1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

Steelcan wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
The Dales had mages too Ferelden,Tevinter and Orlais still handed them their asses on a  silver platter.

But now only the Dalish have mages.

No mages in Tevinter?

In a speculative world where all nations rid themselves of mages, only those without a nation will have them.

Modifié par Taleroth, 20 août 2013 - 04:41 .

[Star fury]

AresKeith wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Cerberus was always the same, just hiding its face from you. If the templars turn out to be the same, as seems likely... oh, 'twill be delicious. Also, you'll never succeed in your plan; the mage class will always be open to players.

People just didn't play ME1 and they think that Cerberus from ME2 was the true one. They apparently don't know about admiral Kahoku, experiments on rachni and thresher maws etc. 

There is also a problem of two very different partrayals of templars in DAO and DA2. DAO templars were reasonable  with exceptions. DA2 templars were a buch of psychopaths with exceptions.

So were most of the mages

And that was one of the biggest problems of the game. 

[AresKeith]

The Templars need Haytham Kenway leading them

[Shaftell]

devSin wrote...

The templars are not a terrorist organization, no.

But I'd suppose they have become too extreme to plausibly return to any sort of legitimate effectiveness (and I think that's more in line with the actual statements than some cartoonish evil empire).

Cerberus didn't believe themselves to be a terrorist organization either. But honestly, in the face of it, the Templars are carrying acts of terrorism.

[Shadow Fox]

And Orlais has Grey Wardens your point?

[dragonflight288]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

He cared enough to give Elthina a merciful death. She deserves much worse. She deserves to be made to suffer the way that both mages and mundanes of Kirkwall have suffered due to her negligence.

This is twisted, Plaintiff.

You really believe that two wrongs make a right?

It depends on the situation. The fact is she was largely responsible for allowing things to go so unstable that it pushed an apostate to take drastic action. Had Elthina acted like a Grand Cleric and not as everyone's biolgical mother then perhabs things would've been a lot different. Elthina was a terrible Grand Cleric and at one point she starts to show her arrogence by saying "I'm Grand Cleric... who would dare harm me?"

It depends on the situation? i disagree, it does not depend on the situation. Two wrongs don't ever make a right.

This is the reason why I can't ever agree with the mage supporters--at the end of the day, the moral high ground that they claim is destroyed by this mindset.

Not every mage supporter claims the moral high-ground. Many, like myself, call for punishing mages who commit crimes with a punishment equal to the crime. I myself actually advocate using the Rite of Tranquility in the case of blood mages using their mind dominating powers. Makes sense, if you would deprive someone of free-will for your own reasons, then you should not complain when you lose your sense of free-will and serve the community as a whole.

However, the main reason I can't support templars is ultimately the corruption in the order itself is so strong that it permeates nearly every level of power, so the guilty and the corrupt remain unpunished. And innocent mages are punished alongside the guilty.

Punish the guilty, and only the guilty. In the case of Kirkwall as an example, if Meredith held a public trial and execution of Anders, and then locked down the Gallows until a thorough search was done to insure that Anders had no co-conspirators or sympathizers planning to become copycats, but also to keep a mob from forming and killing mages in rage over Elthina's death, then I would've sided with her in a hearbeat without question.

As it is, she only attempts to justify the Annulment, not by saying the Circle is corrupt, not by saying she is hunting blood mages, but her only justification is "that the people will demand blood."

When Inquisition comes out, I'm almost positive there will be times where I will want to strangle mages, just as much as I'm sure I'm going to want to bludgeon a templar, and I'll take it moment by moment.

Leave out the emotion, and take only the circumstance itself. If a templar hunts an apostate, and that apostate goes all blood mage and summons demons, then that apostate ought to die, but if they are hunting a child, and we know that child is not an apostate (Aneirin), yet they run him through anyway, then those templars in question ought to be punished, investigated, and stripped of authority.

Granted, we don't know the circumstances with Aneirin. It could be that those templars in particular simply hated elves and wanted to kill him. It could be they were the more zealous kind and simply figured one less mage in the world. It could be that they had a conflict with a dalish clan, and simply tried to kill him and call it good so they could get out of there as fast as they could.

Information gathering is as important in deciding who is in the right and the wrong as is accepting a moral highground that both mage and templar supporters claim.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Lord Raijin wrote...

How can a mage expect to live in a
world where people are programed by the Chantry to fear and hate them? I
don't condone what Anders did, but I can fully reason with him for
doing it. People will do anything in a desperate situation.

It depends on the situation. The fact is she was largely responsible for allowing things to go so unstable that it pushed an apostate to take drastic action.

Elthina was playing a sick game. By Chantry law she is in
charge of the Templars in her hold therefour she has to side with the
Templars no matter what. Even Cullen acknowledge that what Elthina was
doing to the mages was cruel... by letting them have false hope.

I don't think Elthina was anything but earnest in her desire to appease both sides because she thought that was what would stop the escalation. After the Act 3 intro she says she's going to try to talk sense into Orsinio and Meredith. They obviously ignored her. And she might have even been right in the end if it wasn't for Anders or the idol, I guess we'll never know.

Anders was desperate but he wasn't desperate to resolve the crisis. He wanted it to get worse, which is why he forced it to end only in bloodshed. Otherwise, if the Meredith/Orsinio rivalry had boiled over to the point where it became impossible to ignore, Elthia and Hawke might have been able to force a compromise.

He was desperate for war and death. He wanted a massacre so the mages would kill the templars and be free, or failing that the templars to kill all the mages and get the oppression over with.

In fact his motives are basically like a reverse Saren. "Is extinction not preferable to submission?"

And if the people of Thedas feared and despied them before, after Anders' terrorism it's going to be much worse. All he's done is ensure the world mages live in is more hostile to them than ever.

That's why I never really blame Elthina for what Anders did. Yes the situation was bad, but he didn't actually want to make it better, he decided to make it worse.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 août 2013 - 04:58 .

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
'Full-on crazy' has dominated the characterization of mages and Templars though.

People like Wynne and Iriving seemed pretty sane. The problem with the templars, IMO, is that the only sane one we've had is Gregoire, and you don't really catch him in a good situation or from a more neutral perspective. He's also only good by comparison. 

[dragonflight288]

Morocco Mole wrote...

In Exile wrote...

People like Wynne and Iriving seemed pretty sane. The problem with the templars, IMO, is that the only sane one we've had is Gregoire, and you don't really catch him in a good situation or from a more neutral perspective. He's also only good by comparison. 

There aren't many sane mages either. Which is the biggest issue with the conflict in DA2. Both sides are such caricatures that you just can't relate or care about them outside of an arbitrary choice at the end.

There aren't many sane mages in DA2, but there are plenty in Origins. From the blood mage who goes into a pity-party and talks about only wanting to free herself of the Chantry, Godwin the lyrium smuggler who's perfectly sane and simply out to make a profit, Jowan is sane, just super-incompetent and has a massive case of bad judgement disorder....and I dare anyone on the Forums to say that Morrigan is an insane caricature.

Nial telling us that Uldred was overtaken by the demon when he summoned so many of them when he realized he wouldn't be able to get the circle to back Loghain, and thus the Uldred we meet isn't actually him, but merely a pride demon.

DA2's problem was that it was rushed, and had a lot of bad writing. If you played as a mage, or pro-mage, most of Act 3 makes absolutely no sense at all.

Hopefully, with the year long delay, the issues that plagued Hawke's legacy will not be present.

[Ausstig]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra being crazy again?

Compared to Plaintiff, Xil is resonable. 

[AresKeith]

Morocco Mole wrote...

In Exile wrote...

People like Wynne and Iriving seemed pretty sane. The problem with the templars, IMO, is that the only sane one we've had is Gregoire, and you don't really catch him in a good situation or from a more neutral perspective. He's also only good by comparison. 

There aren't many sane mages either. Which is the biggest issue with the conflict in DA2. Both sides are such caricatures that you just can't relate or care about them outside of an arbitrary choice at the end.

Hopefully Sebastian burns Kirkwall to the ground in DA:I

[Direwolf0294]

AresKeith wrote...

The Templars need Haytham Kenway leading them

I wouldn't say no to this. The man had class.

[Zazzerka]

AresKeith wrote...

Hopefully Sebastian burns Kirkwall to the ground in DA:I

I'd rather the mages burn Sebastian to the ground.

[AresKeith]

Zazzerka wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Hopefully Sebastian burns Kirkwall to the ground in DA:I

I'd rather the mages burn Sebastian to the ground.

He'll burn when he's done being a pawn 

[Cainhurst Crow]

In Exile wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
'Full-on crazy' has dominated the characterization of mages and Templars though.

People like Wynne and Iriving seemed pretty sane. The problem with the templars, IMO, is that the only sane one we've had is Gregoire, and you don't really catch him in a good situation or from a more neutral perspective. He's also only good by comparison. 

Cullen was pretty sane, even after everything he'd be through. He didn't go all iron giant mansly on gregors order and say something to the effect of "LAUCH THE MISSLE NOW!!!!!", he stood down when ordered to and doesn't seem to try anything afterwars like a coup. Even after being transfered to kirkwall he seems like the lesser of all the other extremes. Not to mention trask, who was a templar in the other direction to cullen in trusting mages so much he sided with a damn crazy blood mage and payed for it. And unlike the other templars cullen actually stands up to meredith's crazy when she ends up going way off the deepend.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

How can a mage expect to live in a
world where people are programed by the Chantry to fear and hate them? I
don't condone what Anders did, but I can fully reason with him for
doing it. People will do anything in a desperate situation.

It depends on the situation. The fact is she was largely responsible for allowing things to go so unstable that it pushed an apostate to take drastic action.

Elthina was playing a sick game. By Chantry law she is in
charge of the Templars in her hold therefour she has to side with the
Templars no matter what. Even Cullen acknowledge that what Elthina was
doing to the mages was cruel... by letting them have false hope.

I don't think Elthina was anything but earnest in her desire to appease both sides because she thought that was what would stop the escalation. After the Act 3 intro she says she's going to try to talk sense into Orsinio and Meredith. They obviously ignored her. And she might have even been right in the end if it wasn't for Anders or the idol, I guess we'll never know.

Anders was desperate but he wasn't desperate to resolve the crisis. He wanted it to get worse, which is why he forced it to end only in bloodshed. Otherwise, if the Meredith/Orsinio rivalry had boiled over to the point where it became impossible to ignore, Elthia and Hawke might have been able to force a compromise.

He was desperate for war and death. He wanted a massacre so the mages would kill the templars and be free, or failing that the templars to kill all the mages and get the oppression over with.

In fact his motives are basically like a reverse Saren. "Is extinction not preferable to submission?"

And if the people of Thedas feared and despied them before, after Anders' terrorism it's going to be much worse. All he's done is ensure the world mages live in is more hostile to them than ever.

That's why I never really blame Elthina for what Anders did. Yes the situation was bad, but he didn't actually want to make it better, he decided to make it worse.

Not only that, but anders little stunt has ensured the tevinter imperium, a society even worse in abuse, segregation, oppression, and corruption, than any other country in thedas, a massive boost in magic weilding citizens. These people won't find welcome doors and open arms in the imperium though, I think they'd rather loath foreigners in their society, mage or not. They'll either be forcibly conscripted into being frontline fights agains the qunari, used as blood sacrifices for the more powerful mages, or may rise in the ranks if they're ruthless enough to play the game of murder and betrayl  that is mage politics.

He's made the thedas mages lambs, going to the slaughter outside the imperium, or going to the slaughter that is the imperium. Either way, he's a bastard, and I'm glad I finally saw through the bond of friendship that I used to share with him and kill him in every playthrough but my intentionally evil one.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Wait what?
I ban DA:I if it will be this way.

[dragonflight288]

Ausstig wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra being crazy again?

Compared to Plaintiff, Xil is resonable. 

But does that take away what is being said?

Strictly on the basis of facts, removing emotion from the equation. Elthina appointed Meredith to become Knight-Commander of the templars, and Elthina was involved in deposing the original viscount before Dumar rose to being a glorified puppet of Meredith (based on the Guardsman before we even begin Act 1, when Hawke is trying to enter Kirkwall.)

The devs have said that the the templars answer to the Chantry, especially the Grand Cleric who oversees all chantry organizations within their region. Ser Bryant served the Revered Mother in Lothering, and she was his direct superior.

Also take into account that Chantry isn't considered a completely religious organization. In the Stolen Throne novel, Maric and Loghain were only a hair away from kicking the Chantry out of Ferelden entirely because they, the Grand Cleric and the templars, were considered more of an Orlesisan organization than a religious one, and if yo study the codex entries throughout history, this is shown to be true.

Taking all this into account, Elthina truly is the direct superior of Meredith. Elthina wasn't a military person, but she did have the authority to remove Meredith from power, and it was her duty to do so when Meredith started overstepping her authority.

Becoming the defacto Viscount, and then keeping the nobles from choosing a new one, outright declaring that the only one who could decide when Meredith should step down is Meredith herself, having a death squad killing non-mages in broad daylight without trial or due process. The fact that Kirkwall has a magistrate and a city guard means that there is a due process, and the templars were way ot of line in Kirkwall.

Elthina may not command the templars, but she most certainly had the power, authority, and moral obligation to remove Meredith from power the moment it became apparent that Meredith was no longer suited to have it.

Was she involved? There's no evidence for or against, but there is a lot of implications that she isn't an innocent bystander.

1.) Her seal is used to great effect in Act 2 against the Qunari. Mother Petrice tries to frame Hawke for murder in the Chantry, but sounds absolutely shocked when Elthina drops her like a sack of potatoes, saying she needs to face justice....and doesn't even bat an eye when Petrice is assassinated by the Qunari immediately after.
2.) She can be shown evidence in Act 2 regarding Alrik's Tranquil Solution...and barely looks at it and dismisses it, while questioning how Hawke came into evidence that (s)he shouldn't have because of Alrik's murder.
3.) Meredith never once mentions about how to reason with Meredith. She says Orsino is not unreasonable, and enters discussions with him, but she never mentions Meredith. 

In the third one, it could be said that Elthina knew Meredith wasn't reasonable and so talking to her was out of the question, and if that's the case, then why didn't Elthina dismiss Meredith? She did have the power and authority. Had she given the order, Cullen would've relieved Meredith of command and the templars would no longer follow Meredith's orders.

From a strictly logical point of view, Elthina is either incompetent, out-of-touch, passively supports Meredith, or is playing a malicious game and is trying to appear the wise, spiritual one and appearing reasonable while covertly supporting Meredith from behind the scenes.

Again, there's no evidence of this, but these events cannot be dismissed, and therefore their implications shouldn't be dismissed either.

I've been playing Dragon Commander on my PC lately, and i think a quote works well here.

"When you're in the positions where you interact with the powers that be, distrust is your best friend, followed by its brother, caution."

Elthina was a political force, even if she wasn't an active one, and there's enough implications throughout the game that does make her suspect.

Did she deserve death? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how much is true and how much is it me simply reading too much into it. But was she a legitimate military target? Now that question is easier to answer.

As she had power over templars, and had been involved in deposing the previous monarch, and had the power to give the viscount seat back to the city by keeping Meredith from it, under all military strategic sense, she is a legitimate target....whether or not that's the moral choice is completely different.

[Cainhurst Crow]

This should have all been said in a mission in DA2, or at least more strongly put into the spotlight by the characters. Maybe that was the original plan, for mother elthina to be the true person behind kirkwall's instability and the chantry being blown up a bigger part of the plot than it already was. Maybe she was meant to be more a palpatine like figure in the game, and meredith merely another pawn.

If that is the case, the devs did a horrible job at covering the tracks of their new plotline, probably due to time constraints or a lack of clear vision for the story's conclusion. In either case, I would have loved a mission where we expose the cleric, and we need to choose weather to end their reign or continue to enforce it by picking either anders or sebastions side.

[Kalas Magnus]

mass effect and dragon age are different games.

[Shadow Fox]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This should have all been said in a mission in DA2, or at least more strongly put into the spotlight by the characters. Maybe that was the original plan, for mother elthina to be the true person behind kirkwall's instability and the chantry being blown up a bigger part of the plot than it already was. Maybe she was meant to be more a palpatine like figure in the game, and meredith merely another pawn.

If that is the case, the devs did a horrible job at covering the tracks of their new plotline, probably due to time constraints or a lack of clear vision for the story's conclusion. In either case, I would have loved a mission where we expose the cleric, and we need to choose weather to end their reign or continue to enforce it by picking either anders or sebastions side.

So Meredith is Dooku and Sebastion Anakin?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This should have all been said in a mission in DA2, or at least more strongly put into the spotlight by the characters. Maybe that was the original plan, for mother elthina to be the true person behind kirkwall's instability and the chantry being blown up a bigger part of the plot than it already was. Maybe she was meant to be more a palpatine like figure in the game, and meredith merely another pawn.

If that is the case, the devs did a horrible job at covering the tracks of their new plotline, probably due to time constraints or a lack of clear vision for the story's conclusion. In either case, I would have loved a mission where we expose the cleric, and we need to choose weather to end their reign or continue to enforce it by picking either anders or sebastions side.

So Meredith is Dooku and Sebastion Anakin?

[Shadow Fox]

Can't wait to see Dark Archer in DA3 then.:lol
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 20 août 2013 - 07:28 .