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[billy the squid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

What?

My criticism and fear in regards to the Templars being dumbed down like Cerberus, might be a possibility in DAI now.

A faction may be, and there is already existing lore to support it, called lyrium withdrawal or lyrium addled when too much is used over an extended period of time, but I highly doubt every templar or seeker will be dumbed down like Cerberus.

Lore, my arse. Red Lyrium is the most demonstrably stupid plot mechanic alongside Indoctrination. It was there in ME1, but it was simply used as a hand wave in ME3 to dismiss the arbitrary behaviour, as with Red Lyrium in DA2.

Why's this chap acting crazy? Lyrium/ Indoctrination. It's lazy and bad writing. If people haven't noticed, people have done some horrible things throughout history without the need for magical rocks and space squid control. Although I believe cohesive thought is beyond BioWare at the moment when it comes to writing things unsupported by a crutch. 

[In Exile]

billy the squid wrote...
Why's this chap acting crazy? Lyrium/ Indoctrination. It's lazy and bad writing. If people haven't noticed, people have done some horrible things throughout history without the need for magical rocks and space squid control. Although I believe cohesive thought is beyond BioWare at the moment when it comes to writing things unsupported by a crutch. 

Indoctrination was used badly, but the idea of mind control as a weapon of war against a population is actually very good. Bioware just didn't play with it at all. 

[billy the squid]

In Exile wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Why's this chap acting crazy? Lyrium/ Indoctrination. It's lazy and bad writing. If people haven't noticed, people have done some horrible things throughout history without the need for magical rocks and space squid control. Although I believe cohesive thought is beyond BioWare at the moment when it comes to writing things unsupported by a crutch. 

Indoctrination was used badly, but the idea of mind control as a weapon of war against a population is actually very good. Bioware just didn't play with it at all. 

That's why I said it was used in ME1, I don't think anyone would believe it was badly used in ME1 with Saren, it made for a very interesting concept and added an extra element to Saren as a villain. ME3, they went to crazy town and it wasn't used as a facet of the character anymore, it was used as a way to prop up a shakey storyline.

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A faction may be, and there is already existing lore to support it, called lyrium withdrawal or lyrium addled when too much is used over an extended period of time, but I highly doubt every templar or seeker will be dumbed down like Cerberus.

But will they pull off the "Ex-Cerberus" angle from ME3? Turning everyone who believed in Cerberus into antagonists and the only "good" people being those who oppose them at every turn and isn't "true" Cerberus. Any companion who supported anything Cerberus suddenly admitting they were wrong all along.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[Mykel54]

I personally have no problems with the existence of red templars, if there are templars who must be enemies no matter what, then i am fine that those are the affected by red lyrium.

However i have to admit of being worried that Lambert´s group will become victims of the red lyrium too at some point of the game, so it would be Cerberus all over again.

[The Hierophant]

^That's a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if Justinia, and the Chantry are whitewashed while all of Thedas' current woes are solely blamed on the Templars.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

^That's a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if Justinia, and the Chantry are whitewashed while all of Thedas' current woes are solely blamed on the Templars.

What did Justinia do?

[The Hierophant]

@cjones91

She barely did anything for the mages until her seat of power was threatened, kind of like what most politicians do. The Templar being thrown under the bus doesn't change how the Chantry had a corrupting influence over the former Inquisition, while it had nearly a millenia to make reforms before things got critical.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

@cjones91

She barely did anything for the mages until her seat of power was threatened, kind of like what most politicians do. The Templar being thrown under the bus doesn't change how the Chantry had a corrupting influence over the former Inquisition, while it had nearly a millenia to make reforms before things got critical.

I don't agree,I believe Justinia had to fight hard for Mage reforms while dealing with hardliners like Lambert and the rest of the Chantry clergy.If Lambert had'nt done what he did then Justinia could have convinced the mages to work with her and reform the Circles.

[MisterJB]

If Adrian and Fiona hadn't done what they did, Lambert wouldn't have done what he did.

And even if Lambert's actions were misguided, that doesn't mean Justinia's decision to empower the mages to start a war was the correct one.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 septembre 2013 - 08:46 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A faction may be, and there is already existing lore to support it, called lyrium withdrawal or lyrium addled when too much is used over an extended period of time, but I highly doubt every templar or seeker will be dumbed down like Cerberus.

But will they pull off the "Ex-Cerberus" angle from ME3? Turning everyone who believed in Cerberus into antagonists and the only "good" people being those who oppose them at every turn and isn't "true" Cerberus. Any companion who supported anything Cerberus suddenly admitting they were wrong all along.

Well first of all, wouldn't the fact that they were called "Red" Templars and are new filled with crazy Red Lyrium golems in templar gear make the reverse true? As in Red Templars are no longer the true Templars and the others are? It's not like this is stuff known to be standard practice in the Templar Order, and with Cerberus the Illusive Man was the highest authority. True Cerberus is essentially whatever he says it is. With Dragon Age it's not so clear cut but in theory the Divine is the highest authority for templars, and whatever the Red Templar splinter faction is, it's rebelled against her at the very least. Second, there was more than one example of characters in ME 3 saying Cerberus was right in ME 2 but wrong now - EDI, Traynor, those two door guards.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 septembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[dragonflight288]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A faction may be, and there is already existing lore to support it, called lyrium withdrawal or lyrium addled when too much is used over an extended period of time, but I highly doubt every templar or seeker will be dumbed down like Cerberus.

But will they pull off the "Ex-Cerberus" angle from ME3? Turning everyone who believed in Cerberus into antagonists and the only "good" people being those who oppose them at every turn and isn't "true" Cerberus. Any companion who supported anything Cerberus suddenly admitting they were wrong all along.

No idea. The Dragon Age team isn't the Mass Effect team.

[The Hierophant]

Name one instance she fought hard for reforms before the sh*t hit the fan? Heck what did she do for Kirkwall aside from sending Leliana to retrieve Elthina?

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

If Adrian and Fiona hadn't done what they did, Lambert wouldn't have done what he did.

And even if Lambert's actions were misguided, that doesn't mean Justinia's decision to empower the mages to start a war was the correct one.

Who decided to break away from the Chantry and start a war again?Lambert did and he is as much to blame as Andrian.Fiona could have been swayed if Justinia convinced the other fraternities that the Circles needed to be reformed.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

Name one instance she fought hard for reforms before the sh*t hit the fan? Heck what did she do for Kirkwall aside from sending Leliana to retrieve Elthina?

For one it's implied that she disagreed with the Tranquil Solution when the previous Divine would have given the OK.Several years before Asunder Justinia was working with Pharamond to reverse the effects of Traquility and to see if mages could be cut from their connection to the Fade without turning them into emotionless robots.

However I imagine she had to deal with several obstructions from the traditionalists like Lambert so her efforts were too late to make a difference.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Who decided to break away from the Chantry and start a war again?Lambert did and he is as much to blame as Andrian.Fiona could have been swayed if Justinia convinced the other fraternities that the Circles needed to be reformed.

The mages broke away first. I agree that Lambert made a serious mistake when he bit Adrian's trap and that there was a possiblity to convince the covenant to vote against the war if he had just stayed put.
But Adrian and Fiona are both also to blame; Adrian for killing Pharamond and planting false evidence and Fiona for taking advantage of Justinia's attempts at reform to push her separatist agenda.
And, at the end of the day, if Justinia truly wished to prevent a war that will cost thousands of lives; both those of mages and non-mages; then she shouldn't have helped the leaders of the mages to escape.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Hierophant wrote...

@cjones91

She barely did anything for the mages until her seat of power was threatened, kind of like what most politicians do. The Templar being thrown under the bus doesn't change how the Chantry had a corrupting influence over the former Inquisition, while it had nearly a millenia to make reforms before things got critical.

Well i think similarly before mage revolution in kirkwall she didn't even do something to help mages she just send leliana to kill mages who was dangerous for her and her power.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Who decided to break away from the Chantry and start a war again?Lambert did and he is as much to blame as Andrian.Fiona could have been swayed if Justinia convinced the other fraternities that the Circles needed to be reformed.

The mages broke away first. I agree that Lambert made a serious mistake when he bit Adrian's trap and that there was a possiblity to convince the covenant to vote against the war if he had just stayed put.
But Adrian and Fiona are both also to blame; Adrian for killing Pharamond and planting false evidence and Fiona for taking advantage of Justinia's attempts at reform to push her separatist agenda.
And, at the end of the day, if Justinia truly wished to prevent a war that will cost thousands of lives; both those of mages and non-mages; then she shouldn't have helped the leaders of the mages to escape.

And what would have happened if Lambert and his men had'nt burst into the meeting with swords?Wynne would have stopped Fiona just like she did before and Justinia would have called both parties in for a sit down.

Modifié par cjones91, 01 septembre 2013 - 09:02 .

[cjones91]

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
Who decided to break away from the Chantry and start a war again?Lambert did and he is as much to blame as Andrian.Fiona could have been swayed if Justinia convinced the other fraternities that the Circles needed to be reformed.[/quote]

The mages broke away first. I agree that Lambert made a serious mistake when he bit Adrian's trap and that there was a possiblity to convince the covenant to vote against the war if he had just stayed put.
But Adrian and Fiona are both also to blame; Adrian for killing Pharamond and planting false evidence and Fiona for taking advantage of Justinia's attempts at reform to push her separatist agenda.
And, at the end of the day, if Justinia truly wished to prevent a war that will cost thousands of lives; both those of mages and non-mages; then she shouldn't have helped the leaders of the mages to escape.

[/quote]DP

Modifié par cjones91, 01 septembre 2013 - 09:02 .

[Ziggeh]

Ausstig wrote...
Maybe, but how many mages have we seen in the demo? 

how many Mages Have been shown as agressors in the art?

Do I really need to point out how silly a point that is?  You're attempting to use massively and intentionally incomplete data as evidence.

[deuce985]

This is a silly comparison. It really is. We barely know the details behind DA:I and what we know of Templars and Cerberus are completely different ideologies. Completely different. It almost seems like people are looking for something to complain about and digging hard(no offense intended to OP).

I get your concern but step back and look at them closely - is it really the same thing outside the "madness" that we already saw from lyrium in DA2? Red lyrium itself is still a bit of a mystery in the DA universe.

Modifié par deuce985, 01 septembre 2013 - 09:35 .

[ev76]

What would be a good twist is if Cullen is the head of the red Templars! Lol

[Shadow Fox]

ev76 wrote...

What would be a good twist is if Cullen is the head of the red Templars! Lol

*prepares goblet for fanboy/girl tears*

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

For one it's implied that she disagreed with the Tranquil Solution when the previous Divine would have given the OK.

Pre lyrium crazed Meredith who's a hardliner, and Elthina disagreed with it too.

Several years before Asunder Justinia was working with Pharamond to reverse the effects of Traquility and to see if mages could be cut from their connection to the Fade without turning them into emotionless robots.

Wouldn't this be around the time when tensions started to flare in Kirkwall?

However I imagine she had to deal with several obstructions from the traditionalists like Lambert so her efforts were too late to make a difference.

Considering Leliana's objectives in Kirkwall i'm skeptical of that.

[Dave of Canada]

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

^That's a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if Justinia, and the Chantry are whitewashed while all of Thedas' current woes are solely blamed on the Templars.

What did Justinia do?

She had Chantry operatives and Circle mages work behind Templar backs to find an alternative for Tranquility, no alternative was found but instead a cure for Tranquility which Wynne took and gave to every Circle in Thedas to make sure that the Chantry and Templar don't destroy the evidence. This greatly upsets Lambert.

Justinia allows the mages to meet in private. Meanwhile, Pharamond was cured of tranquility and as a result was going to be remade tranquil by the Templar, they found him murdered in his chambers with evidence pointing it to Rhys. Wynne provokes the mages to defend Rhys and they oppose Lambert from taking him away, mages are imprisoned. Lambert is angry.

Justinia sends her agents to help Wynne rescue the mages, they sneak into the tower while Justinia distracts Lambert and the majority of the Templar so only a token force remained with the imprisoned mages. Justinia's agents kill the Templar in the Circle to rescue the mages and they escape.

The escaped mages decide to declare war on the Chantry/Templar after they voted and one vote tipped the scales in favor of war.

Lambert becomes furious, tells Justinia that she's not doing her duty to the Maker and that the accord which associates the Templar with the Chantry is now void and they'll re-imprison the mages without her. Not all Templar went with Lambert.