1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

I would be disappointed if the extremists of both factions (like Lambert and Adrian) were both presented as crazy and unreasonable, and we were forced to side with some moderates of either faction. If my inquisitor wants to side with the guys who wants to subvert all mages then that should be an option, and if my inquisitor wants to side with the mages who want to be independent and destroy anyone who gets in their way, then that too should be an option.

To put it differently, i would like to be able to side with Fenris or Anders, and not just consider those crazy extremist guys. They should be reasonable and make good points, unlike ME3 Cerberus which was just dumb and boring.

[Dave of Canada]

Mykel54 wrote...

I would be disappointed if the extremists of both factions (like Lambert and Adrian) were both presented as crazy and unreasonable, and we were forced to side with some moderates of either faction. If my inquisitor wants to side with the guys who wants to subvert all mages then that should be an option, and if my inquisitor wants to side with the mages who want to be independent and destroy anyone who gets in their way, then that too should be an option.

To put it differently, i would like to be able to side with Fenris or Anders, and not just consider those crazy extremist guys. They should be reasonable and make good points, unlike ME3 Cerberus which was just dumb and boring.

Pretty much.

I'd like to have the option to side with Lambert, Fiona, Justinia with Templar focus and Justinia with Mage focus.

[Hazegurl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I would be disappointed if the extremists of both factions (like Lambert and Adrian) were both presented as crazy and unreasonable, and we were forced to side with some moderates of either faction. If my inquisitor wants to side with the guys who wants to subvert all mages then that should be an option, and if my inquisitor wants to side with the mages who want to be independent and destroy anyone who gets in their way, then that too should be an option.

To put it differently, i would like to be able to side with Fenris or Anders, and not just consider those crazy extremist guys. They should be reasonable and make good points, unlike ME3 Cerberus which was just dumb and boring.

Pretty much.

I'd like to have the option to side with Lambert, Fiona, Justinia with Templar focus and Justinia with Mage focus.

I agree. No kirkwall treatment in this game. I want the option to side with whomever I please

[KainD]

 That's the spirit. 

[duckley]

leaguer of one wrote...

duckley wrote...

Interesting discussion. I always pegged Elthina as an ineffectual leader who believed in the inherent goodness of humankind. Perhaps she is not as innocent and ineffectual as I thought!. Regardless my belief is that Anders did not have the right to murder her and any others who got caught in the explosion. For me, the end does not justify the means, but that's just my philosophy

But to the question posed by the OP. I do think we will see factions within the Templar ranks so that they will not become Cerberus as a whole, but certainly the more fanatical - lets kill all the Mages -group could be Cerberus- like.

I think we will see Mages play a prominent role in being able to mend the tear in the veil and this will lead to a changed perspective (for the better) of Mages through out Thedas... that is unless Trevinter or another Anders-like character undermines the efforts!

The concept and actions of Cerberus and the templars are vastly differ. While Cerberus is a group who want to advance human and throws away all ethics to do so, the templars goal is to enforce ethics and at times no matter that cost.
Added, templars have a valid point while cerberus is just going to the extreme with a grey area.

Yes, I do agree they are vastly different organizations with different goals and mandates.

What I meant by using the term "cerberous-like" was really more about being fanatical, single minded, intolerant, and willing to stretch the rules, shall we say, to win. The Templars do have a valid point and I am not opposed to Templars generally speaking. Although in fairness,   some white supremists  types for example, might argue that Cerberus had a point too ( NOT ME!) Again, I was only referring to to those Templars who may fragment from the main group and go Mage hunitng - not to all Templars.

[leaguer of one]

duckley wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

duckley wrote...

Interesting discussion. I always pegged Elthina as an ineffectual leader who believed in the inherent goodness of humankind. Perhaps she is not as innocent and ineffectual as I thought!. Regardless my belief is that Anders did not have the right to murder her and any others who got caught in the explosion. For me, the end does not justify the means, but that's just my philosophy

But to the question posed by the OP. I do think we will see factions within the Templar ranks so that they will not become Cerberus as a whole, but certainly the more fanatical - lets kill all the Mages -group could be Cerberus- like.

I think we will see Mages play a prominent role in being able to mend the tear in the veil and this will lead to a changed perspective (for the better) of Mages through out Thedas... that is unless Trevinter or another Anders-like character undermines the efforts!

The concept and actions of Cerberus and the templars are vastly differ. While Cerberus is a group who want to advance human and throws away all ethics to do so, the templars goal is to enforce ethics and at times no matter that cost.
Added, templars have a valid point while cerberus is just going to the extreme with a grey area.

Yes, I do agree they are vastly different organizations with different goals and mandates.

What I meant by using the term "cerberous-like" was really more about being fanatical, single minded, intolerant, and willing to stretch the rules, shall we say, to win. The Templars do have a valid point and I am not opposed to Templars generally speaking. Although in fairness,   some white supremists  types for example, might argue that Cerberus had a point too ( NOT ME!) Again, I was only referring to to those Templars who may fragment from the main group and go Mage hunitng - not to all Templars.

Then both sides would have people like that.  Both the mages and Templars have that as seen in DA2.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

He cared enough to give Elthina a merciful death. She deserves much worse. She deserves to be made to suffer the way that both mages and mundanes of Kirkwall have suffered due to her negligence.

This is twisted, Plaintiff.

You really believe that two wrongs make a right?

No, I don't believe that. Extrapolating that from my statements regarding an individual incident is serious over-reaching.

I don't believe that making Elthina suffer would be "wrong" in the first place. In most of Western society, we make our criminals suffer. Or did you think jail was like summer camp?

In the real world, people go to prison for neglecting their children or even their pets. Elthina's gross incompetence would see her on trial for human rights abuses. And so she should be. The excuses people offer up for her inaction are downright pathetic. I've heard them all and I refuse to accept them.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 août 2013 - 12:36 .

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
In the real world, people go to prison for neglecting their children or even their pets. Elthina's gross incompetence would see her on trial for human rights abuses. And so she should be. The excuses people offer up for her inaction are downright pathetic. I've heard them all and I refuse to accept them.

Genocide, actually. And crimes against humanity. 

Modifié par In Exile, 21 août 2013 - 12:37 .

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
In the real world, people go to prison for neglecting their children or even their pets. Elthina's gross incompetence would see her on trial for human rights abuses. And so she should be. The excuses people offer up for her inaction are downright pathetic. I've heard them all and I refuse to accept them.

Genocide, actually. And crimes against humanity. 

Seriously...What?

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
Seriously...What?

The legal definition for genocide is actually a lot broader that just killing everyone who is a member of the group. The Circles potentially qualify. And a great deal of the conduct that the templars carry out - in the name of the Chantry, with Elthina as their nominal representative - constitute crimes against humanity (e.g. forcible relocation). 

[Zyree]

 (Sorry in advance for the long post)

I hope the Templers don't become like ME3 Cerberus. Unlike Cerberus, I actually like being unsure as to where my loyalties are in regards to the Mages and Templars. I never trusted Cerberus and found myself laughing at them throughout ME3.

Unlike some people here, I am still largely unsure as to what faction I support. I think that in an ideal Thedas, I would be pro-circle as well as pro-mage. I'd like the Circle to become something like a boarding school that you are required to attend until a certain age. When you reach the age of graduation, you can chose to go out into the world or stay at the Circle and continue your education. However, I also believe that several phylacteries should be taken of every mage, each hidden in a different place and the task forces made up of Templars and Mages should exist to hunt down and punish mages if they commit a crime, punishment depending on the crime committed. Blood mages would be made tranquil, mages who have killed would be imprisoned (to this day I hope for a way to take magic away without I forcing tranquility) and so on so forth. I want the Circles to exist so mages can learn control in an environment that is safe and to be there as a keeping place for mages deemed unstable. While I want the option of freedom for them, I do not want to pose unnessisary risk or harm to the citizens of Thedas. I also like the idea of there being a place for mages who do not want to expose themselves to the world to, like Finn.

I once read a book with a similar situation in it. In the book, mages were corrupted by power rather than demons. They had all this power at their finger tips and total freedom and that power went to their heads. They killed thousands of people and demolished whole countries and regular citizens had no way of defending themselves against them, not like the Templars. It was a lot like the Tevintor Imperium, a place where mages are free.
The book used two different characters to show some different views on the subject. One character, a regular human, believed that the mages were simply proof of the evil that lies in everyone's heart. That no matter who had that power, they would abuse it. He didn't think that there was anyway to stop this corruption because it wasn't the magic that was evil, but the people. The other character, a mage, only practiced defensive and healing magic because she believed that the destructive magic those mages used was what was corrupting them. However, she had no issue in wielding a sword to slaughter her foes because "Any idiot with half a brain can take a few swings with a blade and hurt someone. Very few idiots can form a storm or a ball of fire out of only thoughts. I do not believe in things that give people unfair advantages. If my breathern are too cowardly to fight honestly, they are not worth half of what a human is."
Like I said, I am not sure what side I belong to. I acknowledge the dangers of mages and the corruption of the Templars as well as the vast mistakes on both sides. I don't really take the mages and Templars in DA2 as the norm as lore does state that the veil is thin there, creating many people who are fairly bonkers. I'll have to see how DA:I handles the conflict. I would like to see some more likeable people on both sides since I've hated most mages we've met that aren't our own companions (but even then there was Anders...) and every other Templar seems to be the newest Bond villain. I also hated most the mages and Templars in Asunder except the main dude and the girl Templar but especially her boss and his best friend.
Anyway, I dunno. The whole situation is weird and I have had moments where I've enjoyed being on either side, so I hope Templars don't become the stupid villains of DA:I like Cerberus was to ME3, but I also hope mages don't either.

Modifié par Soptraparu27, 21 août 2013 - 01:28 .

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Seriously...What?

The legal definition for genocide is actually a lot broader that just killing everyone who is a member of the group. The Circles potentially qualify. And a great deal of the conduct that the templars carry out - in the name of the Chantry, with Elthina as their nominal representative - constitute crimes against humanity (e.g. forcible relocation). 

You do understand that law is subjective based on it's sociaty, right?

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
You do understand that law is subjective based on it's sociaty, right?

IRL, it's more complex than that. There's a lot of convergence in theory, though how it's applied in practice it's a bit of a dog's breakfast. 

But Plaintiff's point was what the conduct was IRL, today, and IRL, today, what the Chantry does is unquestionable enough for a crimes against humanity trial, and likely convictions on most counts for the upper echelons of the organization. 

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
You do understand that law is subjective based on it's sociaty, right?

IRL, it's more complex than that. There's a lot of convergence in theory, though how it's applied in practice it's a bit of a dog's breakfast. 

But Plaintiff's point was what the conduct was IRL, today, and IRL, today, what the Chantry does is unquestionable enough for a crimes against humanity trial, and likely convictions on most counts for the upper echelons of the organization. 

And your still missing most of the point. With Law it is sujective, the group or group in power decided the law. Law is not inheritly fair, it inheritly is made to impose order. Who decides the laws are the people who have the political, finacal, social, and/ or martal power wheather benevolent or malevolent. My point is that the chantry is the law in this world and the world fallow there laws. They can legalize anythign as long as it does not start a major uprising of the majority.
You can as much jugde them for gemocide as much as a nug can on the dwarves.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 21 août 2013 - 01:47 .

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
And your still missing most of the point. With Law it is sujective, the group or group in power decided the law.

The law's determined by the governing political institutions, but it's not subjective. I know that isn't relevant to your point, but just something for you to keep in mind.

My point is that the chantry is the law in this world and the world fallow there laws. They can legalize anythign as long as it does not start a major uprising of the majority.
You can as much jugde them for gemocide as much as a nug can on the dwarves. 

We can certainly judge them by our moral standards. If someone wants to say that they dislike the Chantry because, by their IRL moral compass, what the chantry does is abhorent, that's OK. And that's what Plaintiff's post was about. Not to mention that there are plenty of groups in Thedas that also see what the Chantry does as abhorent.

Modifié par In Exile, 21 août 2013 - 01:53 .

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
And your still missing most of the point. With Law it is sujective, the group or group in power decided the law.

The law's determined by the governing political institutions, but it's not subjective. I know that isn't relevant to your point, but just something for you to keep in mind.

My point is that the chantry is the law in this world and the world fallow there laws. They can legalize anythign as long as it does not start a major uprising of the majority.
You can as much jugde them for gemocide as much as a nug can on the dwarves. 

We can certainly judge them by our moral standards. If someone wants to say that they dislike the Chantry because, by their IRL moral compass, what the chantry does is abhorent, that's OK. And that's what Plaintiff's post was about. Not to mention that there are plenty of groups in Thedas that also see what the Chantry does as abhorent.

1. And who dicides who the governing political institutions and who works there? What decides how a person select those people and what influences them to do so? Who pays for it?

Awnser, the people. Understand that with law you need to understand the social foundation that support it.  Governments are nothing with out it's people. That is way the group decided. Government may manipulate the people to get what they want but the choice is still in the hand s of the people. And with in the people are group with differnet strenghts, power, belifs, and agendas. It neve cut a dry as the government make the laws.
The government is only there to impose order.

2.Moral standard are equally subjective and inheritly biest.  It can easily confuse vengence with justice. And very little groups see the chantry as a problem.

[cjones91]

In some ways Cerberus and the Templars are similiar,they have both become rogue factions,they each have brutal methods,they believe what they are doing is right,they had supporters question their methods(Miranda,Jacob,Kelly,Cullen,Evangeline,Trask).Point is there are simliarities between the two groups however I hope the Templars have some good hearted members who are just trying to do the right thing.

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
You do understand that law is subjective based on it's sociaty, right?

IRL, it's more complex than that. There's a lot of convergence in theory, though how it's applied in practice it's a bit of a dog's breakfast. 

But Plaintiff's point was what the conduct was IRL, today, and IRL, today, what the Chantry does is unquestionable enough for a crimes against humanity trial, and likely convictions on most counts for the upper echelons of the organization. 

We really can't judge the actions of a fictional entity in a fictional setting (that is completely unlike our world, anyway) by real world law.  We didn't exactly account for, well, everything Thedas has to deal with. `_^

Or should I go arrest Shepard on grounds for multiple counts of genocide, beastiality, murder, extortion and goodness knows what else? 

[duckley]

leaguer of one wrote...

duckley wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

duckley wrote...

Interesting discussion. I always pegged Elthina as an ineffectual leader who believed in the inherent goodness of humankind. Perhaps she is not as innocent and ineffectual as I thought!. Regardless my belief is that Anders did not have the right to murder her and any others who got caught in the explosion. For me, the end does not justify the means, but that's just my philosophy

But to the question posed by the OP. I do think we will see factions within the Templar ranks so that they will not become Cerberus as a whole, but certainly the more fanatical - lets kill all the Mages -group could be Cerberus- like.

I think we will see Mages play a prominent role in being able to mend the tear in the veil and this will lead to a changed perspective (for the better) of Mages through out Thedas... that is unless Trevinter or another Anders-like character undermines the efforts!

The concept and actions of Cerberus and the templars are vastly differ. While Cerberus is a group who want to advance human and throws away all ethics to do so, the templars goal is to enforce ethics and at times no matter that cost.
Added, templars have a valid point while cerberus is just going to the extreme with a grey area.

Yes, I do agree they are vastly different organizations with different goals and mandates.

What I meant by using the term "cerberous-like" was really more about being fanatical, single minded, intolerant, and willing to stretch the rules, shall we say, to win. The Templars do have a valid point and I am not opposed to Templars generally speaking. Although in fairness,   some white supremists  types for example, might argue that Cerberus had a point too ( NOT ME!) Again, I was only referring to to those Templars who may fragment from the main group and go Mage hunitng - not to all Templars.

Then both sides would have people like that.  Both the mages and Templars have that as seen in DA2.

Yes - true enough!

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
You do understand that law is subjective based on it's sociaty, right?

IRL, it's more complex than that. There's a lot of convergence in theory, though how it's applied in practice it's a bit of a dog's breakfast. 

But Plaintiff's point was what the conduct was IRL, today, and IRL, today, what the Chantry does is unquestionable enough for a crimes against humanity trial, and likely convictions on most counts for the upper echelons of the organization. 

We really can't judge the actions of a fictional entity in a fictional setting (that is completely unlike our world, anyway) by real world law.  We didn't exactly account for, well, everything Thedas has to deal with. `_^

Or should I go arrest Shepard on grounds for multiple counts of genocide, beastiality, murder, extortion and goodness knows what else? 

You would probaly die trying to arrest Shepard,many people who tried to kill/detain him/her had a short life.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I would be disappointed if the extremists of both factions (like Lambert and Adrian) were both presented as crazy and unreasonable, and we were forced to side with some moderates of either faction. If my inquisitor wants to side with the guys who wants to subvert all mages then that should be an option, and if my inquisitor wants to side with the mages who want to be independent and destroy anyone who gets in their way, then that too should be an option.

To put it differently, i would like to be able to side with Fenris or Anders, and not just consider those crazy extremist guys. They should be reasonable and make good points, unlike ME3 Cerberus which was just dumb and boring.

Pretty much.

I'd like to have the option to side with Lambert, Fiona, Justinia with Templar focus and Justinia with Mage focus.

I think Lambert's dead, and equivocating him with Fiona is a false equivalence. You're looking for someone on the level of, say, Danarius.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 août 2013 - 02:51 .

[cjones91]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I would be disappointed if the extremists of both factions (like Lambert and Adrian) were both presented as crazy and unreasonable, and we were forced to side with some moderates of either faction. If my inquisitor wants to side with the guys who wants to subvert all mages then that should be an option, and if my inquisitor wants to side with the mages who want to be independent and destroy anyone who gets in their way, then that too should be an option.

To put it differently, i would like to be able to side with Fenris or Anders, and not just consider those crazy extremist guys. They should be reasonable and make good points, unlike ME3 Cerberus which was just dumb and boring.

Pretty much.

I'd like to have the option to side with Lambert, Fiona, Justinia with Templar focus and Justinia with Mage focus.

I think Lambert's dead, and equivocating him with Fiona is a false equivalence. You're looking for someone on the level of, say, Danarius.

I hope he's not dead because I want to kill that extremist bastard.

[Xilizhra]

Don't worry. Even if he is, I think we'll get to kill someone like him.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't worry. Even if he is, I think we'll get to kill someone like him.

Bah!  I want to blow up the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux.

With a nice Anders shaped icon to trigger it.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't worry. Even if he is, I think we'll get to kill someone like him.

Bah!  I want to blow up the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux.

With a nice Anders shaped icon to trigger it.

Maybe you'd have enjoyed my vision of the game, where the final battle takes there after the former Tevinter archon has turned it into an abbatoir, a site to focus a massive blood magic ritual.