Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's interventionMisterJB wrote...
In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.
Irrelevant. Hawke suggesting mercy does not force the Templars to show it.Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's intervention
I'm sure there were some reasonable people in the Wehrmacht as wellAresKeith wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's interventionMisterJB wrote...
In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.
It shows that some of them can atleast be reasoned with
That's why all of those examples are invalid. You have to use examples in which the PC has no input. Such as Meredith's decision to butcher an entire Circle because of the crimes of an apostate.MisterJB wrote...
Irrelevant. Hawke suggesting mercy does not force the Templars to show it.Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's intervention
If we are going to discount player intervention, then this becomes a rigged game because, for instance, there is no option for Hawke to abstain from commenting regarding Alain's fate. It's either "show him mercy" or "kill them all" and then I can just claim the Templars only killed him because of the PC's intervention.
Bottom line, just because Hawke says something, doesn't mean the templars are forced to obey him/her.
Modifié par Steelcan, 03 septembre 2013 - 02:58 .
And my advice was ignored...Steelcan wrote...
I'm sure there were some reasonable people in the Wehrmacht as wellAresKeith wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's interventionMisterJB wrote...
In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.
It shows that some of them can atleast be reasoned with
It wasn't even considered tbhArcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And my advice was ignored...Steelcan wrote...
I'm sure there were some reasonable people in the Wehrmacht as wellAresKeith wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's interventionMisterJB wrote...
In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.
It shows that some of them can atleast be reasoned with
No, they aren't and no, I don't. You're offering no valid reason why those examples are invalid.Steelcan wrote...
That's why all of those examples are invalid. You have to use examples in which the PC has no input. Such as Meredith's decision to butcher an entire Circle because of the crimes of an apostate.
Modifié par MisterJB, 03 septembre 2013 - 03:02 .
*sighs*Steelcan wrote...
It wasn't even considered tbhArcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And my advice was ignored...Steelcan wrote...
I'm sure there were some reasonable people in the Wehrmacht as wellAresKeith wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Because of the PC's interventionMisterJB wrote...
In all of those examples, the Templars showed mercy to apostates and blood mages and even one Abomination whereas people were claiming that killing is their first resort.
It shows that some of them can atleast be reasoned with
Because in those same examples they can be ruthless as opposed to merciful. That is why those examples are invalid.MisterJB wrote...
No, they aren't and no, I don't. You're offering no valid reason why those examples are invalid.Steelcan wrote...
That's why all of those examples are invalid. You have to use examples in which the PC has no input. Such as Meredith's decision to butcher an entire Circle because of the crimes of an apostate.
If you can dismiss instances where they are merciful because someone is offering a suggestion, I can just easily dismiss Meredith's Annulment because the Templars were being told what to do by a superior officer.
Nothing personalArcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
*sighs*
The possibility of them being ruthless doesn't diminish the deed when they are not. If they were as bloodthirsty as some people depict them, they would kill them regardless of what Hawke said.Steelcan wrote...
Because in those same examples they can be ruthless as opposed to merciful. That is why those examples are invalid.
and the only 'superior officer' that Meredith answered to was the voice in her head.
Both options are possible so they both have to be disregarded. What would have happened if Hawke wsn't there is not important.MisterJB wrote...
The possibility of them being ruthless doesn't diminish the deed when they are not. If they were as bloodthirsty as some people depict them, they would kill them regardless of what Hawke said.Steelcan wrote...
Because in those same examples they can be ruthless as opposed to merciful. That is why those examples are invalid.
and the only 'superior officer' that Meredith answered to was the voice in her head.
You dismiss some examples because someone suggests the Templars to be merciful rather than ruthless. Following that logic, we can dismiss Meredith's annulment because the templars are being told what to do by her and, unlike with Hawke, they're actually obligated to obey her.
Incorrect. The fact that they cna show mercy despite not being obligated to obey Hawke shows that it is well within their possibility.Steelcan wrote...
Both options are possible so they both have to be disregarded. What would have happened if Hawke wsn't there is not important.
Just because Cullen is throwing all manner of army regulations into the wind, doesn't mean they aren't supposed to obey their Knight-Commander. It's not exactly up to this criteria whether the KC is unfit to command or not.Look at them being obligated to follow her when she is clearly chewing on the walls insane...
1. In addition to 3 on there that are either inaccurate or irrelevent.MisterJB wrote...
Incorrect. The fact that they cna show mercy despite not being obligated to obey Hawke shows that it is well within their possibility.Steelcan wrote...
Both options are possible so they both have to be disregarded. What would have happened if Hawke wsn't there is not important.
But if you really want to disregard it, go ahead. Out of the list I posted, a grand total of two were influenced by Hawke.Just because Cullen is throwing all manner of army regulations into the wind, doesn't mean they aren't supposed to obey their Knight-Commander. It's not exactly up to this criteria whether the KC is unfit to command or not.Look at them being obligated to follow her when she is clearly chewing on the walls insane...
Which are?Steelcan wrote...
1. In addition to 3 on there that are either inaccurate or irrelevent.
Because it's not withint the reach of the field soldiers to determine whether the Knight Commander is doing a good job the organization is somehow hopeless? Never mind that Meredith wasn't doing too bad a job until Anders performed his little disappearing trick.2. If they are so hide bound to follow orders to the point of following the orders of a raving lunatic who thinks everyone she sees is a blood mage/thrall then the whole organization is hopeless.
1. well lets see, numbers 1,3,4,5,6,7 are dependent on Hawke, 8 was the work of the Warden, 9 also depends on Hawke, and 10 is dependent on the Warden. So congrats, out of that list, one of them, the one about Anders is valid.MisterJB wrote...
Which are?Steelcan wrote...
1. In addition to 3 on there that are either inaccurate or irrelevent.Because it's not withint the reach of the field soldiers to determine whether the Knight Commander is doing a good job the organization is somehow hopeless? Never mind that Meredith wasn't doing too bad a job until Anders performed his little disappearing trick.2. If they are so hide bound to follow orders to the point of following the orders of a raving lunatic who thinks everyone she sees is a blood mage/thrall then the whole organization is hopeless.
Modifié par Steelcan, 03 septembre 2013 - 03:36 .
1- It's more dependant on Cullen and Meredith than Hawke. Hawke convinces Cullen and it's him that gives the order; or Meredith if Hawke chooses to not get involved.Steelcan wrote...
1. well lets see, numbers 1,3,4,5,6,7 are dependent on Hawke, 8 was the work of the Warden, 9 also depends on Hawke, and 10 is dependent on the Warden. So congrats, out of that list, one of them, the one about Anders is valid.
Letting the Average Joe depose their superior because, according to their criteria, s/he is "insane" is what would make any organization hopeless.2. If the average joe can't see his commander is insane there's a problem.
Modifié par MisterJB, 03 septembre 2013 - 03:50 .
Once again in almost all of those examples the PC is involved. I'll put in 3. And Bethany's fate is entirely up to hawke. Whether she gets a sword in the gut or not.MisterJB wrote...
1- It's more dependant on Cullen and Meredith than Hawke. Hawke convinces Cullen and it's him that gives the order; or Meredith if Hawke chooses to not get involved.Steelcan wrote...
1. well lets see, numbers 1,3,4,5,6,7 are dependent on Hawke, 8 was the work of the Warden, 9 also depends on Hawke, and 10 is dependent on the Warden. So congrats, out of that list, one of them, the one about Anders is valid.
3-It's not dependant on Hawke. Regardless of what s/he says, they are ALWAYS spared.
5-All Hawke did was send Idunna to the Circle. S/he was not there to influence what the Templars did and what they did was sparing her.
6-Same as before. Hawke sends her to the Circle, that is all. S/he doesn't influence the Templar's decisions in any way.
7- Did you mean 8? And again, the Warden had no influence in Connor's fate after he is freed from the demon. S/he did not tell the templars to kill or spare him, that was entirely their decision.
9- Not in the sligthest. Hawke wasn't even there when the Templars arrived and has no influence on the decision to spare Bethany. Cullne even says that it is her willigness to come to the Circle that allows them to not punish ehr family for harboring an Apostate.
10- The Warden can simply ask "And what will the Knight Commander do?" and if Irving has been saved, Gregoir trusts the mages are demon-free.
Bottom line, the Warden and Hawke killing demons and sending mages to the Circle has no more influence in the decisions of the Templars than the specifical policeman that caught a thief will have on the judge's.Letting the Average Joe depose their superior because, according to their criteria, s/he is "insane" is what would make any organization hopeless.2. If the average joe can't see his commander is insane there's a problem.
Steelcan wrote...
Once again in almost all of those examples the PC is involved. I'll put in 3. And Bethany's fate is entirely up to hawke. Whether she gets a sword in the gut or not.
Inprea wrote...
Ripping Bethany a mage who has been nearly the pinnacle of well behaved away from her loving family and locking her up is not a mercy. Saying the templars were merciful to her is like saying a mugger was merciful whenever they just took your money instead of beating you as well.
Gregoir the Knight commander who failed misserably to protect his charges, locked them with the abdominations, asks the Warden to purch the circle and once again the only mercy we see here is due to protagonist intervension. When you lock a child up with no means of escape, promise them protection and then that child is slaughtered that child's blood is on your hands to.
Wynne having her child taken from her to who knows what fait and how many mage parents have had to endure the same cruelty?
Given how in both games we've seen the templars fail horribly to protect their charges and uphold their end of the deal is it little wonder that the mages are no longer willing to trust their lives to them?
cjones91 wrote...
And that's why the Rite sickens me...killing children is something no one can justify.
DKJaigen wrote...
Perhaps they are trying to each the templar supporters the stupidity of relying on a police force that is hooked up on lyrium. what happend here is that they traded one master for another. what the templars themselves want is not relevant . want the one who controls the lyrium want is relevant
cjones91 wrote...
So you believe mages don't care about non-mages?That's a pretty cynical way to think and I'm a cynic myself.
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