590 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

phunx wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm just not sure I like the assumption that I didn't think much of it merely because of my "male privilege."

I didn't notice it at all, until it was pointed out to me. What else could it be?

That is the problem with privilege.

In a way there is nothing wrong with having a privilige, because you are born what you are born as.

What there is something wrong with is how you act when that privilege is pointed out.

(And to be honest, none of us like to have it pointed out, I know.)

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@Maria, I think there were some tweets a while ago saying that a female protagonist would take a more active lead in marketing than she did in past DA games.

I would expect about the same amount that Femshep got in ME3, but no more than 1 trailer and a non-publicly displayed cover.


I would personally love it if the cover was reversible, and half of the copies of the game shipped with a man on the front, half shipped with a woman on the front.

[Sylvianus]

Bioware wanted it. Now Bioware must definitely assume its leadership on this matter and must definitely include the marketting and not only the content, especially that women are a big part of their customers. So one step forward and one step back according to each marketting game ? How about no ? There's no reason the female pc can be ignored, while she has certainly the same content and the same importance to them, no matter how good is the content.

Times have changed.  Expectations have changed.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 août 2013 - 08:28 .

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Or both on the cover. Both is good

Or neither I suppose haha.

[Nyneve]

pdusen wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

And you are the one who gets to decide what is reasonable and what isn't?

How convient.

Just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't make caring about it unreasonable. 

No, I certainly am as capable of being unreasonable as everyone else.

I get that many female gamers feel that their lack of representation in game marketing is an open wound. But that is a feeling, and letting that be the basis of your disappointment is, by definition, unreasonable.

Eh? The basis of OPs (and mine) disappointment isn't hurt feelings, it's the fact that female player characters are underrepresentet in video games and as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist.

[Blackrising]

Beerfish wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

pdusen wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As an experiment, a male and female writer could each write all of the lines for the inquisitor, and then get together and decide which lines from each set that they both find acceptable.

In my blog right now I am writing a small story (I post each day) about the my female, lesbian Hawke after the events of DA2. Its only just begun (ten posts) but one of the things I will be doing is trying to show the world through her eyes and her situation (and Merrill's as her partner). Follow that and I think you might see the subtle differences in which we experience the world.

I don't see how you can speak for a whole large group of people anymore than you expect others not to speak for you.  How can you speak for every lesbain couple and how they feel.  You are stereotyping in the same way others have been accused of stereotypeing for years.

What you get with the BioWare games is equal in game content.  Themakle protag can be nice or naughty or an **** or a grump or a hero.  Can dump companons romance many.  Females can do just the same.

I have to agree with Beerfish.
I LIKE the fact that the relationship between the characters doesn't change significantly based on my gender. I like that my Hawke's relationship with Merrill is basically the same as if she were a guy.
I prefer the gender-neutral approach because there is no universal way lesbians date and behave. I should know.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@FiveforChaos

No WAY is that going to happen. In fact in this very thread, Gaider stated that in the image of an inquisitor holding up the flag, the person was a female. Don't worry about that

[Am1vf]

pdusen wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

And you are the one who gets to decide what is reasonable and what isn't?

How convient.

Just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't make caring about it unreasonable. 

No, I certainly am as capable of being unreasonable as everyone else.

I get that many female gamers feel that their lack of representation in game marketing is an open wound. But that is a feeling, and letting that be the basis of your disappointment is, by definition, unreasonable.

 I am male and the lack of representation of females in game marketing bothers me. And issues like opposition to having female leads and/or female characters in the cover disgusts me. I suppose that is a feeling, but I don't think that means it has to be ignored.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

I agree with Beerfish too; standing up for gender equality is a good thing, but if we're not careful we end up treating the opposite gender as better (or at least different) instead, and that's not what equality is about.

[pdusen]

Nyneve wrote...

Eh? The basis of OPs (and mine) disappointment isn't hurt feelings, it's the fact that female player characters are underrepresentet in video games and as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist.

Yes, but carry that thought to its logical conclusion. Why does the underrepresentation of female player characters in general, and in DAI marketing in particular, upset you?

[Soundsystem]

pdusen wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

And you are the one who gets to decide what is reasonable and what isn't?

How convient.

Just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't make caring about it unreasonable. 

No, I certainly am as capable of being unreasonable as everyone else.

I get that many female gamers feel that their lack of representation in game marketing is an open wound. But that is a feeling, and letting that be the basis of your disappointment is, by definition, unreasonable.

Am I only allowed to be disappointed based on facts? Disappointment itself is a feeling, so by your definition it's also unreasonable. Or is it only feelings based on feelings that are unreasonable? Frankly I don't see how human beings can interact with the world if we don't use feelings. Maybe you are confusing people and robots?

The facts show that there is a lack of female representation in gaming, a simple survey of any games shows how rarely we see female PC's. 45% of gamers are women and they make up 46% of the most habitual video game purchasers, according to a new study by the Entertainment Software Association. The study, "2013 Essential Facts About the Computer and Video Game Industry," found that adult women represent 31% of the video game population and boys 17 and under make up only 19% of gamers. 

Can I be disappointed in the lack of female PC in the marketing now that I've back it up with facts?

[Nyneve]

pdusen wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

Eh? The basis of OPs (and mine) disappointment isn't hurt feelings, it's the fact that female player characters are underrepresentet in video games and as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist.

Yes, but carry that thought to its logical conclusion. Why does the underrepresentation of female player characters in general, and in DAI marketing in particular, upset you?

Because I prefer equality and equal representation over inequality? 

[esper]

Soundsystem wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

pdusen wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As an experiment, a male and female writer could each write all of the lines for the inquisitor, and then get together and decide which lines from each set that they both find acceptable.

In my blog right now I am writing a small story (I post each day) about the my female, lesbian Hawke after the events of DA2. Its only just begun (ten posts) but one of the things I will be doing is trying to show the world through her eyes and her situation (and Merrill's as her partner). Follow that and I think you might see the subtle differences in which we experience the world.

There are always different ways different groups interact and experience the world. Sadly, in games we're not at the point where it is remotely feasible to account for all these variables and give each a unique story that suits. 

As it stands now the simplest way to give as much equality as possible it to give everyone the same experience, baring some minor differences. Hence male and female PC's experience events in much the same way, save for occassional NPC comments about gender.

I would personally love a game with a lesbian PC, from that POV, but I don't think it would be Bioware that makes it since Bioware tends not to have a set PC that cannot be customized. Maybe some day we'll see this from a game company, but even now I think if we saw it it would still be very much "lesbians for the male gaze", but maybe I'm just a cynic. 

You can't transform real life to game, because some of those percieved difference is because of our culture and it is hard, if not impossible to discern what is culture and what is not.

For example a lesbian who life in a city and has to kill for a living every day - as a lesbian Hawke would, don't you think that those thing would colour her perception of the world, how to make friends and how to connect to someone romantically and don't you think that would be vastly different than ours simply due to the constant danger off her life.

No matter what you come up wiht and say that 'that is a lesbian thing' a lesbian couple would step up and say, that is not how we feel. The same with wo/man. You can't go and say that something is inheretly female in behavior, because there would always be woman and men who would have a different experience and perception in life.

The most important thing is to remember that they are characters and represent individuals before checking if they act according to certain stereo types.

[pdusen]

Soundsystem wrote...

Am I only allowed to be disappointed based on facts? Disappointment itself is a feeling, so by your definition it's also unreasonable. Or is it only feelings based on feelings that are unreasonable? Frankly I don't see how human beings can interact with the world if we don't use feelings. Maybe you are confusing people and robots?

The facts show that there is a lack of female representation in gaming, a simple survey of any games shows how rarely we see female PC's. 45% of gamers are women and they make up 46% of the most habitual video game purchasers, according to a new study by the Entertainment Software Association. The study, "2013 Essential Facts About the Computer and Video Game Industry," found that adult women represent 31% of the video game population and boys 17 and under make up only 19% of gamers. 

Can I be disappointed in the lack of female PC in the marketing now that I've back it up with facts?

You've given a list of very good reasons that there should be more female player characters. And you're right about that.

Modifié par pdusen, 20 août 2013 - 08:34 .

[Maria Caliban]

pdusen wrote...

Yes, but carry that thought to its logical conclusion. Why does the underrepresentation of female player characters in general, and in DAI marketing in particular, upset you?

Because I am a female player in general and a someday DA:I player in particular.

[Jaison1986]

Well, Bethesda only used an male nord while marketing Skyrim. I wonder if they had to deal with fans complaining about the lack of female dragonborn during their promos?

[Sir George Parr]

Sylvianus wrote...

I'm all with female gamers. This is a fair issue in my opinion.

I do agree. 

[cjones91]

I do find it annoying how despite being able to play as both genders more often than not the male character is used all the time in marketing, which results in some people thinking it's canon.

[Mornmagor]

For what it's worth, i think it is a given, that sooner or later, we will have coverage of the female Inquisitor as well.

The concept art is not a trailer Inquisitor, it's just a doll to show some armors you can have, and although i agree that female "dolls" would be nice as well, so would other race dolls.

Some Inquisitors we have seen so far, one taming a dragon, the other in front of the crowd, the one sitting on the throne(ambiguous but probable), are all female.

I would actually prefer it, if the first actual trailer Inquisitor we see, like Hawke, would be the female one.

To be honest, i don't want to have default Inquisitors, or Wardens, or Hawkes. But that is just me.

Just give me the nice mage-plate you've shown me and we'll be fine

[Blackrising]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Well, Bethesda only used an male nord while marketing Skyrim. I wonder if they had to deal with fans complaining about the lack of female dragonborn during their promos?

I'm sure they did.
Or at least I remember reading a few comments about that subject, though I didn't really follow Skyrim's marketing.

[TK514]

Nyneve wrote...

pdusen wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

And you are the one who gets to decide what is reasonable and what isn't?

How convient.

Just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't make caring about it unreasonable. 

No, I certainly am as capable of being unreasonable as everyone else.

I get that many female gamers feel that their lack of representation in game marketing is an open wound. But that is a feeling, and letting that be the basis of your disappointment is, by definition, unreasonable.

Eh? The basis of OPs (and mine) disappointment isn't hurt feelings, it's the fact that female player characters are underrepresentet in video games and as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist.

I just can't take this complaint even moderately seriously.  Saying 'as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist' is like being greeted at the front door by a man while a woman walks into another room and assuming that you are only ever going to see the man and glimpses of the woman.

[Nyneve]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Well, Bethesda only used an male nord while marketing Skyrim. I wonder if they had to deal with fans complaining about the lack of female dragonborn during their promos?

I don't know, did they? I'm not as invested in the TES games as I am in Bioware games, but complains would have been valid imo, if they only used a white dude in marketing the game. I do hold Bioware to higher standards than most video game companies though.

[esper]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

@Esper, I'll say it again.

They choose which gender they associate more with, but they can't control the stuff going on in their brain any more than a lesbian woman or asexual man or whatever can just wake up and choose to be attracted to men.

Well, the thing is fluidity means that it changes. Some of them thinks they can control or affect it. I don't know if they are right or not,.

And I can only say what they said, that one or two off them was very offended when it was suggested that they couldn't.

And if there is one thing, I have learned from the sexuality debate then it is to accept how people want their individual sexuality/gender looked on.