418 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

in 2185 a time of mass relays and ftl. restoring brain activity through a great innovation and research while appearing to be ludicrous isnt completely crazy

Once the brain has been vaporized by atmospheric re-entry (and ME3's "Shepard's brain wasn't destroyed because LOOK! A pink flying unicorn" isn't good enough) the neural connections that make up our memories, personality and mind are gone, and no amount of messing with gravity will allow you to put the individual molecules back together in the right order if you don't even know the right order.

[Eterna]

All of it pretty much.

[Ravensword]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

in 2185 a time of mass relays and ftl. restoring brain activity through a great innovation and research while appearing to be ludicrous isnt completely crazy

Once the brain has been vaporized by atmospheric re-entry (and ME3's "Shepard's brain wasn't destroyed because LOOK! A pink flying unicorn" isn't good enough) the neural connections that make up our memories, personality and mind are gone, and no amount of messing with gravity will allow you to put the individual molecules back together in the right order if you don't even know the right order.

Haven't you heard? HEROISM keeps the brain intact.

[Fixers0]

erezike wrote...
today we claim that it isnt possibile to restore brain memories or to prevent brain degeneration.

its the only thing that will stop us from achieving immortality in a few dozen of years. 

in 2185 a time of mass relays and ftl. restoring brain activity through a great innovation and research while appearing to be ludicrous isnt completely crazy. it was presented well and not as a matter of fact like  mass accelerators,  weapons which are being developed today

The problem with lazarus is that aims to achieve something which has no chance of occuring anyway. Although Mass Effect is set in a fictional universe, it's still dependant on addhearing to certain implicit rules which the players logically expect are in place, chronolgy, cause and effect and the finalty of death are one of them. at no point did the Mass Effect universe, prior or after lazarus provide any evidence that death shouldn't be final. and That's were it fails. If they said "We used reaper tech" it would cause all sorts of contrivance and questions, but at least the reason for not addhearing to the finalty of death is there.

[Erez Kristal]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

in 2185 a time of mass relays and ftl. restoring brain activity through a great innovation and research while appearing to be ludicrous isnt completely crazy

Once the brain has been vaporized by atmospheric re-entry (and ME3's "Shepard's brain wasn't destroyed because LOOK! A pink flying unicorn" isn't good enough) the neural connections that make up our memories, personality and mind are gone, and no amount of messing with gravity will allow you to put the individual molecules back together in the right order if you don't even know the right order.

In order to proove the brain was vaporized you have to prove shepard was vaporized on entry.,
but shepard wasnt vaporized since he was in the outer layers of the planet athmosphere and was being pulled by the planet gravity, he didnt have enough speed when he entered the planet to get vaporized. any heat that may have been generated was blocked by his suit.

the problem with giving him his memories only occur due to his clinical death and not to being disintegrated into gew.

The rest is science... which i why it took them two years and best of science and technology.
if they simply wanted to clone him it would have taken them a few days or weeks.

[Erez Kristal]

Fixers0 wrote...

erezike wrote...
today we claim that it isnt possibile to restore brain memories or to prevent brain degeneration.

its the only thing that will stop us from achieving immortality in a few dozen of years. 

in 2185 a time of mass relays and ftl. restoring brain activity through a great innovation and research while appearing to be ludicrous isnt completely crazy. it was presented well and not as a matter of fact like  mass accelerators,  weapons which are being developed today

The problem with lazarus is that aims to achieve something which has no chance of occuring anyway. Although Mass Effect is set in a fictional universe, it's still dependant on addhearing to certain implicit rules which the players logically expect are in place, chronolgy, cause and effect and the finalty of death are one of them. at no point did the Mass Effect universe, prior or after lazarus provide any evidence that death shouldn't be final. and That's were it fails. If they said "We used reaper tech" it would cause all sorts of contrivance and questions, but at least the reason for not addhearing to the finalty of death is there.

The biggest problem in a story are when characers act in a bizzare way only to make room for the writer idea of a plot.
who are we to say such feat wouldnt be possibile in ten thousand years?  

in order to ask ourself about the finality of death, we need decide what it even means.
In star trek, teleportation is a common theme in the series.
Does that mean that they all die and are being rebirth time after time?

If your memories pass on to another being, do you continue to live through him? 
Do you have a soul which is limited to one platfrom? if so can this soul be reunited with the platform?

If shepard was brought back but without his memories would he still be shepard?

Lets decide not to go to dead or alive area since it will be impossibile to reach a consensus

Shepard was non functional and then he was made functional again.
just like in real life today, people be clinical dead and still be brought back to life more than a hour afterwards.



More information about the self sealing capabilities of shepard armor: "The last level of protection is provided by the suit's microframe computers, whose input detectors are woven throughout the fabric. These manage the self-healing system, which finds rents in the fabric and, assuming any such tear would wound the flesh underneath, seals the area off with sterile, non-conductive medi-gel. This stanches minor wounds and plugs holes in the suit that could prove fatal in vacuum or toxic environments. Soldiers are not always fond of the "squish skin" that oozes gel on them at a moment's notice, but fatalities have dropped sharply since the system was implemented."

Modifié par erezike, 21 août 2013 - 10:18 .

[Fixers0]

erezike wrote...
The biggest problem in a story are when characers act in a bizzare way only to make room for the writer idea of a plot.
who are we to say such feat wouldnt be possibile in ten thousand years?  

in order to ask ourself about the finality of death, we need decide what it even means.
In star trek, teleportation is a common theme in the series.
Does that mean that they all die and are being rebirth time after time?

If your memories pass on to another being, do you continue to live through him? 
Do you have a soul which is limited to one platfrom? if so can this soul be reunited with the platform?

If shepard was brought back but without his memories would he still be shepard?

Lets decide not to go to dead or alive area since it will be impossibile to reach a consensus

Shepard was non functional and then he was made functional again.
just like in real life today, people be clinical dead and still be brought back to life more than a hour afterwards.

The problem is Shepard died, not just cliniclly, their body would have been annihilated through pressure and the thick athmosphere of Alchera of ammonia and methane would have taken of what's left of him, it's simply an immposible feat, the narrative would have to tell explain to us how dead can be cured, otherwise it's impposible.

Modifié par Fixers0, 21 août 2013 - 10:27 .

[Erez Kristal]

Fixers0 wrote...


The problem is Shepard died, not just cliniclly, their body would have been annihilated through pressure and the thick athmosphere of Alchera of ammonia and methane would have taken of what's left of him, it's simply an immposible feat, the narrative would have to tell explain to us how dead can be cured, otherwise it's impposible.

Shepard body would have been annihlated if he was traveling fast when he entered the athmosphere.
But he was already in outer layers of the athmosphere which is less thick the the atmosphere of earth with less gravital pull then earth.

his body armor protected him from the heat generated by the lesser friction when he entered the planet(was falling at low speed) his body armor self repair prevented the entry of ammonia and methane which would have bod ill for shepard.
in the end he died from the impact&lack of oxygen. and was frozen before his corpse was finnaly found.

"Worth noting is the fact that, since Shepard entered what was basically freefall, s/he needn't to actually start burning (unless he was traveling near orbital speeds), instead just hit terminal velocity... and promptly get their brain smeared all over the inside of his helmet.  "

as for his brain functionality that a lot more complicated

i did some more research into this,(got to love the bsn for that, sure make sure you smarter with facts you dont reall need )  longest someone ever survived was: 33,330 feet - a flight attendant fell out of a DC-9 that blew up over Czechoslovakia in 1972.

Take under account shepard uniqe physical capabilites through alliance implants and secret augments and inejctions. add to that a suit of armor which can stop hypersonic slugs and rockets. and he even had quite a decent chance to survive the fall even without the suit emergency built in omni-parachute.

Too bad he ran out of oxygen and froze.
taking under account he reached extreme cold tempetures before any severe brain damage was done and that he was lucky and the capabilites of the lazarus, this not be as far fetched as i first was led to believe.

all shepard needed was a big amount of nitrogen before he froze and all was set. but i assume it wouldnt have cost cerberus 4 billion and two years to bring him back in that praticular case.

Modifié par erezike, 21 août 2013 - 11:20 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

erezike wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

shepard at no mommentum or speed to go with when he entered the athmosphere, therefor the most he was traveling with was the terminal velocity of the planet alchera

Uh.... no. 

Seriously, where the hell are you getting these idea's? 

the kinetic barriers help with first bullets, but his suit is capable of withstanding rocket and bullets even without the kinetic barriers as depicted inside the gamelore.

The one point where you have some semblance of truth beyond make-believe la-la land!

Yes, his hardsuit with the in-universe engineering is survivable to ballistics, even the ones that are at hypersonic velocities.

I don't think you're going to be able to withstand a rocket though... especially a direct hit from an HE warhead... In fact, I'm quite sure of it...

It's a gameplay mechanic. All video games have them. It's why I can survive being shot 50 times in CoD, walk away, recover, and come back and get shot again. Rinse and repeat.

the only thing which was pulling shepard to the planet, was the planet gravity, he was already in the outer layers of the planet athmosphere, therefor the most he was traveling at was the planet terminal velocity, there for the friction of him and the athmosphere was not as high you would like to think. the heat generated by shepard rentry was rather low and not enough to burn away his suit.  some parts of his suit fell apart after he fell or when they salvaged him which will explains why legion has a part of his armor.


game mecahnics in a science fiction world like mass effect are part of the lore, if you are going to argue game mecahnics as lore breaking when they have worked so hard to match the two then what is the point of this discussion. shepard suit is clearly shown to be able to withstand rockets in game from geth drone and vorcha. its a powerful advanced and we have no idea of its capabilities to prevent shepard from turning into paste, we do know that it will help.

What? No, seriously, what? Gameplay mechanics are apart of Mass Effect's science now? Oi...

Allow me to introduce you to Gameplay and Story Segregation, a concept aptly named for establishing they often do not mesh together. In cut-scenes the hardsuits are practically worthless, thus how Shepard is able to kill Kaidan/Ashley with a single shot to the gut and their shields do nothing. Likewise, in ME1 Shepard could take rocket launchers to the face and barely flinch. The mechanics changed since and said rockets result in a Game Over screen more often than not.

Perpetuating the same rhetoric does not make it any more accurate than it was an hour ago. You are arguing without a shred of evidence and inserting absolutes despite them contradicting actual science. Your entire post just... makes no bloody sense.

[Br3admax]

Ravensword wrote..

Haven't you heard? HEROISM keeps the brain intact.

Well it is science fiction. We can do whatever we want as long as we ssy big words.

[Erez Kristal]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


What? No, seriously, what? Gameplay mechanics are apart of Mass Effect's science now? Oi...

Allow me to introduce you to Gameplay and Story Segregation, a concept aptly named for establishing they often do not mesh together. In cut-scenes the hardsuits are practically worthless, thus how Shepard is able to kill Kaidan/Ashley with a single shot to the gut and their shields do nothing. Likewise, in ME1 Shepard could take rocket launchers to the face and barely flinch. The mechanics changed since and said rockets result in a Game Over screen more often than not.

Perpetuating the same rhetoric does not make it any more accurate than it was an hour ago. You are arguing without a shred of evidence and inserting absolutes despite them contradicting actual science. Your entire post just... makes no bloody sense.

mass effect 3 retconned a lot of things kinetic shields and story consistency were among them.
In mass effect 1 you have many occasions were kinetic shields stopped bullets, in me2 trailer you have kinetic shields which are stopping collector bullets

Shepard was pulled to the planet only by the power of the planet gravity, if he was travelling at a much higher speed he would have been burned to toast. This is a Fact. 
People have been proved to survive falling down from over terminus velocity. these are proven incidents that have repeated themselves. This is a Fact

Shepard was protected in a hardsuit which is capable of amazing feats. This is a Fact is backed by in game lore&gameplay mechanics.

if anyone here isnt sticking to the facts are are people like you who  keep clinging on false assumptions. that shepard should have burned when he entered the planet when there is nothing in game to support this claim on the contrary
Shepard reentering the athmosphere at low speed is an ingame proof.  by  the fact that hes armor survived the entry to the atmosphere.

if you really want to regute my claims use ingame lore&mechanics to do so. if not ,stop wasting your breath and accept the truth

Yes it was contrived, yes restoring brain functionality is an amazing feat even at 2186. but everything else about shepard turning it paste is a load of unbased bullox, a rumor started by someone who never got his facts straight.

Modifié par erezike, 21 août 2013 - 01:52 .

[Remix-General Aetius]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

The mass relays are pretty much the equivalent of warp speed in Star Trek - i.e. the story requires widespread, efficient faster-than-light travel, but obviously nobody knows how that could work, so they make up some fancy terminology to make it sound convincing.

lol that's why it's called SCIENCE FICTION.

I can't believe this stupid thread is still going. don't you lot have anything better to do?

[dreamgazer]

I see a few Damon Lindelofs in the making within this thread.



God help us all.

[dorktainian]

FTL. not the theory (although it is bonkers) but the fact that when you look out the window you see stars - when that is scientifically impossibru. How can the light from the stars reach you if you are traveling faster than the light from the stars?

Recovering anything of shepard after his/her planetary re-entry & burn up. Just really really stupid.

[billy the squid]

erezike wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...


The problem is Shepard died, not just cliniclly, their body would have been annihilated through pressure and the thick athmosphere of Alchera of ammonia and methane would have taken of what's left of him, it's simply an immposible feat, the narrative would have to tell explain to us how dead can be cured, otherwise it's impposible.

Shepard body would have been annihlated if he was traveling fast when he entered the athmosphere.
But he was already in outer layers of the athmosphere which is less thick the the atmosphere of earth with less gravital pull then earth.

his body armor protected him from the heat generated by the lesser friction when he entered the planet(was falling at low speed) his body armor self repair prevented the entry of ammonia and methane which would have bod ill for shepard.
in the end he died from the impact&lack of oxygen. and was frozen before his corpse was finnaly found.

"Worth noting is the fact that, since Shepard entered what was basically freefall, s/he needn't to actually start burning (unless he was traveling near orbital speeds), instead just hit terminal velocity... and promptly get their brain smeared all over the inside of his helmet.  "

as for his brain functionality that a lot more complicated

i did some more research into this,(got to love the bsn for that, sure make sure you smarter with facts you dont reall need )  longest someone ever survived was: 33,330 feet - a flight attendant fell out of a DC-9 that blew up over Czechoslovakia in 1972.

Take under account shepard uniqe physical capabilites through alliance implants and secret augments and inejctions. add to that a suit of armor which can stop hypersonic slugs and rockets. and he even had quite a decent chance to survive the fall even without the suit emergency built in omni-parachute.

Yeah, you see that episode she was strapped to her chair, which remained attached to the fuselage and the entire portion of the plane hit the ground, absorbing the impact. So try again please.

Other than making everything up, have you actually got anything? Because I gave the illustration of what happens when a metal frame collides with a solid object at 120mph, it crumples like a carboard box, which is the terminal velocity parallel to the surface. If you're vertically orientated, you're looking at over 300mph. 

And if the atmosphere is thinner you have lower air resistance, which affects the speed of the terminal velocity, hence you will actually be falling faster.

Modifié par billy the squid, 21 août 2013 - 02:22 .

[Erez Kristal]

dorktainian wrote...

FTL. not the theory (although it is bonkers) but the fact that when you look out the window you see stars - when that is scientifically impossibru. How can the light from the stars reach you if you are traveling faster than the light from the stars?

Recovering anything of shepard after his/her planetary re-entry & burn up. Just really really stupid.

if he were to burn up, but its a good thing that he never had the the speed to. since he was slowly being pulled to the planet by its gravity from the outer layers of its atmosphere.

[The Night Mammoth]

erezike wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

FTL. not the theory (although it is bonkers) but the fact that when you look out the window you see stars - when that is scientifically impossibru. How can the light from the stars reach you if you are traveling faster than the light from the stars?

Recovering anything of shepard after his/her planetary re-entry & burn up. Just really really stupid.

if he were to burn up, but its a good thing that he never had the the speed to. since he was slowly being pulled to the planet by its gravity from the outer layers of its atmosphere.

Slowly? 

And I don't think the fact Shepard didn't burn up is all that important, since, you know, she hits the planet at the end of re-entry. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 21 août 2013 - 02:39 .

[Erez Kristal]

billy the squid wrote...


Yeah, you see that episode she was strapped to her chair, which remained attached to the fuselage and the entire portion of the plane hit the ground, absorbing the impact. So try again please.

Other than making everything up, have you actually got anything? Because I gave the illustration of what happens when a metal frame collides with a solid object at 120mph, it crumples like a carboard box, which is the terminal velocity parallel to the surface. If you're vertically orientated, you're looking at over 300mph. 

And if the atmosphere is thinner you have lower air resistance, which affects the speed of the terminal velocity, hence you will actually be falling faster.

"Lieutenant Chisov was a Soviet Airforce Lieutenant on an Ilyushin Il-4 bomber. In January of 1942, German fighters attacked his bomber, forcing him to bail out at an altitude of approximately 22,000 feet. With the battle still raging around him, Lt. Chisov intentionally did not open his parachute, since he feared that he would just be an easy target for an angry German while he was dangling from his parachute harness. He planned on dropping below the level of the battle, and then, once he was out of sight of the German fighters, he would open his chute and land safely. However, he lost consciousness on the way down, and was unable to pull the rip cord. Miraculously, he was not killed. He hit the edge of a snowy ravine at an estimated speed of somewhere between 120 and 150 mph, then slid, rolled, and plowed his way down to the bottom. He suffered spinal injuries and a broken pelvis, but was able to fly again three months later
Read more at http://www.oddee.com...OSzDxeqT2jQP.99 " terminal velocity is 122. mph.
and remember this is someone surviving the impact.  you assumed shepard would be turned into paste which is almost impossibile.

Yes shepard we pulled faster due to the lighter atmosphere but the gravity on the planet is also lower at almost the same measure.

Its also irrelvant what happens to a car which is built different when you have examples more similar to shepard freefall as stated by other people on this thread.

"Auto safety has come a long way in the last few decades, and one of the most effective innovations is the ]. Also known as a [/color]crush zone[ crumple zones are areas of a vehicle that are designed to deform and crumple in a collision. This absorbs some of the energy of the impact, preventing it from being transmitted to the occupants."

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Slowly? 

And I don't think the fact Shepard didn't burn up is all that important, since, you know, she hits the planet at the end of her 900 plus mile an hour re-entry. 

She/he hit the planet at terminal velocity as proven above some people even survived the speed of terminal velocity without shepard rocket stopping gear and other hidden inside armor perk such as a possibile electric current paracute(think how he could have survived instead of why not and things will be much simpler)

Modifié par erezike, 21 août 2013 - 02:45 .

[Stalker]

I can accept Element Zero and everything associated with it as an essential part of the universe establishment (the famous "what if"-question for storytelling), but I always had problems with how they made more complicated biology and chemistry look magical: that Asari mind-melding with all species, the Protheans' ability to put a finger on the ground and understand everything that has once lived there, melting humans into a Reaper which is supposed to save the civilization into one big thinking construct and at the top of it all to spread your "essence" so every living being understands each other for everlasting peace and immortality.
... I bet if they would have phrased the story a little bit differently in a book, there would have evolved a cult who seriously believes into all that magic.

[Br3admax]

TheGarden2010 wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

The mass relays are pretty much the equivalent of warp speed in Star Trek - i.e. the story requires widespread, efficient faster-than-light travel, but obviously nobody knows how that could work, so they make up some fancy terminology to make it sound convincing.

lol that's why it's called SCIENCE FICTION.

I can't believe this stupid thread is still going. don't you lot have anything better to do?

I get this. We need things like Mass Relays, because you know, the entire civilization of the galaxy, and title for that matter, is bassed around the theory of a MASS EFFECT. Yeah you need things like this to even make the title make sense. 

[impingu1984]

 

erezike wrote...

his body armor protected him from the heat generated by the lesser friction when he entered the planet(was falling at low speed) his body armor self repair prevented the entry of ammonia and methane which would have bod ill for shepard.

I can suspend my disbelief that Shep Body Armor can self repair, however in the cutscene we see the armor losing pressure and venting the pressurised atomsphere of the suit into the vacum of space, at no point does this seem "self repair". 

Therefore we can assume the suit has had a critical failure in self repair. Ammonia and methane enter the suit on reentry.. bad times. 

**EDIT **

Just to clafiify, I'm aware the armor can repair, the point I'm making is we see the suit start to lose pressure, indicating a failure in the suits self repair system, therefore making the above specualtion by erezike not valid based on In game events.

Modifié par impingu1984, 21 août 2013 - 02:48 .

[Erez Kristal]

impingu1984 wrote...

 

erezike wrote...

his body armor protected him from the heat generated by the lesser friction when he entered the planet(was falling at low speed) his body armor self repair prevented the entry of ammonia and methane which would have bod ill for shepard.

I can suspend my disbelief that Shep Body Armor can self repair, however in the cutscene we see the armor losing pressure and venting the pressurised atomsphere of the suit into the vacum of space, at no point does this seem "self repair". 

Therefore we can assume the suit has had a critical failure in self repair. Ammonia and methane enter the suit on reentry.. bad times. 

The suit takes time to self repair, this is why shepard need to wait some time before his health begins to regenerate.
shepard may or may not have had ammonia and methane enter his suit. all we know is that his body  was mostly intact when they found him, we do not know the cause of death which could have also been exposure to amonia and methane.

[dreamgazer]

Bolding the "fiction" in science-fiction doesn't reinforce the point you think it's making, folks.

[impingu1984]

erezike wrote...

impingu1984 wrote...

 

erezike wrote...

his body armor protected him from the heat generated by the lesser friction when he entered the planet(was falling at low speed) his body armor self repair prevented the entry of ammonia and methane which would have bod ill for shepard.

I can suspend my disbelief that Shep Body Armor can self repair, however in the cutscene we see the armor losing pressure and venting the pressurised atomsphere of the suit into the vacum of space, at no point does this seem "self repair". 

Therefore we can assume the suit has had a critical failure in self repair. Ammonia and methane enter the suit on reentry.. bad times. 

The suit takes time to self repair, this is why shepard need to wait some time before his health begins to regenerate.
shepard may or may not have had ammonia and methane enter his suit. all we know is that his body  was mostly intact when they found him, we do not know the cause of death which could have also been exposure to amonia and methane.

I know its stated Shepard is found mostly intact..... the point is it's really not possible without the hard suits being basically indestrutable, which they are shown to not be indestrucable. The force when Shep faceplants into the planet would be huge. Even if Shepard didn't burn up the atmophere, the force of impact would be too much to be mostly intact.

Thats were Bioware broke my suspension of belief.

[The Night Mammoth]

erezike wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Slowly? 

And I don't think the fact Shepard didn't burn up is all that important, since, you know, she hits the planet at the end of re-entry. 

She/he hit the planet at terminal velocity as proven above some people even survived the speed of terminal velocity without shepard rocket stopping gear and other hidden inside armor perk such as a possibile electric current paracute(think how he could have survived instead of why not and things will be much simpler)

What is Shepard's terminal velocity, pray tell? 

And all that stuff about parachutes is simple headcanon. Why should I invent reasons for Shepard's survival when we know Shepard didn't survive, and hit the surface of Alchera with force?