1470 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

^That's a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if Justinia, and the Chantry are whitewashed while all of Thedas' current woes are solely blamed on the Templars.

What did Justinia do?

She had Chantry operatives and Circle mages work behind Templar backs to find an alternative for Tranquility, no alternative was found but instead a cure for Tranquility which Wynne took and gave to every Circle in Thedas to make sure that the Chantry and Templar don't destroy the evidence. This greatly upsets Lambert.

Justinia allows the mages to meet in private. Meanwhile, Pharamond was cured of tranquility and as a result was going to be remade tranquil by the Templar, they found him murdered in his chambers with evidence pointing it to Rhys. Wynne provokes the mages to defend Rhys and they oppose Lambert from taking him away, mages are imprisoned. Lambert is angry.

Justinia sends her agents to help Wynne rescue the mages, they sneak into the tower while Justinia distracts Lambert and the majority of the Templar so only a token force remained with the imprisoned mages. Justinia's agents kill the Templar in the Circle to rescue the mages and they escape.

The escaped mages decide to declare war on the Chantry/Templar after they voted and one vote tipped the scales in favor of war.

Lambert becomes furious, tells Justinia that she's not doing her duty to the Maker and that the accord which associates the Templar with the Chantry is now void and they'll re-imprison the mages without her. Not all Templar went with Lambert.

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

[billy the squid]

cjones91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

^That's a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if Justinia, and the Chantry are whitewashed while all of Thedas' current woes are solely blamed on the Templars.

What did Justinia do?

She had Chantry operatives and Circle mages work behind Templar backs to find an alternative for Tranquility, no alternative was found but instead a cure for Tranquility which Wynne took and gave to every Circle in Thedas to make sure that the Chantry and Templar don't destroy the evidence. This greatly upsets Lambert.

Justinia allows the mages to meet in private. Meanwhile, Pharamond was cured of tranquility and as a result was going to be remade tranquil by the Templar, they found him murdered in his chambers with evidence pointing it to Rhys. Wynne provokes the mages to defend Rhys and they oppose Lambert from taking him away, mages are imprisoned. Lambert is angry.

Justinia sends her agents to help Wynne rescue the mages, they sneak into the tower while Justinia distracts Lambert and the majority of the Templar so only a token force remained with the imprisoned mages. Justinia's agents kill the Templar in the Circle to rescue the mages and they escape.

The escaped mages decide to declare war on the Chantry/Templar after they voted and one vote tipped the scales in favor of war.

Lambert becomes furious, tells Justinia that she's not doing her duty to the Maker and that the accord which associates the Templar with the Chantry is now void and they'll re-imprison the mages without her. Not all Templar went with Lambert.

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

The Germans didn't declare war on any of the major powers pre WW2, they just pushed the situation until it became inevitable after the annexing Austria, effectively invading Chezelovakia and then invading Poland. So please don't tell me a party can't bring a situation to an inevitable conflict by antagonising the other faction.

That's exactly what the mage fraternities did, they pushd at the circle until the hardliners in the Templars took the bait and went for the the senior enchanters. They were manipulative and decietful and used the system to precipitate a war of their own design. All the while Justine stood there like a moron, when she knew the faction within the Templars, like Lambert were going to bite sooner or later if the extreamist mages kept antagonising the Templars until the situation was so dire the mages were murdering people.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 septembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[The Elder King]

I'll post here my post in another thread (don't know if someone already thought about it)
I have a thought. Remember the fellow that gave the Inquisitor the helm/sword in the concepts in the DA site? If the rings in his hand were meant to indicate various factions in the game, the red ring could indicate the red templar faction, different from the templar and the seeker faction.

[Dave of Canada]

cjones91 wrote...

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

The epilogue, Rhys was the final vote.

[Cainhurst Crow]

To be honest it sounds like a false equivalency to compare mages to na'zi germany. Where did the mages invade? What territory did they annex?

It also sounds like blaming the victim to say thst the mages deserved to get attacked and the templars were just innocent victims of an evil deceitful trap by those crafty mages wanting to get decapitated and killed with a sword.

Just saying man, maybe both sides should go and jump off a cliff, do the world a favor.

[Dean_the_Young]

hhh89 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

One of the Tevinter mages in the demo already said "We will reign". Therefore, I suspect the role of justifying the position of Pro-Templars; if that is something they even bother with; will be relegated to Tevinter mages while, conveniently, keeping the "glorious and completely justified mage revolution" as innocent as a babe in arms.

Still, the support is appreciated.

I hope that the mage rebellion will be portrayed in a realistic way, expecially considering the various different ideologies in the confraternities. Asunder already shown mages who wouldn't esitate in sacrificing innocents to achieve their own goals.

What does 'realistic' mean? That's a vague, nebulous standard to which everyone can have their own view. The American Revolution and the Boshevik Revolution were both rebellions... but they went incredibly different places.

[cjones91]

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

The epilogue, Rhys was the final vote.

That was after the Mages were attacked and most of the First Enchanters were killed,the templars drew first blood at that point.

[Dean_the_Young]

cjones91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

The epilogue, Rhys was the final vote.

That was after the Mages were attacked and most of the First Enchanters were killed,the templars drew first blood at that point.

Is this before or after Templar guards were killed to further mage rebellion?

[cjones91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

The epilogue, Rhys was the final vote.

That was after the Mages were attacked and most of the First Enchanters were killed,the templars drew first blood at that point.

Is this before or after Templar guards were killed to further mage rebellion?

Remember that senior enchanter who was struck down by a guilt ridden templar?Because that was the match that lit the volatile powder keg.

[The Elder King]

@Dean_the_Young: I used the wrong word there. What I meant is that I want that the mages are portrayed in both good and bad way, showing different opinions on how to deal with this war and the rest of the world.
The same goes for the templars.

[The Hierophant]

I agree with hhh89.

[billy the squid]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

To be honest it sounds like a false equivalency to compare mages to na'zi germany. Where did the mages invade? What territory did they annex?

It also sounds like blaming the victim to say thst the mages deserved to get attacked and the templars were just innocent victims of an evil deceitful trap by those crafty mages wanting to get decapitated and killed with a sword.

Just saying man, maybe both sides should go and jump off a cliff, do the world a favor.

No it's not. Continually antagonising another faction and taking steps such as deciet, manipulation and murder to force the issue is exactly the same method used by the Nais to create the conflict in the first place.

What did you think would happen after the annexation of Austria, retaking the Sudetenland, ignoring the stipulations of the treaty of Versailles, effectively invading Checoslovakia in all but name, until finally the ultimatun was given over Poland.

It's the same thing the Mages did culminating in the murder of one of their own. They full well knew what Lambert and his hardline faction would do, and they banked on it. It was a masterful manipulation to get the war they wanted to split from the chantry.

And the allies weren't exactly blameless in the Nazi's rise to power, the Treaty of Versailles was so onerrous that it gave any extremist faction a gift to use in their politcal dominance of the Reichstag, but it doesn't change what was done. The same with the mages, thier treatment may be restrictive, they still murdered and manipulated to create a conflict.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 septembre 2013 - 10:56 .

[Shadow Fox]

Both sides aren't blameless and frankly it sounds like Justina,Fiona and Adrian escalated the situation for their own reasons.

[cjones91]

billy the squid wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

To be honest it sounds like a false equivalency to compare mages to na'zi germany. Where did the mages invade? What territory did they annex?

It also sounds like blaming the victim to say thst the mages deserved to get attacked and the templars were just innocent victims of an evil deceitful trap by those crafty mages wanting to get decapitated and killed with a sword.

Just saying man, maybe both sides should go and jump off a cliff, do the world a favor.

No it's not. Continually antagonising another faction and taking steps such as deciet, manipulation and murder to force the issue is exactly the same method used by the Nais to create the conflict in the first place.

What did you think would happen after the annexation of Austria, retaking the Sudetenland, ignoring the stipulations of the treaty of Versailles, effectively invading Checoslovakia in all but name, until finally the ultimatun was given over Poland.

It's the same thing the Mages did culminating in the murder of one of their own. They full well knew what Lambert and his hardline faction would do, and they banked on it. It was a masterful manipulation to get the war they wanted to split from the chantry.

And the allies weren't exactly blameless in the Nazi's rise to power, the Treaty of Versailles was so onerrous that it gave any extremist faction a gift to use in their politcal dominance of the Reichstag.

Andrian had acted alone and the other mages were not involved in Pharamond's murder.

[Urazz]

billy the squid wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

^That's a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if Justinia, and the Chantry are whitewashed while all of Thedas' current woes are solely blamed on the Templars.

What did Justinia do?

She had Chantry operatives and Circle mages work behind Templar backs to find an alternative for Tranquility, no alternative was found but instead a cure for Tranquility which Wynne took and gave to every Circle in Thedas to make sure that the Chantry and Templar don't destroy the evidence. This greatly upsets Lambert.

Justinia allows the mages to meet in private. Meanwhile, Pharamond was cured of tranquility and as a result was going to be remade tranquil by the Templar, they found him murdered in his chambers with evidence pointing it to Rhys. Wynne provokes the mages to defend Rhys and they oppose Lambert from taking him away, mages are imprisoned. Lambert is angry.

Justinia sends her agents to help Wynne rescue the mages, they sneak into the tower while Justinia distracts Lambert and the majority of the Templar so only a token force remained with the imprisoned mages. Justinia's agents kill the Templar in the Circle to rescue the mages and they escape.

The escaped mages decide to declare war on the Chantry/Templar after they voted and one vote tipped the scales in favor of war.

Lambert becomes furious, tells Justinia that she's not doing her duty to the Maker and that the accord which associates the Templar with the Chantry is now void and they'll re-imprison the mages without her. Not all Templar went with Lambert.

I've read Asunder three times and no where in the book did the mages declare war.You're letting your bias cloud the events of the book in order to paint Justinia and the mages as the bad guys.

The Germans didn't declare war on any of the major powers pre WW2, they just pushed the situation until it became inevitable after the annexing Austria, effectively invading Chezelovakia and then invading Poland. So please don't tell me a party can't bring a situation to an inevitable conflict by antagonising the other faction.

That's exactly what the mage fraternities did, they pushd at the circle until the hardliners in the Templars took the bait and went for the the senior enchanters. They were manipulative and decietful and used the system to precipitate a war of their own design. All the while Justine stood there like a moron, when she knew the faction within the Templars, like Lambert were going to bite sooner or later if the extreamist mages kept antagonising the Templars until the situation was so dire the mages were murdering people.

And you think the Templars are innocent in all of this? They had their part in causing the mage Templar war as well and it was just as big as the mages part.

The Templars pretty much drove the conflict to the point where it is now but it's not entirely the Templar order's fault.  It's the way the Circle system was designed.  It had no checks and balances to ensure the Templars could not abuse their power.

This led to the more extremist Templars gaining control and as a result, the more moderate mages ended up siding with the mage extremists that wanted full separation from the Chantry because their situation was desperate.

Justinia was pretty much in a bad place though.  She was trying to hold the system together but by that point things were at the boiling point and no matter what she did, things would've boiled over at some point.

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Both sides aren't blameless and frankly it sounds like Justina,Fiona and Adrian escalated the situation for their own reasons.

You forgot to mention Lambert as well,he like Meredith was just looking for a excuse to kill/imprison all the mages.

[The Elder King]

The Hierophant wrote...

I agree with hhh89.

I just hope that the templars and the red templars are different factions. The concept in the DA site about the guy with the rings could hint that (with the RT being rapresented by the red ring), but at this point we'll have to wait and see.

[Shadow Fox]

Also I'd refrain from bringing real world politics into a debate about fictional factions it never ends well.

[Urazz]

hhh89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I agree with hhh89.

I just hope that the templars and the red templars are different factions. The concept in the DA site about the guy with the rings could hint that (with the RT being rapresented by the red ring), but at this point we'll have to wait and see.

I imagine they are or else why would they call the Templars Red Templars?

[The Elder King]

Urazz wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I agree with hhh89.

I just hope that the templars and the red templars are different factions. The concept in the DA site about the guy with the rings could hint that (with the
RT being rapresented by the red ring), but at this point we'll have to wait and see.

I imagine they are or else why would they call the Templars Red Templars?

I agree, it wouldn't make sense to call them 'red', if they represent all the templars, but people are still concerned by it, or they fear that the normal templars are those who remained with the Divine.

[The Hierophant]

Now that i think about it, since there's a Red Templar Corps are their abilities powered by rage, and do blue, green, yellow, orange, indigo, white and black factions exist too? (:

[Adanu]

The Templars brought the circle breaking on themselves when Lambert was an **** with the CIrcle leadership.

The circles didn't declare war, they declared independence and prepared for the inevitable templar army.

Anyone who sees things differently is completely biased towards Templars to be blind to the faults of Lamberts leadership.

[Shadow Fox]

The Hierophant wrote...

Now that i think about it, since there's a Red Templar Corps are their abilities powered by rage, and do blue, green, yellow, orange, indigo, white and black factions exist too? (:

DCAU John Stewart as Templar  companion?YES PLEASE!

[The Elder King]

The Hierophant wrote...

Now that i think about it, since there's a Red Templar Corps are their abilities powered by rage, and do blue, green, yellow, orange, indigo, white and black factions exist too? (:

It'd been there are more than two types of lyrium.

[Shadow Fox]

Adanu wrote...

The Templars brought the circle breaking on themselves when Lambert was an **** with the CIrcle leadership.

The circles didn't declare war, they declared independence and prepared for the inevitable templar army.

Anyone who sees things differently is completely biased towards Templars to be blind to the faults of Lamberts leadership.

Adrian and Fiona played a part in that too you know.