1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Ravensword wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Jayne126 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Jayne126 wrote...

Oh god.

Is that a good oh god or a bad one?

For the Reds? A bad one.

This could be Cerberus all over again.

Not really,I have a feeling the Red Templars are a more extremist splintergroup of the main Templar faction.

So how is that different from Cerberus

Yep, here we go with the bat crap crazy villains again.

More Saturday morning cartoon villains?

Seems more like the red templars are doing what most military forces who ended up out of work did back in medievil times.

Pillage and rape the countryside.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 01 septembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

AresKeith wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Looking at the Pax Prime footage again, I believe Mike referred to the Red Templars as "long term enemies." Mooks (unknowingly?) working for the big bad, perhaps?

So a splinter group addicted to Red Lyrium working for the Big Bad

I'd rather have them tie into the Red Lyrium plot line than the main one

You say that like they couldn't be one in the same.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

In Exile wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
No only two Templars were shown being distinctly monstrous. The rapist and the genocide lover was one guy. While every single mage we see becomes and abomination and even our own mage companions are lunatics. Anders murders possibly hundreds of innocent people in the Chantry. Doing more harm then the rape/genocide Templar ever did.  

Karras, if you let him live, raped Alain. Cullen is blatantly pro tranquil solution, and has his whole "mages aren't people like you and me" speech.  And I'm not going to get dragged into whether or not forcible lobotomies and rape is worse than murder. 

That 'genocide' that Cullen is taking part in was an annulment something that although not properly sanctioned by the Chantry is something that isn't considered evil but something that has happened multiple times throughout history. Heck we can even finish one in DA:O and it isn't considered evil at all. 

Okay, I'm not touchign this. If you think annulment isn't evil, good luck with that. 

I believe annulments are evil but what I'm saying is the 'world' doesn't see it as evil and doesn't go to show how the Templars are crazy because they are seen as necessary by the world of Thedas.

You can't deny that DA2 showed so many more instances of evil mage and they beat us over the head with how dangerous they are. The darker side of the Templar order was there don't get me wrong but it was never pushed as hard as the mage side was for the entire duration of the game.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I fully support there being a crazed splinter group of the templars. In fact, I would question the devs sanity if they hadn't made one, since we've already established that the templars aren't really some unified and synchronized order, but more a military organization without standardized rules and guildlines basically operating more on cultural norms than anything else. Having them suddenly unified with one voice and one mind and only 1 leader would seem really like a asspull in my opinion.

Same with the circles, each are different and have a different set standard. I hope we can see splinter groups of mages as well, ranging from circle loyalist, to dalish supporters, to tevinter converts, to out of their mind demon cults. Having demons and magic going ape**** should help matters as well.

I don't see where the chicken little attitude to this information is coming from to be honest. It's like showing templars as saintly lawful goodguys is more important than having them behave like a realistic group and have a them be a mixed bag of morality in their ranks.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 01 septembre 2013 - 04:10 .

[AresKeith]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Looking at the Pax Prime footage again, I believe Mike referred to the Red Templars as "long term enemies." Mooks (unknowingly?) working for the big bad, perhaps?

So a splinter group addicted to Red Lyrium working for the Big Bad

I'd rather have them tie into the Red Lyrium plot line than the main one

You say that like they couldn't be one in the same.

I mean by having the Red Templar work as mooks for the big bad

[Cainhurst Crow]

AresKeith wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Looking at the Pax Prime footage again, I believe Mike referred to the Red Templars as "long term enemies." Mooks (unknowingly?) working for the big bad, perhaps?

So a splinter group addicted to Red Lyrium working for the Big Bad

I'd rather have them tie into the Red Lyrium plot line than the main one

You say that like they couldn't be one in the same.

I mean by having the Red Templar work as mooks for the big bad

I would like for them to have some association with the big bad, such as the big bad showing them where to find red lyrium. I doubt they'll be the main villans direct soliders however. It just that red lyrium seems like a very important thing in the story, and it would be weird to just religate finding out about it to mere sidequest alone.

[dragonflight288]

I personally don't see the big deal here. Anyone with common sense would be able to see the negatives of rogue templars, and the more extremist factions would take far more extreme actions, and it seems like the Red Templars are that group. They'll be no different from the resolutionists or the tevinter magisters when it comes to mages. They'll be the extreme that portrays them in a serious negative light, and I'm sure many templars and Seekers, like Evangeline, Cassandra, and (possibly) Cullen, are going to be fare more moderate and much more likeable, whereas on the mage end you'll have to deal with hotheaded Fiona, and possibly some pretty extreme libertarians who you'll want to strangle for sheer stupidity....and Morrigan (ah, sweet, lovely, apostate Morrigan. *sigh*)

But all the news I'm hearing about this game has officially convinced me to pre-order it as soon as I can.

[rameneater]

Eh, its probably gonna be something stupid, like the head guy of the Red Templars trying to get into the black city, and become a god by going through the holes in the sky.

And they are trying to start a war between Fereldan, and Orlais so nobody notices.

And probably more organizations with dumb names that will help you out.

[Dave of Canada]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't see where the chicken little attitude to this information is coming from to be honest.

The exact same thing happened with Cerberus in ME3, information came out on them being the bad guy and everyone was like "WAIT, GIVE IT TIME" and constant leaks and information came out which only supported the pro-Cerberus poster's points which they made a year/months prior.

Hell, we had marketing flat-out insult anyone who was pro-Cerberus as being an idiot. We're cynical.

It's like showing templars as saintly lawful goodguys is more important than having them behave like a realistic group and have a them be a mixed bag of morality in their ranks.

Except no-one is asking for lawful good Templar, we're asking for conflict amongst the Templar rather than conviniently making all the "bad" Templar into insane murdering psycopaths which no-one could ever agree with because indoctrin- red lyrium!

Throwing all characterization into the garbage because you're trying to portray a faction with differing opinions is beyond stupid, Templar extremists should remain Templar and Blood Mages should remain with the mages. Seperating them into "rawr bad guys" is childish and stupid.

Just like what the writers did to Cerberus, just like they'll do to the Templar and just like they'll do with anyone when they try to be "morally ambiguous".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[MisterJB]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Well I suppose it's impossible to say for certain, but I don't know that there's only going to be one group of splinter templars.

Even if that's not the case though, sometimes factions have to be enemies of the PC. Seeing as they are repeatedly refering to in a way that makes them distinct from just "templars" it dosn't seem like the templars in general are going to be treated like Cerberus. And neither that mages automatically the good guys and templars are automatically bad.

I can thus assume that the rebellious mages will be portrayed as equally loathsome and only those who voted against the war and have since returned to the Chantry will be good, right? Right?

(wind blowing softly in the distance)

That's what I tought. I am perfectly content with extremist and violent templars so long as the same also applies to the mages. You can't tell me that, amongst the hundreds who have been freed, there are not a few who would rape and pillage; believe themselves superior to non-mages and thus be owed any type of services freely or simply resent non-mages and be more than willing to take some revenge.

Sadly some choices are always going to be restricted to a PC for the sake of the story but I cannot imagine they won't let the Inquisitor make a statment about how he or she feels the roles of mages and templars are.

We could do that regarding Cerberus in ME3. And it doesn't help, not in the sligthest.
If anything, it exacerbates the wound.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:15 .

[Dave of Canada]

MisterJB wrote...

We could do that regarding Cerberus in ME3. And it doesn't help, not in the sligthest.
If anything, it exacerbates the wound.

I thought we couldn't? Whenever Cerberus does something against the Reapers and everyone says it's a good idea, most dialogue options came up with "it's evil" or "no it's not".

[MisterJB]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

We could do that regarding Cerberus in ME3. And it doesn't help, not in the sligthest.
If anything, it exacerbates the wound.

I thought we couldn't? Whenever Cerberus does something against the Reapers and everyone says it's a good idea, most dialogue options came up with "it's evil" or "no it's not".

There were a few instances. I remember being able to defend Sanctuary against Joker with arguments such as "They were looking for a way to combat Indocrination...and they suceeded...If you could tell yourself that those refugees would all die anyway..."

[Dave of Canada]

Shame you were forced into insulting Sanctuary five-seconds earlier when Hackett talked about it being a good idea.

[MerchantGOL]

The comparison is poor, The templars in the past 2 games have proven to be competent.

[sandalisthemaker]

MerchantGOL wrote...

The comparison is poor, The templars in the past 2 games have proven to be competent.

This thread concerns their fate.
Will they become nothing more than an unsypathethic, irredeemable, evil faction that cannot be reasoned with, and which makes up a sizable chunk of the enemy horde (besides the demons).  

I don't personally care because I'm not pro-Templar, but I can see the points that some people are making about losing morally gray conflicts.  

[In Exile]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Throwing all characterization into the garbage because you're trying to portray a faction with differing opinions is beyond stupid, Templar extremists should remain Templar and Blood Mages should remain with the mages. Seperating them into "rawr bad guys" is childish and stupid.

Let's give Bioware credit here - they actually succeed in-game to portray the templars as reasonable, with the exception of Gregoire. Meredith.

Edit: Whoah, that was an incredible typo.  

Modifié par In Exile, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, obviously nobody here knows how the story is going to work but I can't believe there would be no equivalent of Red Templars at all among mages.

But I guess my perspective can't help though, because I was never in the camp that felt Cerberus in ME 3 was acting especially out of character, but that's a whole other topic.

One of the reasons I feel like it's unlikely that Templars will get the "Cerberus treatment" is that their role in the story is very different. Cerberus was first introduced as enemies of the PC. Even in the second game we are reminded they are still enemies of the "mainstream" civilized galaxy. The templars are neither of these things.

[Dave of Canada]

In Exile wrote...

Let's give Bioware credit here - they actually succeed in-game to portray the templars as reasonable, with the exception of Gregoire. 

They can hardly maintain it, though. They restort to **** parallels far too quickly, DA2 was borderline when it came to it.

[The Elder King]

I think there's a difference between templars and Cerberus. In ME3's development, Bioware devs never stated multiple times that yen conflict with Cerberus would've been a grey one. Instead, Darrah and Laidlaw stated multiple times that they don't want to force the player to choose between the mages and templars, that the conflict is morally grey, and that it's a matter of choosing between security and freedom (and neither is right or wrong).
So why I do think that it's right to be concerned (even though the fact that the faction shown was labeled differently implies that the RT aren't all the templar order that is at war), I don't think the templars will suffer the Cerberus treatment.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes, but even so the Templars' position in their respective universe and their overall relationship to the player (shown over the course of the multiple games) is different than Cerberus'.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:02 .

[In Exile]

Dave of Canada wrote...
They can hardly maintain it, though. They restort to **** parallels far too quickly, DA2 was borderline when it came to it.

They had people like Thrask, Carver's namesake and lower-rank people like Kieran. Karras is counterbalanced by Thrask when it comes to dealing with Grace. There were more bad apples than good in DA2, but DA:O had a generally reasonable touch to them. 

I mean, I still personally find the whoel system abhorent. But they weren't coo-coo for cocopuffs in DA:O. 

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
They can hardly maintain it, though. They restort to **** parallels far too quickly, DA2 was borderline when it came to it.

They had people like Thrask, Carver's namesake and lower-rank people like Kieran. Karras is counterbalanced by Thrask when it comes to dealing with Grace. There were more bad apples than good in DA2, but DA:O had a generally reasonable touch to them. 

I mean, I still personally find the whoel system abhorent. But they weren't coo-coo for cocopuffs in DA:O. 

True. I like to take Origins as a way to look at the whole system and look at reasonable mages and templars, since Kirkwall was full of extremes on every end of the spectrum.