1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

The only reason wynne's alive is because the templars saved her from her parents trying to burn her to death.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

cjones91 wrote...

Cullen states to the Mage Warden that many templars gleefully kill mages who don't pass their Harrowing during the Magi Origin.

I should hope they're eager considering a Mage who fails their Harrowing is an Abomination. Or did you forget that?

Like I said earlier, there are no doubt bastard Templars, but there are far more Cullens, Thrasks, Kerans, and Greigors than there are Alriks or Merediths. This isn't just my "head canon" or my own interpretation of the world - the games and books support this claim. There are just plain old more good Templars than bad. A lot more.

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The only reason wynne's alive is because the templars saved her from her parents trying to burn her to death.

She did'nt even know her parents,she was taken in by some farmers where their two sons bullied her.

[cjones91]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Cullen states to the Mage Warden that many templars gleefully kill mages who don't pass their Harrowing during the Magi Origin.

I should hope they're eager considering a Mage who fails their Harrowing is an Abomination. Or did you forget that?

Like I said earlier, there are no doubt bastard Templars, but there are far more Cullens, Thrasks, Kerans, and Greigors than there are Alriks or Merediths. This isn't just my "head canon" or my own interpretation of the world - the games and books support this claim. There are just plain old more good Templars than bad. A lot more.

Then why did'nt they take a stand when the bastard templars went against the Chantry?And it's not just abominations they kill but also mages who don't finish their Harrowing fast enough as shown with Mouse.

Modifié par cjones91, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:30 .

[llandwynwyn]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The only reason wynne's alive is because the templars saved her from her parents trying to burn her to death.

And some folks from her village, I think.

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The only reason wynne's alive is because the templars saved her from her parents trying to burn her to death.

She did'nt even know her parents,she was taken in by some farmers where their two sons bullied her.

Still deson't change the fact that Templars saved her from being burned to death

[OLDIRTYBARON]

cjones91 wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Cullen states to the Mage Warden that many templars gleefully kill mages who don't pass their Harrowing during the Magi Origin.

I should hope they're eager considering a Mage who fails their Harrowing is an Abomination. Or did you forget that?

Like I said earlier, there are no doubt bastard Templars, but there are far more Cullens, Thrasks, Kerans, and Greigors than there are Alriks or Merediths. This isn't just my "head canon" or my own interpretation of the world - the games and books support this claim. There are just plain old more good Templars than bad. A lot more.

Then why did'nt they take a stand when the bastard templars went against the Chantry?And it's not just abominations they kill mages who don't finish their Harrowing fast enough as shown with Mouse.

Two points:

1.) I'm not sure what you're asking. You're going to need to clarify what you meant by "going against the Chantry."

2.) Mouse was a Pride Demon. He was the Mage Warden's test. He created the persona of Mouse in order to trick the player into letting him in, thus failing his Harrowing, thus the Mage Warden would be skewered by a Templar.

[Vit246]

Nobody's in denial that mages are dangerous and should be watched. The problem is, most of the danger is exaggerated to a point and the Chantry/Templar way of watching was ultimately counterproductive by creating the very monsters that they fight against.

The following chaos that happens is not because mages are now free without supervision, but because mages have finally had enough of a world that condemns them at birth and a system that did not work.

Modifié par Vit246, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:38 .

[cjones91]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Cullen states to the Mage Warden that many templars gleefully kill mages who don't pass their Harrowing during the Magi Origin.

I should hope they're eager considering a Mage who fails their Harrowing is an Abomination. Or did you forget that?

Like I said earlier, there are no doubt bastard Templars, but there are far more Cullens, Thrasks, Kerans, and Greigors than there are Alriks or Merediths. This isn't just my "head canon" or my own interpretation of the world - the games and books support this claim. There are just plain old more good Templars than bad. A lot more.

Then why did'nt they take a stand when the bastard templars went against the Chantry?And it's not just abominations they kill mages who don't finish their Harrowing fast enough as shown with Mouse.

Two points:

1.) I'm not sure what you're asking. You're going to need to clarify what you meant by "going against the Chantry."

2.) Mouse was a Pride Demon. He was the Mage Warden's test. He created the persona of Mouse in order to trick the player into letting him in, thus failing his Harrowing, thus the Mage Warden would be skewered by a Templar.

In Asunder Lambert and 15 other Knight Commanders broke their agreement with the Chantry and went rogue,not one KC objected to that and so they are supporting the genocide of countless mages.Were they the good ones since they represented the majority of templars?

[OLDIRTYBARON]

cjones91 wrote...In Asunder Lambert and 15 other Knight Commanders broke their agreement with the Chantry and went rogue,not one KC objected to that and so they are supporting the genocide of countless mages.Were they the good ones since they represented the majority of templars?

You're taking a complex situation and stripping all context from it. You read Asunder, I take it. You know there was a lot more going on than Lambert and some other Templars chomping at the bit to kill mages.

Vit246 wrote...

Nobody's in denial that mages are dangerous and should be watched. The problem is, most of the danger is exaggerated and the Chantry/Templar way of watching was ultimately counterproductive by creating the very monsters that they fight against.

The following chaos that happens is not because mages are now free without supervision, but because mages have finally had enough of a world that condemns them at birth and a system that did not work.

And now that mages have had enough and are fighting back, what happens to the common people of Thedas? Let's say the mage rebellion succeeds and puts down the Templar Order. What then? Do they just stop at Templars or do they continue their conquest, recognizing that the one faction that could have possibly held them at bay is now gone? It's not an exaggeration to suggest that this mage rebellion could give rise to another Imperium which, for the "mundanes" as some people like to say, would be a decidedly bad thing.

Also, it's no exaggeration to say that a mage could fall prey to a demon's possession. It's also not an exaggeration to say that they could turn to blood magic and thus dominate the minds of others. Ultimately, the Templars need to watch mages because it only takes one to upset the delicate balance of order that is maintained in any Thedosian land. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility, and the Circle (also by extension, Tempalrs) only seek to ensure that mages learn that lesson well.

[cjones91]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

cjones91 wrote...In Asunder Lambert and 15 other Knight Commanders broke their agreement with the Chantry and went rogue,not one KC objected to that and so they are supporting the genocide of countless mages.Were they the good ones since they represented the majority of templars?

You're taking a complex situation and stripping all context from it. You read Asunder, I take it. You know there was a lot more going on than Lambert and some other Templars chomping at the bit to kill mages.

Vit246 wrote...

Nobody's in denial that mages are dangerous and should be watched. The problem is, most of the danger is exaggerated and the Chantry/Templar way of watching was ultimately counterproductive by creating the very monsters that they fight against.

The following chaos that happens is not because mages are now free without supervision, but because mages have finally had enough of a world that condemns them at birth and a system that did not work.

And now that mages have had enough and are fighting back, what happens to the common people of Thedas? Let's say the mage rebellion succeeds and puts down the Templar Order. What then? Do they just stop at Templars or do they continue their conquest, recognizing that the one faction that could have possibly held them at bay is now gone? It's not an exaggeration to suggest that this mage rebellion could give rise to another Imperium which, for the "mundanes" as some people like to say, would be a decidedly bad thing.

Also, it's no exaggeration to say that a mage could fall prey to a demon's possession. It's also not an exaggeration to say that they could turn to blood magic and thus dominate the minds of others. Ultimately, the Templars need to watch mages because it only takes one to upset the delicate balance of order that is maintained in any Thedosian land. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility, and the Circle (also by extension, Tempalrs) only seek to ensure that mages learn that lesson well.

The templars declared war and that means people are going to die,the mages are a disorganized force which means many are going to fight to the death.

All the mages ever wanted was to have the same rights as everyone else and felt they should'nt be treated like monsters because of they are born.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

cjones91 wrote...

The templars declared war and that means people are going to die,the mages are a disorganized force which means many are going to fight to the death.

Not true. The mages were barking about rights and threatening to break away from the Circle. The Templars probably would not have broken away from the Chantry had Divine Justinia V not decided to hear them out. By giving into the mages demand for council she was sending the message that stomping your feet and acting all threatening could get you what you wanted. The Templars rightly saw this as lunacy.

I disagree with how Lambert and the others went about things, but I can understand where it came from. Give an inch and they could well take a mile.

All the mages ever wanted was to have the same rights as everyone else and felt they should'nt be treated like monsters because of they are born.

Maybe, maybe not. The problem is that mages cannot have the same rights as everyone else. As sad as it is, magic is a gift and a curse. By being special, they are also plagued by demons and hold a power over others that nobody can hope to match. They may not have asked for that power, or their situation, but it's the hand they've been dealt. 

[MisterJB]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, since this is apparently a hard concept to fathom. Templars ARE ruthless towards mages, despite the age of the mage (even that is such a broad generalization, that it is probably incorrect). However, they are not beyond mercy, especially not towards mundanes, and I'd imagine particularly children. The non-mage children of a mage camp, would probably not be killed, I doubt even the actual mage-children would, rather they would be captured, and then Maker knows what would happen. Probably be dropped off at some orphanage.
The Templars' MO is not the total extermination of mages after all. They want the mages contained again, like they used to be. As such, I'd imagine they actually show mercy to the amges who surrender willingly. Again, that is also a broad generalization, since that probably also varries.

Show me an example of such mercy.  Beyond your own headcanon

Sure. In DA2 you raid a blood base with some Templars. After you eliminate resistance there are Mage sympathizes and relatives surrendering. The male officer wants to kill them but he female officer objects and even fights him to stop the massacre.

Also, if you side with Meredith's Annulment, some mages surrender. If Hawke speaks in their favor, the Templars spare them.
Then there were the seven times Anders escaped and was brought back.
The Templars sparing Alain despite him being a blood mage.
The Templars sparing the whole Circle of Starkhaven despite them being Apostates.
The Templars sparing Emille despite him being an Apostate.
The Templars sparing Idunna despite her being a blood mage and Apostate.
The Templars sparing Ella despite her having escaped the Circle.
The Templars sparing Connor despite him being an Apostate and former-Abomination.
The Templars sparing Bethany despite her being an Apostate her whole life.
Gregoir revoking the Right of Annulment despite the Circle being overrun and the possibility of everyone being possessed.

What was that about mercy being the exception rather than the rule again?

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 septembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
And it's not just abominations they kill but also mages who don't finish their Harrowing fast enough as shown with Mouse.

The Pride Demon who wants to turn you against the Templars and feel enough pity for it that you will allow it into your soul? You're going to believe a word it says?
Clearly, you can't be trusted to resist demons. I vote we tranquilise him, who's with me?

cjones91 wrote...
In Asunder Lambert and 15 other Knight
Commanders broke their agreement with the Chantry and went rogue,not one
KC objected to that and so they are supporting the genocide of
countless mages.Were they the good ones since they represented the
majority of templars?

Genocide? Even in his own thougths, all Lambert considers is extablishing the Circle again. No one is looking to commit genocide.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 septembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[Urazz]

Vit246 wrote...

Nobody's in denial that mages are dangerous and should be watched. The problem is, most of the danger is exaggerated to a point and the Chantry/Templar way of watching was ultimately counterproductive by creating the very monsters that they fight against.

The following chaos that happens is not because mages are now free without supervision, but because mages have finally had enough of a world that condemns them at birth and a system that did not work.

It also didn't help that the system also allowed for Templar extremists to abuse their powers and rise to positions of leadership as well.

[Dabrikishaw]

Wasn't Cerberus badly handled from day 1?

[Steelcan]

all of those examples are at the behest of the PC, not the Templars themselves

[Steelcan]

llandwynwyn wrote...

It's amazing how some people are in deep denial that mages are dangerous and should be watched in some way.
No, the actual system isn't working and many mages are being abused. It's nothing compared to the chaos that would follow letting they go free without supervision.

Everyone keeps saying that, but there is only one example of a society that had free mages. 

[Inprea]

@MisterJB

The protagonist showing people mercy and intervening on their behalf is not the templars showing mercy.

Where is your evidence that they knew Alain was a blood mage until he chose to reveal it during Thrask little mission? Furthermore the only reason they're spared is if Hawke steps in. Hawke who is at that point the champion. Can you call protagonist intervension mercy?

The Starkhaven mages I also remember one of the templars wanting to put them all down saying, "Once a robe has tasted freedom they best be put down." Or something to that extent. If Hawke even mentions being a friend to the mages the templars attack. It seems to me they're far more scenarios when the templars sent after the mages are more merciless there then merciful.

Emille is once again protagonist intervention and quite possible family intervention. If you might recall Meredith even mentions an impationed appeal from his family. HIs very wealthy family.

Idunna sent to the templars by the protagonist and not allowed out of her cell.

Ella? Oh yeah the templars were totally merciful to Ella. They were going to make her tranquil and it is at least implied rape her. And no it wasn't just Sir Alrik. It was every single templar that stood with him, fought by his side or would have allowed the atrocity to go through. The same goes for every single time the templars failed to notice and stop Alrik's abuses. The only mercy she recieves is due to player intervenion.

Connor is the son of a powerful duke and where do you get that it was the templars that spared him? He was rescued by the Warden.

Ripping Bethany a mage who has been nearly the pinnacle of well behaved away from her loving family and locking her up is not a mercy. Saying the templars were merciful to her is like saying a mugger was merciful whenever they just took your money instead of beating you as well.

Gregoir the Knight commander who failed misserably to protect his charges, locked them with the abdominations, asks the Warden to purch the circle and once again the only mercy we see here is due to protagonist intervension. When you lock a child up with no means of escape, promise them protection and then that child is slaughtered that child's blood is on your hands to.




As for templars being merciless.

Aneiren an elf child who was scared and taken from his family and the templars run him through. It can't even be said he posed a threat as years later we see him as a healer and not an abomination.

The templars continuing to persue Anders even after he's drafted into the wardens. The ignore the law of the King and the wardens in order to pursue their own agenda and it wasn't just one templar. It was those that supported her in the fight and any who might have known of her actions but chose to ignore them.

Wynne having her child taken from her to who knows what fait and how many mage parents have had to endure the same cruelty?

If you don't side with Meredith you even get to see templars killing mundane people simply because they offered a starving beaten mage a meal.

There is even the harrowing itself. It's not even an option for every mage apprentice. Only those apprentices that are considered gifted enough. Those who aren't are made tranquil, executed or imprisoned. So every time a templar brings a mage child in they know they're taking that person to their death most likely for them to even have a chance at survival they have to be one of the gifted or special ones.

Given how in both games we've seen the templars fail horribly to protect their charges and uphold their end of the deal is it little wonder that the mages are no longer willing to trust their lives to them?

[Shadow Fox]

This is going in Circles.

[Steelcan]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

This is going in Circles.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

This is going in Circles.

I'm waiting for Enchantbot01 to show up and start promising to flay all mundanes alive for having the gall to be born without magic.

[MisterJB]

In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.
Whether there was a nudge from the player or not is irrelevant. For example, Hawke is the one who tells Idunna to go the Circles but the Templars could have easily killed her for being an apostate and blood mage once she got there but they didn't. That is mercy and the numbert of examples clearly disproves this notion that Templars are without mercy and just looking for justifications to kill mages.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.

Because of the PC's intervention