.... only sane option will be templars because mages are atomic bombs. 

So your saying all mge supporters are insane? 
 You heard it here first. 

Any way, I would like the game to take ballenced view on the groups. A lot of grey, not dark grey, just that both have a ballence of good and bad parts.

BUT, I do not think this will happen. I feel from the evidince I have seen in DA2 and Asunder, that the writer has given up and does not care about a balenced view or shades of grey and simply said, "Fine people like the mages templars are now evil and the mages are good reguardless of past evidence or characterisation. 

depends on setting if setting is cynical idealist is wrong and blind if setting is idealistic then cynic is wrong and blind. Conflict is idealism vs cynism in cynical world templar will be right ,in idealistic mages in balanced setting both will be right and wrong , but at best we have gray vs gray morality and in da 2 it was pushed to darkest grey tone hell even into black morality because everyone was isnane ending with few decent peoples at best.
conflicts shouldn't be only in gray vs gray morality or grey vs black or black vs black morality because if you will overused that you will get very cynical setting on other hand if you will use white vs grey or white vs white and you will over use that you will get idealistic setting. Game conflicts should be different from two good sides fighting to when two bad guys fight with each other and allow protagonist to be everything from good guy , grey , or bad. 

And i don't say that cynical or idealistic settings are bad but if you intend do idealism vs cynicism conflict and you want them be equal and right you should balance your setting.