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Templars = Cerberus *Updated: "Red Templars"*


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#1376
DKJaigen

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TTTX wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Well, mages are very sensitive to the effects of lyrium; lore-wise, they can't go near the raw stuff without severe hemmorhaging. Even lyrium potions are greatly diluted.

Red lyrium can cause madness and mutation even to individuals with a tolerance for lyrium's effects. So what would be the effect on a mage? I'm willing to bet it's not pretty.

Also, it would make little sense to expose your enemies to a superweapon that turns them into gods.

Unless they don't have choice.

Templars need lyrium to use their abilities  and since most of them have broken away from the chantry, which controls the lyrium trade, well they either to make lyrium supply lines of their own (which can be sabotaged) or use something that can eleminate the need to take regular lyrium in order to use ones abillities.

Red lyrium can do that (and more as seen with Merredith) since it's way more powerful and the templars don't know what happens when a mage is exposed to it, so you can see why some templars would chose to try get Red lyrium and use it.

The chantry most likely no longer control the Lyrium trade, since it has lost much of its influence with the departure of the Templars, and it can no longer enforce its monopoly.


The chantry still has all the gold and the templars dont. And if they loot the local chantry i doubt the local villagers will appericiate it.

#1377
Stalker

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Yes, at the current state of information they are looking to become the indoctrinated Cerberus of the Dragon Age universe, simplifying a complicated moralistic conflict yet again.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 03 septembre 2013 - 01:38 .


#1378
Ollys

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cjones91 wrote...
For one she always believed in protecting the mages from non mages and the non mages from them,second she always put duty first which is why she did'nt kill Pharamond and decided to let the Divine deal with him.She did the right thing when Lambert and his men were killing innocent mages and in my opinion did what any soilder should:go against their commanding officer if they are are doing something immoral.

 
Mages vote to separate from chantry and start revolution, so they was not innocent. Basically, she went full renegade and support her enemies. So she faild to protect non mages from mages, what is templar main mission. Also she  was driven mostly not by logic, but emotions with "ma luv!"

#1379
DKJaigen

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Ollys wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

anmale89 wrote...

@milena87, Evangeline is a traitor of the templar order, she's no more a templar since she switched side.

See this is why I hate extremists.Evangeline was the perfect templar and one of the few moderate ones in a group of mage hating extremists such as yourself.

 
So what makes her good templar? For whole book she side with the mages again and again and finnaly joining rebels. What exacly she do like templar?



If you believe that the templar order is their to protect the mages (which she does) as well as the mundanes (which she does) then you its logical that the she views the current templar order as an abomination. For the record the templars are not the anti mage military force. They are protectors and the templar order fails again and again in this.

#1380
DKJaigen

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Ollys wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
For one she always believed in protecting the mages from non mages and the non mages from them,second she always put duty first which is why she did'nt kill Pharamond and decided to let the Divine deal with him.She did the right thing when Lambert and his men were killing innocent mages and in my opinion did what any soilder should:go against their commanding officer if they are are doing something immoral.

 
Mages vote to separate from chantry and start revolution, so they was not innocent. Basically, she went full renegade and support her enemies. So she faild to protect non mages from mages, what is templar main mission. Also she  was driven mostly not by logic, but emotions with "ma luv!"



No she believes in her principals. very big difference. and the templar order has endangerd the entire world of thedas with their unsanctioned war against the circle mages

#1381
Ollys

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DKJaigen wrote...

No she believes in her principals. very big difference. and the templar order has endangerd the entire world of thedas with their unsanctioned war against the circle mages 

 
Well, war was provoked by mages, when they deside to separate. And yes, she support this war, what  endangerd the entire world of thedas when she allied herself with revolutionary faction.

And about her principals - she probably must belive in what "magic must serve to humans, not rule over them" what is basically inposible, if threat mages as equals, because they are not equals indeed - they are ubermenches with super powers. So even if they not possesed by demons, and even if they not tevinter level tyrants, they will become upper cast of humatiny, just because they can do, what other people cant.

This conflict was interesting because here is no place where both sides will be happy. One always will be opressed and other will be opressor. So, you only can choose who will be unlucky one. Grey moral as it is.
But really, i dont think that Biowares have balls to go on this road further and they will make some sweet caramel ending of this conflict, where good celebrates a victory over evil and everyone is happy. 

#1382
DarkKnightHolmes

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Ollys wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
For one she always believed in protecting the mages from non mages and the non mages from them,second she always put duty first which is why she did'nt kill Pharamond and decided to let the Divine deal with him.She did the right thing when Lambert and his men were killing innocent mages and in my opinion did what any soilder should:go against their commanding officer if they are are doing something immoral.

 
Mages vote to separate from chantry and start revolution, so they was not innocent. Basically, she went full renegade and support her enemies. So she faild to protect non mages from mages, what is templar main mission. Also she  was driven mostly not by logic, but emotions with "ma luv!"



Yes but not all of mages want that or even did that. In the book, it even shows that some mage surrendered when the fight broke out in the circle but the templars still put a sword through them. If that happens, you can bet Evangeline won't just stand around and let it continue.

Edit: And no, you're wrong about the second part. Evangeline wasn't driven by emotions in the end. Lambert was about to kill Rhys because he thought Rhys was the murderer that killed the people in the dungeon when it was actually Cole and Adrian (the last murder anyway) so she went against Lambert because it was wrong to kill an innocent man.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 03 septembre 2013 - 02:34 .


#1383
MisterJB

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dragonflight288 wrote...
She acted as she believed was the good of the mages, and not the good of a religious dogma. A templars duty is to not only protect the world from the mages, but also to protect mages from the world.

And what about the good of the people of Thedas? Where was her concern for them?
Yes, Templars are supposed to protect mages as well but the fact remains that they are isolated and watched over for good reasons and that it is the duty of Templars to hunt down Apostates, not enable them to start wars.
The blood of every person that dies in this conflict is on her hands; she betrayed her duties and her people for the sake of her boytoy and she'll be tried as a traitor if I have anything to say about it in DAI.

#1384
DarkKnightHolmes

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MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
She acted as she believed was the good of the mages, and not the good of a religious dogma. A templars duty is to not only protect the world from the mages, but also to protect mages from the world.

And what about the good of the people of Thedas? Where was her concern for them?
Yes, Templars are supposed to protect mages as well but the fact remains that they are isolated and watched over for good reasons and that it is the duty of Templars to hunt down Apostates, not enable them to start wars.
The blood of every person that dies in this conflict is on her hands; she betrayed her duties and her people for the sake of her boytoy and she'll be tried as a traitor if I have anything to say about it in DAI.



Umm, how is the blood on her hand? It's on Adrians hand because she's the one who killed Pharamond and put the dagger in Rhys room, it's on Fiona's hand because she's the one who ruined the meeting and it's on Lamberts hand for deciding to attack when the Divine told him not to intervene. All Evangeline did was defend Rhys from wrong accusation that Lambert had.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 03 septembre 2013 - 02:45 .


#1385
MisterJB

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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
Umm, how is the blood on her hand? It's on Adrians hand because she's the one who killed Pharamond, it's on Fiona's hand because she's the one who ruined the meeting and it's on Lamberts hand for deciding to attack when the Divine told him not to intervene.


All three of them also have blood on their hands. But Evangeline, along with Wynne, Cole, Shale and Leliana, assisted the mages in their escape.
Had they stayed put, the war wouldn't have started. My Warden couldn't be more ashamed of his "companions".

#1386
Ollys

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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
 All Evangeline did was defend Rhys from wrong accusation that Lambert had.

 
Somethime is better kill innocent to prevent bigger damage. 

#1387
DarkKnightHolmes

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MisterJB wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
Umm, how is the blood on her hand? It's on Adrians hand because she's the one who killed Pharamond, it's on Fiona's hand because she's the one who ruined the meeting and it's on Lamberts hand for deciding to attack when the Divine told him not to intervene.


All three of them also have blood on their hands. But Evangeline, along with Wynne, Cole, Shale and Leliana, assisted the mages in their escape.
Had they stayed put, the war wouldn't have started. My Warden couldn't be more ashamed of his "companions".


The war started because Lambert was going to execute Rhys. Not tranquil or kept in prison for ever but actually execute him. Lambert knew about Cole but he still wanted to frame a mage for all this. He wanted Rhys to admit he was a blood mage when he clearly wasn't.

Wynne just went back because she wanted to save her son from lies and their is even as scene where she is angry enough to kill anyone who stands in her but Evangeline destroys her staff to stop her. If Evangeline really was a traitor she could have easily let Wynne go on a rampage and kill every Templar. Wynne was actually pro-chantry and pro-templar before her son was about to wrongly murdered.

Leliana helped because she is the left hand of the divine and Lambert is now a traitor because he didn't follow orders and she is a friend of Wynne.

Cole doesn't even know what's happening and his only objective is to save Rhys. Nothinge else matters.

And Shale....... well why the hell would she give a damn about templars or mage? She's just their to crack any head Wynne asks her to.

And no, Evangeline and Wynne didn't free the mages. It was Leliana and Cole. So yes, I can understand why templar supporters are angry with Leliana but there is no need to blame Evangeline for that one.

Also you know why the mages have gone to war? Because they asked Rhys in the end.
You know why Rhys decided to go to war even though he didn't want to at first? Because his mother was dead.
You know why his mother was dead? Because she gave her self to bring Evangeline from death.
You know why Evangeline died? Because Lambert killed her.

And well your Warden might feel disgraced or whatever but my Warden would have gladly stood with them all to save an innocent man. Hell, my Warden would have killed Lambert himself.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 03 septembre 2013 - 03:08 .


#1388
DarkKnightHolmes

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Ollys wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
 All Evangeline did was defend Rhys from wrong accusation that Lambert had.

 
Somethime is better kill innocent to prevent bigger damage. 


Lol, are you kidding me? Adrian even says that Rhys is extremely popular with the mages, if he dies they would definitely riot. Killing him was the stupidest thing Lambert thought of.

#1389
Clertar

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Ollys wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
 All Evangeline did was defend Rhys from wrong accusation that Lambert had.

 
Somethime is better kill innocent to prevent bigger damage. 


Said no good person ever.

#1390
Savber100

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Ollys wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
 All Evangeline did was defend Rhys from wrong accusation that Lambert had.

 
Somethime is better kill innocent to prevent bigger damage. 


Yes the murder of one of the head mages (and the son of Wynne, the moderate voice of Circle) is totally going to prevent damage. 

#1391
TTTX

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Conflict is the curse of humanity.
As long as perfect equality doesn't exist (and it never will, especially not with mages. It is downright impossible there), over time poeple will ALWAYS come to blows.
Heck, even when you give perfect equality, there are some who would STILL come to blows.

In short, the Circle system was always strained - that's because any system is.
It was only a matter of time before events happen that will push it to one side enough to start a conflict.
And once it is over - regardless whch side wins - there will be another conflict. And another. And another.

In the perfect world, most people would be bored.

Still the system managed to hold peace between mages and non mages in most of the kingdoms of Thedas for hundreds of years. Although the system was flawed like so many others, it wasn't a failure as it lasted a very long time.
The will always be conflict, even without mages in this you are right, but killing the mages isn't going to solve anything.

#1392
anmale89

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I don't care what mages want anymore, I want to destroy them with all demons that came to Thedas. Even if templars are behind the demon invasion I want them to join me, That's what my Inquisition will be, an organisation hunting mages down and executing them. I don't want to save the world, I want to conquer it and rule it as I please. If any mage offers me help, I refuse and execute him, I don't neet any fictional religion to dislike mages. Cole will return to Fade, dead should remain dead. Yavana said with death of dragons, it'll be a death of humans and Sandla had his delusioned prophecy, but I don't care what they say and I don't take prophecies seriously. Demons, dragons, mages all will be destroyed by me, because I want this and they all won't survive to see if the world is doomed or not.

#1393
DarkKnightHolmes

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anmale89 wrote...

I don't care what mages want anymore, I want to destroy them with all demons that came to Thedas. Even if templars are behind the demon invasion I want them to join me, That's what my Inquisition will be, an organisation hunting mages down and executing them. I don't want to save the world, I want to conquer it and rule it as I please. If any mage offers me help, I refuse and execute him, I don't neet any fictional religion to dislike mages. Cole will return to Fade, dead should remain dead. Yavana said with death of dragons, it'll be a death of humans and Sandla had his delusioned prophecy, but I don't care what they say and I don't take prophecies seriously. Demons, dragons, mages all will be destroyed by me, because I want this and they all won't survive to see if the world is doomed or not.


I can see your playthrough being pretty boring without a mage in your team.

#1394
Ieldra

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anmale89 wrote...
I don't care what mages want anymore, I want to destroy them with all demons that came to Thedas. Even if templars are behind the demon invasion I want them to join me, That's what my Inquisition will be, an organisation hunting mages down and executing them. I don't want to save the world, I want to conquer it and rule it as I please. If any mage offers me help, I refuse and execute him, I don't neet any fictional religion to dislike mages. Cole will return to Fade, dead should remain dead. Yavana said with death of dragons, it'll be a death of humans and Sandla had his delusioned prophecy, but I don't care what they say and I don't take prophecies seriously. Demons, dragons, mages all will be destroyed by me, because I want this and they all won't survive to see if the world is doomed or not.

I wonder if DAI will let us play an evil megalomaniac like this...

#1395
TTTX

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Ollys wrote... 
Mages vote to separate from chantry and start revolution, so they was not innocent. Basically, she went full renegade and support her enemies. So she faild to protect non mages from mages, what is templar main mission. Also she  was driven mostly not by logic, but emotions with "ma luv!"

They were about to vote about it when Lambert attacked, but it wasn't decided until the mages escaped and held a new vote.

It was then decide, by one vote, it wasn't all them that said "let's go to war".

#1396
anmale89

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@Ieldra2, I wrote that, because I'm bored of supporting mages and their cause. What made me switch sides the most is repetetive propaganda of players fanatically supporting mages. I want those players to know there is at least one, who disagrees with them. If my plans seem like plans of an evil megalomaniac, then they are not more evil than plans of Alexander the Great or Gaius Julius Cesar or Napoleon Bonaparte. I no longer want selflessly fight for cause of someone, I want to fight for my own profits.

#1397
DarkKnightHolmes

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anmale89 wrote...

@Ieldra2, I wrote that, because I'm bored of supporting mages and their cause. What made me switch sides the most is repetetive propaganda of players fanatically supporting mages. I want those players to know there is at least one, who disagrees with them. If my plans seem like plans of an evil megalomaniac, then they are not more evil than plans of Alexander the Great or Gaius Julius Cesar or Napoleon Bonaparte. I no longer want selflessly fight for cause of someone, I want to fight for my own profits.


A true selflessly fighter out for his own profit would kill both mages and templar in his way.

I'm just saying.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 03 septembre 2013 - 04:16 .


#1398
anmale89

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@DarkKnightHolmes, I became like that because repetetive propagandas of players fanatically supporting mages made me sick.

#1399
Lord Raijin

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TTTX wrote...
Unless they don't have choice.

Templars need lyrium to use their abilities  and since most of them have broken away from the chantry, which controls the lyrium trade, well they either to make lyrium supply lines of their own (which can be sabotaged) or use something that can eleminate the need to take regular lyrium in order to use ones abillities.

Red lyrium can do that (and more as seen with Merredith) since it's way more powerful and the templars don't know what happens when a mage is exposed to it, so you can see why some templars would chose to try get Red lyrium and use it.


According to Alistair in DA:O Templars do not need lyrium to develop their templar ability. While lyirum maybe more effective in the ability, the fact to the matter is every warrior can develop templar skills if they truly have the desire and the displicine.

#1400
MisterJB

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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
The war started because Lambert was going to execute Rhys. Not tranquil or kept in prison for ever but actually execute him. Lambert knew about Cole but he still wanted to frame a mage for all this. He wanted Rhys to admit he was a blood mage when he clearly wasn't.

You should reread the book. First, what Lambert wants Rhys to do is confess that he has been commiting the murders under the sway of a demon which he actually had. All evidence points in that direction; such as the murders only starting after Rhys met Cole; and, at the end of the book, Rhys even admits that there is a good chance Cole was controlling him without knowledge. And we know Cole is not of Thedas.
Lambert was rigth all along and he only threatens to murder Rhys and the First Enchanters only if Rhys didn't confess. This would have made the rebellion sound like the wills of a demon.
And why was there a need to do this? Because Fiona hijacked a meeting destined to discuss what was to be done with the Rite of Tranquility; an olive branch by the Chantry; in order to propose world war and because Adrain killed Pharamond and planted evidence.
Does that exempt Lambert of all guilt? No but it shows that we can go further back in order to find a culprit for this war.

But, bottom line, had Evangeline&Co stayed put, Lambert would have controlled the mages and there would have been no rebellion.

Wynne just went back because she wanted to save her son from lies and their is even as scene where she is angry enough to kill anyone who stands in her but Evangeline destroys her staff to stop her. If Evangeline really was a traitor she could have easily let Wynne go on a rampage and kill every Templar. Wynne was actually pro-chantry and pro-templar before her son was about to wrongly murdered.

I don't begrudge mages like Wynne for placing their needs above that of others, it's just the nature of the world. I dislike them when they do this but that's all.
On the other hand, unless Evangeline is capable of policing every mage in the continent by her lonely self, then aiding in the escape of hundreds of mages who now obey to nu authority but their own and are free to do whatever they wish to whomever they wish whenever they wish is a betrayal of the highest order.
Wynne stood by her people, I can understand that. Wynne and Leliana and Justinia betrayed theirs.

Leliana helped because she is the left hand of the divine and Lambert is now a traitor because he didn't follow orders and she is a friend of Wynne.

Lambert could have been court-martialed after things had settled down. His actions, at least, had no one interfered, would have lead to the containment of mages and the protection of the people. Leliana's and the Divine's will lead to the deaths of thousands.

Cole doesn't even know what's happening and his only objective is to save Rhys. Nothinge else matters.

He isn't malicious but he still helped start this war. Perhaps more than any other.

And Shale....... well why the hell would she give a damn about templars or mage? She's just their to crack any head Wynne asks her to.

I wish my Warden had been there. Then we could see to whom Shale was truly loyal.

And no, Evangeline and Wynne didn't free the mages. It was Leliana and Cole. So yes, I can understand why templar supporters are angry with Leliana but there is no need to blame Evangeline for that one.

They might have been separate in two groups but they are both equality guilty since they worked towards the same plan. Free the mages. Evangeline was even part of the group that destroyed the Phylactery Room.

Also you know why the mages have gone to war? Because they asked Rhys in the end.
You know why Rhys decided to go to war even though he didn't want to at first? Because his mother was dead.
You know why his mother was dead? Because she gave her self to bring Evangeline from death.
You know why Evangeline died? Because Lambert killed her.

Rhys was a Libertarian from the very beginning. He, unlike Adrians, might have some boundaries and doubts but he never spoke against war.

And well your Warden might feel disgraced or whatever but my Warden would have gladly stood with them all to save an innocent man. Hell, my Warden would have killed Lambert himself.

Mine would have requested the presence of Templars to speak for the non-mages at the conclave because their lives would be affected as well. Failing that, he would have advised Lambert against intefering. Had the mages voted for separation, he would have advised to use the Templars to stand as a human shield between the mages and Val-Royeaux; to not move an inch but to not attack first. Falling all that, he would have fought by Lambert's side against Rhys and his cohorts.
Better a few dozen enchanters die than the thousands of innocents that will in this war.