1470 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Kalas Magnus wrote...

mass effect and dragon age are different games.

And?

[Ieldra]

@OP:
I certainly hope not. I favor the mages, but the interesting part of this conflict is that both sides have a point. Between Ser Alrik and Quentin, both sides showed their worst in DA2, and I don't see anything worse in the DAI info. Templars may be split and some out of control, but I get the impression that a more reasonable face of the templars' side will also be shown, just as not every second mage will turn out a crazy madman as it was in DA2.

[Kidd]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Don't forget that the templars also split into two camps after Lambert separated them from the Chantry. You've got your rebelled ones who left with Lambert and your Divine loyal ones.

So, like Cerberus and Ex-Cerberus in ME3?

Perhaps Jennifer Hale will voice an Ex-Templar leading a group of Ex-Templar refugees.

Jennifer Hale voicing Evangeline out on a mission to recruit other ex-templars?

My mind is blown with glee. 

[Jackums]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I think the Chantry and the Templars deserve to be portrayed exactly as they have been - which would be overbearing, religiously intolerant, intrusive, and manipulative - with an amazing tendency to overstep their bounds.

[Jackums]

MisterJB wrote...

The universe is an uncaring and cold place, there is no God, 1% of the population hold 99% of the wealth, love is only lust combined with reproduction instincts and if someone does something good it's only because part of our brains release a chemical when it happens that makes us feel good.
Basically, life is hard. Doesn't mean we should kill people when it becomes convenient.

By your own logic, there is no objective right or wrong, and therefore your arguments against the mages based on their "crimes" and potential to cause bloodshed are rendered weightless. Similarly, so are arguments against the Templars. The acts of both factions are neither right nor wrong. They simply are. As such, I'd be totally justified in supporting mage supremacy based on the fact that they are superior to the mundanes, and you'd only be able to disagree based on personal preference for the Templars.

In fact, I agree completely with this philosophy.

[Ausstig]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra being crazy again?

Compared to Plaintiff, Xil is resonable. 

1. But does that take away what is being said?

2. Strictly on the basis of facts, removing emotion from the equation. Elthina appointed Meredith to become Knight-Commander of the templars, and Elthina was involved in deposing the original viscount before Dumar rose to being a glorified puppet of Meredith (based on the Guardsman before we even begin Act 1, when Hawke is trying to enter Kirkwall.)

The devs have said that the the templars answer to the Chantry, especially the Grand Cleric who oversees all chantry organizations within their region. Ser Bryant served the Revered Mother in Lothering, and she was his direct superior.

Also take into account that Chantry isn't considered a completely religious organization. In the Stolen Throne novel, Maric and Loghain were only a hair away from kicking the Chantry out of Ferelden entirely because they, the Grand Cleric and the templars, were considered more of an Orlesisan organization than a religious one, and if yo study the codex entries throughout history, this is shown to be true.

Taking all this into account, Elthina truly is the direct superior of Meredith. Elthina wasn't a military person, but she did have the authority to remove Meredith from power, and it was her duty to do so when Meredith started overstepping her authority.

Becoming the defacto Viscount, and then keeping the nobles from choosing a new one, outright declaring that the only one who could decide when Meredith should step down is Meredith herself, having a death squad killing non-mages in broad daylight without trial or due process. The fact that Kirkwall has a magistrate and a city guard means that there is a due process, and the templars were way ot of line in Kirkwall.

Elthina may not command the templars, but she most certainly had the power, authority, and moral obligation to remove Meredith from power the moment it became apparent that Meredith was no longer suited to have it.

Was she involved? There's no evidence for or against, but there is a lot of implications that she isn't an innocent bystander.

1.) Her seal is used to great effect in Act 2 against the Qunari. Mother Petrice tries to frame Hawke for murder in the Chantry, but sounds absolutely shocked when Elthina drops her like a sack of potatoes, saying she needs to face justice....and doesn't even bat an eye when Petrice is assassinated by the Qunari immediately after.
2.) She can be shown evidence in Act 2 regarding Alrik's Tranquil Solution...and barely looks at it and dismisses it, while questioning how Hawke came into evidence that (s)he shouldn't have because of Alrik's murder.
3.) Meredith never once mentions about how to reason with Meredith. She says Orsino is not unreasonable, and enters discussions with him, but she never mentions Meredith. 

In the third one, it could be said that Elthina knew Meredith wasn't reasonable and so talking to her was out of the question, and if that's the case, then why didn't Elthina dismiss Meredith? She did have the power and authority. Had she given the order, Cullen would've relieved Meredith of command and the templars would no longer follow Meredith's orders.

From a strictly logical point of view, Elthina is either incompetent, out-of-touch, passively supports Meredith, or is playing a malicious game and is trying to appear the wise, spiritual one and appearing reasonable while covertly supporting Meredith from behind the scenes.

Again, there's no evidence of this, but these events cannot be dismissed, and therefore their implications shouldn't be dismissed either.

I've been playing Dragon Commander on my PC lately, and i think a quote works well here.

"When you're in the positions where you interact with the powers that be, distrust is your best friend, followed by its brother, caution."

Elthina was a political force, even if she wasn't an active one, and there's enough implications throughout the game that does make her suspect.

Did she deserve death? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how much is true and how much is it me simply reading too much into it. But was she a legitimate military target? Now that question is easier to answer.

As she had power over templars, and had been involved in deposing the previous monarch, and had the power to give the viscount seat back to the city by keeping Meredith from it, under all military strategic sense, she is a legitimate target....whether or not that's the moral choice is completely different.

1. Yes. 

2. Where did you get that? Meredith took comand of the Templars after the Viscount hanged the last Knight-Commander, she then stormmed the Keep and captured him. Appointing her leader at that time was the only senseable thing to do. When take down a popular leader then tend to be a destablising influence unless you totally remove them.

3. So on very limited evidence, you would condem her to death? Do you think the US Pres should be killed for the actions of troops in Iraq? ( or put on trial) or Vietnam? So you would also consider supports of a side legitimate target?

The Templars are a semi-indepenant organisation, as they have a legal recourse to leave, which they do after the game. Elthina is Merediths superior  in the same way the Queen is the superior to the NZ PM, she can get rid of them but only under certian events. 

I also don't think she could have gotten ride of Meredith, given how she came to power and got a lot of the order to follow her, she may have commanded too much respect. Aslo how does one remove a KC?

I don't think she is a military traget. She is a political and spritual target. Which is what Anders was attacking. Anders was not starting a war, if he wanted to do that he would have tried raising an army, he wanted to attack something that would stop an chance of a peaceful end to tensio, he wanted to make people feel fear and did not care who he killed.  

[The Elder King]

Oh, another mage-templar thread. I missed reading one. It always makes me laugh.
On topic, I got the impression from the interview that they'll try to make both sides (three counting the Chantry) less "bad" than they was in DA2 (and they were both bad, regardless of what someone could say). I'm not sure that making them that bad was intended (at least for the templars, since I recall that they already said that the mage's portrayal was intended to make some people wanting to side with the templars), but I'm glad that they aknowledged that their portrayals in DA2 wasn't the norm for both side.
As for templar=Cerberus, I doubt that it'll happen. DAI seems to have a lof of different factions (mages, templars, Chantry and/or seekers, wardens, fereldans, probably two different factions of orlesians, maybe tevinters, dwarves and elves), and I doubt that any of those will get the Cerberus treatment and the main supporter of the main antagonist. And in the prior interviews Darrah said that you'll have the freedom to choose your belief about magic/mages. Considering that they seems to develop the Chantry's and the templar's belief as different (the former more moderate than the latter), I think the players will have the options to decide what to believe and show which side he would support.

[Lord Raijin]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think Elthina was anything but earnest in her desire to appease both sides because she thought that was what would stop the escalation. After the Act 3 intro she says she's going to try to talk sense into Orsinio and Meredith. They obviously ignored her. And she might have even been right in the end if it wasn't for Anders or the idol, I guess we'll never know.

Anders was desperate but he wasn't desperate to resolve the crisis. He wanted it to get worse, which is why he forced it to end only in bloodshed. Otherwise, if the Meredith/Orsinio rivalry had boiled over to the point where it became impossible to ignore, Elthia and Hawke might have been able to force a compromise.

He was desperate for war and death. He wanted a massacre so the mages would kill the templars and be free, or failing that the templars to kill all the mages and get the oppression over with.

In fact his motives are basically like a reverse Saren. "Is extinction not preferable to submission?"

And if the people of Thedas feared and despied them before, after Anders' terrorism it's going to be much worse. All he's done is ensure the world mages live in is more hostile to them than ever.

That's why I never really blame Elthina for what Anders did. Yes the situation was bad, but he didn't actually want to make it better, he decided to make it worse.

The problem with ACT 3 is that Elthina treated Meredith more like a daughter than someone who works for her, and thats a big no no. Orsino clearly expresses his frustrations in public, as it is his job to advocate for his fellow mages, and Elthina was not one bit supportive for him, but that was to be expected since it would be foolish of Elthina to turn against her Templars.

Put Orsinos robes on for a moment. Have someone like Meredith, who not afraid to exhibit their deep hatred for your kind. Try working with someone like her every single day 24/7. You're unable to quit your job because that is not an option, since you're essentially confined in the circle. Theirs so much that you can put up with until you finally explode... which is what he did when he turned into a harvester. Orsino did not ignore Elthina.. she ignored him.

About Anders. The Templars in Kirkwall was forcing mages to turn to blood magic as the last opinion for defending themselves against their abusers. Anders was forced to kill his best-friend and former lover once he discovered that he was illegally made tranquil, which goes against the Chantry's laws. Once justice was done, after killing Ser Alrik, Elthina had the audacity to label it as murder. She obviously did not approve of this course of action, and would rather see him continue with his agenda to make every circle mage in Thedas Tranquil.

Someone has to step up and defend the mages... because Elthina was not.

The city was already on the verge of war with or without Anders assistant. The Circle mages were not only being sexually abused but also physically abused as well. It was only time when the city gets polluted with Abominations.

[Lord Raijin]

o Ventus wrote...

Kalas Magnus wrote...

mass effect and dragon age are different games.

And?

Mass effect related discussions should be taken to the mass Effect threads, not DA.

[dragonflight288]

1. Yes.

Well, Plaintiff most certainly could've used some tact, and explained his positions better, but when looked at from a strictly logical sense only, removing all emotion from the equation, you can see that Elthina isn't an innocent bystander. Whether or not she deserves death is another matter.

2. Where did you get that? Meredith took comand of the Templars after the Viscount hanged the last Knight-Commander, she then stormmed the Keep and captured him. Appointing her leader at that time was the only senseable thing to do. When take down a popular leader then tend to be a destablising influence unless you totally remove them.

Meredith's codex entry.

"Codex Entry: Knight-Commander Meredith

"I have sympathy for the mages. They bear a terrible curse-one that endangers not only themselves but innocents as well. We allow them freedom only at the risk of unleashing them upon the unwary."

Knight-Commander Meredith Stannard is a native of Kirkwall. An orphan who joined the Templar Order when quite young, she worked her way up the ranks by merit of sheer determination. She is credited with removing the previous viscount, Perrin Threnhold, from his position after he attempted to have the templars expelled from the city in 9:21 Dragon. The acting knight-commander was arrested and executed, and Meredith led a group of templars into the heart of the Keep to capture Threnhold. He was tried and imprisoned three days later by Grand Cleric Elthina and died from poisoning two years later. Meredith was subsequently elevated to her current position.

Many say the templars fought only to preserve their own position in Kirkwall, not to oppose Threnhold's tyranny. Others believe Meredith has always held the moral high ground, even if not all approve of her methods. For now, she enjoys the grand cleric's full support and has free rein in Kirkwall as the commander of its most powerful military force. "

I bolded the important parts regarding Meredith, and underlined the part where Elthina's involvement came into play.

3. So on very limited evidence, you would condem her to death? Do you think the US Pres should be killed for the actions of troops in Iraq? ( or put on trial) or Vietnam? So you would also consider supports of a side legitimate target?

Please don't add inference into what I said. I was not condemning her to death. What I was doing was showing there is reason to believe she is involved in some way, and I probably should've said we should've had the option to investigate her, and tried to show how her involvement with Meredith, from a strictly militaristic point of view, makes a valid target.

At the very end of what I said, I also said that whether or not that's the moral thing to do is another matter entirely.

The Templars are a semi-indepenant organisation, as they have a legal recourse to leave, which they do after the game. Elthina is Merediths superior in the same way the Queen is the superior to the NZ PM, she can get rid of them but only under certian events.

That is true. But it is also true that the Chantry controls the trade with Orzammar when it comes to lyrium, and the templars themselves are addicted to that lyrium. We see in Origins with Imnirick (Howe's dungeon, especially if you have Alistair with you) that if you deprive a templar of lyrium, they go insane, with Samson we see that they can barely function without it, and in extreme cases, templars can die. On the flip-side, take it to long, and they go insane anyway, and are then shipped to Val Reyeaux when they can no longer mentally function.

The templars and seekers existed before the Chantry did, and were brought in because they shared the Chantry's view of magic, and were called the Inquisition back in the day.

They are semi-independent, but now they have left the Chantry....how long can they last without that lyrium? How will they gather enough to feed an army, which is exactly what they are. They'll need a constant source, so that means they have to find a way to make a deal with Orzammar (and thereby will need to gather resources) since smuggling can't work for so many. The options for a rogue army to gather resources are limited, and it almost always comes down to pillaging, looting, and raping their way across the land.

I'm hoping I'm wrong, but that is the most likely scenario.

But what does that have to do with Elthina's involvement with Meredith? Elthina is the Grand Cleric, and as long as the templars are in the Chantry, then Meredith answers directly to Elthina. The devs said that the Rite of Annulment can't be declared by a Knight-Commander. Only the Grand Cleric can authorize it, so that means the priests do have military links.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

I also don't think she could have gotten ride of Meredith, given how she came to power and got a lot of the order to follow her, she may have commanded too much respect. Aslo how does one remove a KC?

Call in the Seekers and say this templar is abusing her authority and accuses everyone and their cat of being blood mages, keeps the city from ruling itself, and is trying to oust the Captain of the Guard in order to solidify power.

Seekers jobs are to investigate templars after all. Or should be.

I don't think she is a military traget. She is a political and spritual target. Which is what Anders was attacking. Anders was not starting a war, if he wanted to do that he would have tried raising an army, he wanted to attack something that would stop an chance of a peaceful end to tensio, he wanted to make people feel fear and did not care who he killed.

Was there a peaceful solution? Truly? If Kerras lives, you will hear him say that Meredith is petitioning the Divine for the Rite of Annulment because Elthina denied her, and is thereby going over her head and is looking for anything she can use. If you side with the templars, Meredith pretty much declares that she wants evidence of Orsino's corruption so she can finally have the proof she needs for Elthina to declare the Rite of Annulment, and when you tell her Orsino isn't involved, she'll dismiss you completely saying you're a blood mages thrall.

Meredith wasn't interested in a peaceful solution, and was actively looking for a way to kill the mages wholesale. Elthina wasn't doing anything to solve the problem.

In Sebastian's quest, Elthina says she is on the side of peace, but she is unwilling to do anything. If you decide to help Anders, Elthina says she can't pick sides, and thereby she refuses to get involved in resolving the problem, and Cullen says that all Elthina was doing was giving mages false hope, and that she ultimately had to side with the templars because they had authority over mages by divine right.

If Elthina was actually working to curtail Meredith, and we see her trying to keep her in line, at least when it comes to the political running of Kirkwall, then I would say that Elthina would be the one person who could bring peace to Kirkwall...but she wasn't, so she isn't.

I at least would have loved to investigate Elthina more thoroughly in-game, and see if Elthina was truly supporting Meredith from the shadows, and is not as innocent as some may think (thanks to the implications I mentioned further up this page) or if she is simply out of touch and thereby incompetent.

That would determine if she is truly a valid military target or not.

[Ausstig]

dragonflight288 wrote...

1. Yes.

Well, Plaintiff most certainly could've used some tact, and explained his positions better, but when looked at from a strictly logical sense only, removing all emotion from the equation, you can see that Elthina isn't an innocent bystander. Whether or not she deserves death is another matter.

2. Where did you get that? Meredith took comand of the Templars after the Viscount hanged the last Knight-Commander, she then stormmed the Keep and captured him. Appointing her leader at that time was the only senseable thing to do. When take down a popular leader then tend to be a destablising influence unless you totally remove them.

Meredith's codex entry.

"Codex Entry: Knight-Commander Meredith

"I have sympathy for the mages. They bear a terrible curse-one that endangers not only themselves but innocents as well. We allow them freedom only at the risk of unleashing them upon the unwary."

Knight-Commander Meredith Stannard is a native of Kirkwall. An orphan who joined the Templar Order when quite young, she worked her way up the ranks by merit of sheer determination. She is credited with removing the previous viscount, Perrin Threnhold, from his position after he attempted to have the templars expelled from the city in 9:21 Dragon. The acting knight-commander was arrested and executed, and Meredith led a group of templars into the heart of the Keep to capture Threnhold. He was tried and imprisoned three days later by Grand Cleric Elthina and died from poisoning two years later. Meredith was subsequently elevated to her current position.

Many say the templars fought only to preserve their own position in Kirkwall, not to oppose Threnhold's tyranny. Others believe Meredith has always held the moral high ground, even if not all approve of her methods. For now, she enjoys the grand cleric's full support and has free rein in Kirkwall as the commander of its most powerful military force. "

I bolded the important parts regarding Meredith, and underlined the part where Elthina's involvement came into play.

3. So on very limited evidence, you would condem her to death? Do you think the US Pres should be killed for the actions of troops in Iraq? ( or put on trial) or Vietnam? So you would also consider supports of a side legitimate target?

Please don't add inference into what I said. I was not condemning her to death. What I was doing was showing there is reason to believe she is involved in some way, and I probably should've said we should've had the option to investigate her, and tried to show how her involvement with Meredith, from a strictly militaristic point of view, makes a valid target.

At the very end of what I said, I also said that whether or not that's the moral thing to do is another matter entirely.

The Templars are a semi-indepenant organisation, as they have a legal recourse to leave, which they do after the game. Elthina is Merediths superior in the same way the Queen is the superior to the NZ PM, she can get rid of them but only under certian events.

That is true. But it is also true that the Chantry controls the trade with Orzammar when it comes to lyrium, and the templars themselves are addicted to that lyrium. We see in Origins with Imnirick (Howe's dungeon, especially if you have Alistair with you) that if you deprive a templar of lyrium, they go insane, with Samson we see that they can barely function without it, and in extreme cases, templars can die. On the flip-side, take it to long, and they go insane anyway, and are then shipped to Val Reyeaux when they can no longer mentally function.

The templars and seekers existed before the Chantry did, and were brought in because they shared the Chantry's view of magic, and were called the Inquisition back in the day.

2. They are semi-independent, but now they have left the Chantry....how long can they last without that lyrium? How will they gather enough to feed an army, which is exactly what they are. They'll need a constant source, so that means they have to find a way to make a deal with Orzammar (and thereby will need to gather resources) since smuggling can't work for so many. The options for a rogue army to gather resources are limited, and it almost always comes down to pillaging, looting, and raping their way across the land.

I'm hoping I'm wrong, but that is the most likely scenario.

But what does that have to do with Elthina's involvement with Meredith? Elthina is the Grand Cleric, and as long as the templars are in the Chantry, then Meredith answers directly to Elthina. The devs said that the Rite of Annulment can't be declared by a Knight-Commander. Only the Grand Cleric can authorize it, so that means the priests do have military links.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

I also don't think she could have gotten ride of Meredith, given how she came to power and got a lot of the order to follow her, she may have commanded too much respect. Aslo how does one remove a KC?

3. Call in the Seekers and say this templar is abusing her authority and accuses everyone and their cat of being blood mages, keeps the city from ruling itself, and is trying to oust the Captain of the Guard in order to solidify power.

Seekers jobs are to investigate templars after all. Or should be.

I don't think she is a military traget. She is a political and spritual target. Which is what Anders was attacking. Anders was not starting a war, if he wanted to do that he would have tried raising an army, he wanted to attack something that would stop an chance of a peaceful end to tensio, he wanted to make people feel fear and did not care who he killed.

4. Was there a peaceful solution? Truly? If Kerras lives, you will hear him say that Meredith is petitioning the Divine for the Rite of Annulment because Elthina denied her, and is thereby going over her head and is looking for anything she can use. If you side with the templars, Meredith pretty much declares that she wants evidence of Orsino's corruption so she can finally have the proof she needs for Elthina to declare the Rite of Annulment, and when you tell her Orsino isn't involved, she'll dismiss you completely saying you're a blood mages thrall.

Meredith wasn't interested in a peaceful solution, and was actively looking for a way to kill the mages wholesale. Elthina wasn't doing anything to solve the problem.

In Sebastian's quest, Elthina says she is on the side of peace, but she is unwilling to do anything. If you decide to help Anders, Elthina says she can't pick sides, and thereby she refuses to get involved in resolving the problem, and Cullen says that all Elthina was doing was giving mages false hope, and that she ultimately had to side with the templars because they had authority over mages by divine right.

If Elthina was actually working to curtail Meredith, and we see her trying to keep her in line, at least when it comes to the political running of Kirkwall, then I would say that Elthina would be the one person who could bring peace to Kirkwall...but she wasn't, so she isn't.

I at least would have loved to investigate Elthina more thoroughly in-game, and see if Elthina was truly supporting Meredith from the shadows, and is not as innocent as some may think (thanks to the implications I mentioned further up this page) or if she is simply out of touch and thereby incompetent.

That would determine if she is truly a valid military target or not.

I underlined what Meredith did.

She lead the group that captured the Viscount. She is the Hero who Overthrew the Tryant. 

Elthina only entered in after that. Just because she presided over the trial does not mean she could have made Meredith stand down. 

2. They can make their own deals, it also depends how large their current stockpiles are nd what suppourt they can get from lords and the common people. They the Templars  as protectors, not mages, Kirkwall (where the nobles did not like their power being threatened) was an exception. 

3. The Divine did send a seeker, who was then attacked by blood mages, and you can ask for a Chantry army to restor order. 

4. There was the chance of  peaceful resolution, remember at this point, no one knew of Orsion's corruption, Meredith only had her hunch, which was right by the way. 

I also assume the Krikwall is an unsual situation due to the vale being so weak, maybe the KC gets more room, then in other less corrupt circles. 

[KainD]

EJ107 wrote...

If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested. It does not matter if they don't fire it. 

I would not, and many more people would not. And that is why these discussions are pointless. 

[Rolling Flame]

KainD wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested. It does not matter if they don't fire it. 

I would not, and many more people would not. And that is why these discussions are pointless. 

Depends on the weapon, really. And who is holding it.

Modifié par Rolling Flame, 20 août 2013 - 02:26 .

[KainD]

Rolling Flame wrote...

Depends on the weapon, really. And who is holding it.

No it doesn't. 

[duckley]

Interesting discussion. I always pegged Elthina as an ineffectual leader who believed in the inherent goodness of humankind. Perhaps she is not as innocent and ineffectual as I thought!. Regardless my belief is that Anders did not have the right to murder her and any others who got caught in the explosion. For me, the end does not justify the means, but that's just my philosophy

But to the question posed by the OP. I do think we will see factions within the Templar ranks so that they will not become Cerberus as a whole, but certainly the more fanatical - lets kill all the Mages -group could be Cerberus- like.

I think we will see Mages play a prominent role in being able to mend the tear in the veil and this will lead to a changed perspective (for the better) of Mages through out Thedas... that is unless Trevinter or another Anders-like character undermines the efforts!

[leaguer of one]

duckley wrote...

Interesting discussion. I always pegged Elthina as an ineffectual leader who believed in the inherent goodness of humankind. Perhaps she is not as innocent and ineffectual as I thought!. Regardless my belief is that Anders did not have the right to murder her and any others who got caught in the explosion. For me, the end does not justify the means, but that's just my philosophy

But to the question posed by the OP. I do think we will see factions within the Templar ranks so that they will not become Cerberus as a whole, but certainly the more fanatical - lets kill all the Mages -group could be Cerberus- like.

I think we will see Mages play a prominent role in being able to mend the tear in the veil and this will lead to a changed perspective (for the better) of Mages through out Thedas... that is unless Trevinter or another Anders-like character undermines the efforts!

The concept and actions of Cerberus and the templars are vastly differ. While Cerberus is a group who want to advance human and throws away all ethics to do so, the templars goal is to enforce ethics and at times no matter that cost.
Added, templars have a valid point while cerberus is just going to the extreme with a grey area.

[Solmanian]

So are the mustache twirling apostate that tore the veil and brought forth a demonic invasion suppose to the alliance...? your analogy breaks very quickly.

You're like "yes, my candidate is devil worshipper that sold his soul to satan and drinks the blood of virgins, but atleast he's not a republican".

[Augustei]

In the event they are I will never buy another bioware game again.. I'm still not over what they did to cerberus in ME3 it was a complete joke and god awful writing.

Those who like their villains to be two dimensional and lacking logic like ME3 cerberus are idiots

[KainD]

leaguer of one wrote...

The concept and actions of Cerberus and the templars are vastly differ. While Cerberus is a group who want to advance human and throws away all ethics to do so, the templars goal is to enforce ethics and at times no matter that cost.
Added, templars have a valid point while cerberus is just going to the extreme with a grey area.

When will people get it already..

Templars are no different from Cerberus, no diferent from Apostates or Tevinter maleficars, no different from Dalish or Qunari, no different than the Chantry. Everyone has a point, just pick a side..

[Shadow Fox]

KainD wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested. It does not matter if they don't fire it. 

I would not, and many more people would not. And that is why these discussions are pointless. 

Really?

[KainD]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KainD wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested. It does not matter if they don't fire it. 

I would not, and many more people would not. And that is why these discussions are pointless. 

Really?

Really.

[Dave of Canada]

I don't get why people support terrible writing.

[The Hierophant]

^ Same here.

[Cainhurst Crow]

KainD wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KainD wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

If someone walked around carrying a loaded gun you would call the police and they would be arrested. It does not matter if they don't fire it. 

I would not, and many more people would not. And that is why these discussions are pointless. 

Really?

Really.

Where I live it's called open carry.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 août 2013 - 06:20 .

[dragonflight288]

I underlined what Meredith did.

She lead the group that captured the Viscount. She is the Hero who Overthrew the Tryant.

Elthina only entered in after that. Just because she presided over the trial does not mean she could have made Meredith stand down.

Elthina was still involved with his being deposed, having oversaw the trial. That was my only point, and it stands to show that Elthina is involved in politics to a lesser degree. I never said Elthina ordered it, merely that she was involved.

And if you could please tell me, why on earth couldn't the Grand Cleric get the Knight-Commander dismissed when it was the Grand Cleric who presides over the templars in the area to begin with? Unless you're talking about how Meredith gained too much political power then Elthina could've called in the Seekers.

2. They can make their own deals, it also depends how large their current stockpiles are nd what suppourt they can get from lords and the common people. They the Templars as protectors, not mages, Kirkwall (where the nobles did not like their power being threatened) was an exception.

Templars are protectors? Really? They were inducted into the Chantry when they were the original inquisition, and then used by Drakon to Exalted March all his neighboring city-states to build up Orlais (History of the Chantry: Ch. 4) The Chantry then used the templars to exalted march several times for reasons not involved with defending. Heck, as a result of the Llmarron Accords being violated by Rivaini Qunari who refused to leave the land of their birth, an exalted march was called and so many were slaughtered that it sundered the veil....and then they denied doing it. The Divine nearly called an Exalted March on her own Cathedral before the Circles were even organized because the mages there were staging a peaceful protest.

Alistair says the Chantry claims the templars exist to defend, but that's not true, they're an army. And I believe him having looked at the Chantry's role in major wars throughout the codex entries.

The templars need a source of income, a way to sustain themselves, food and supplies, they need to maintain arms and armor, all the while dealing with their lyrium addiction. Historically, whenever you have a rogue army you pretty much had a large organized band of raiders. The fact that the templar codex says the largely recruit from the religiously zealous over those with integrity to keep them from questioning their orders....and you have the perfect recipe for an army of religious terrorists who truly believe they are in the right. Whether or not Inquisition follows that is another matter entirely, and I'm willing to play the game and find out if I'm right or wrong, but the probability of the templars now being raiders are very high.

3. The Divine did send a seeker, who was then attacked by blood mages, and you can ask for a Chantry army to restor order.

If you're referring to Leliana, that's kind of a mixed bag. Many people took it that Leliana is anti-mage despite the fact that she may have been romanced by one in Origins, some took it as her being incompetent. As for me, I saw that Leliana only gave Hawke, and thus the players, only the most basic of information regarding the task at hand, and not one iota more than that. It may have made her look incompetent, but the devs alluded that she was doing more than that, but weren't specific, so it's kind of hard to discuss this point in any real detail.

I can't say if Leliana was investigating Meredith, and the chantry exploded before action could be taken, or if she made up her mind before even arriving, and ignored the blatant abuse of political power.

On a side note: Gaider has said that (moving away from Elthina here) while Meredith now had the most barebone technicalities that allowed her to declare a rite of annulment, it wasn't justified in the eyes of the chantry, or the divine.

4. There was the chance of peaceful resolution, remember at this point, no one knew of Orsion's corruption, Meredith only had her hunch, which was right by the way.

*shrug* Let's commit genocide over hunches then. That'll fly with those in charge.

I won't discuss Orsino, not because I agree or disagree with you, but because that ending was so badly written that I simply can't take it seriously one way or another. It's canon, but it's stupid.

Nah, I'm not turning this into a mage/templar thread, but rather I'm trying to focus strictly on the Chantry's structure and whether or not the obvious corruption in the templars in Kirkwall are justification for Elthina or the Seekers to act against Meredith, and I believe that's the case.

I also assume the Krikwall is an unsual situation due to the vale being so weak, maybe the KC gets more room, then in other less corrupt circles.

Or maybe Meredith got more room because she had so much political power that she shouldn't of had in the first place. She is called the power in Kirkwall before Hawke even enters the city, and a guard openly says he doesn't know what will happen if Dumar doesn't do what Meredith wants.