590 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

esper wrote...

TK514 wrote...

This is premature. You're already complaining about a marketing effort that has barely begun and has over a year to go. You've got, what, six to nine minutes of video and a dozen or so stills to talk about so far? And that's the basis for your complaint?

It's interesting that you've decided to skip right past the request stage, 'Can we have some female representation in future DA:I marketing?' and instead felt it was the appropriate time for the complain stage "Inequality! They used a male pronoun and a handful of male concept art! Woe unto the female gamers!"

It's possible that in a few months your concern over lack of playable gals in the marketing will be born out, but if it is, it won't be because BioWare hates women. It'll be because they determined that since less than 1 out of 5 people finished a female playthrough in the last game they had a female PC in the marketing, they made a conscious decision that the demographic wasn't big enough to focus their limited marketing budget on.

Hopefully that won't be the case. Ideally we'll get some women being inquisitive in the marketing, but in my opinion while it's probably appropriate to request, it's way too early to complain about.

That is because there is inequality at this stage. The marketing has begun, thus they should already start to include their female gamers.

It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

As a black female gamer I am 100% for inclusion. But I don't understand this thread at all or even what the problem is. I agree with TK, you guys are jumping on the complain bus way too fast and over something so minor. 

Most people play male characters. I know I do. From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to focus funding on that. If I was on the Bioware marketing team, I certainly wouldn't even think of focus firing on the female PC. I wouldn't want to waste funds targeting a small number of consumers before my marketing budget run dry.

It makes sense to mention different races and not genders. Why on earth would they need to tell people that they can play as different genders? This is the middle of the series and we already know we can play as different genders. They are mentioning races because of the outcry over not being able to play elves and dwarves in the last game.  Why don't they go ahead and mention all the skin color types too, just so everyone will know that they can customize their character that way.

This is ridiculous.

[Parmida]

cjones91 wrote...

Parmida wrote...

LOL! I may be the only girl, but I enjoyed seeing that peace of beefcake Inquisitor in his full glory in leather armor and a FABULOUS hat! So hot!

That hat does look awesome,I wonder if it will come in different shapes and sizes?

It'd be awesome! Maybe one of the shapes could be a cowboy's hat? and cowboyish boots! you know those boots that have star on their ankle? it'd be epic! 

[Lord Raijin]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

Nope.

Just saying, I doubt you've NEVER complained about ANYTHING in your life before.

I never once complained about a gender related issues over a video game. I just find it a tad bit ridiculous.

[John Epler]

Lord Raijin wrote...

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

Nope.

Just saying, I doubt you've NEVER complained about ANYTHING in your life before.

I never once complained about a gender related issues over a video game. I just find it a tad bit ridiculous.

Which is rather the point. As a guy, we will never live in a world where we will be underrepresented in media. It is never going to happen.

So for us to say 'it's ridiculous to complain about your gender not being included!' is kind of silly, because we are in the privileged position of never, ever having to fight for that sort of inclusivity.

[Allan Schumacher]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Assumed by who? Marketing isn't primarily aimed at people who are already going to buy the game.

If I'm unfamiliar with Dragon Age, why would I assume that I can play a woman? There's lots of games where I can't.

Not all marketing is geared directly towards getting new fans, however. Sometimes it's about regaining confidence with fans that have felt alienated.

I thought it was pretty evident that much of the marketing has been addressing the very vocal concerns a lot of the fan base had with things, such as lack of player race, improved armor customization, and so forth.


So while it may not be acceptable for us to omit/under represent female protagonists in our discussion points, I hope you can understand how it may not have come up when trying to determine what to discuss in 3.5 minutes of footage.

At this point, in order to maintain fairness we wouldn't have been able to show the armor shots because there aren't (to my knowledge anyways) female concepts for many of them. So in that sense we have to pick and choose. We could be fair, and not show it and just talk about it. Or we could show it, and accept that some people are going to see that there's no women being represented and going to be unhappy.

It's a situation of recognizing that someone isn't going to be happy.

[Sundance31us]

As a female gamer I don't care what gender Inquisitor BW uses in its advertising; my only concern is that the development team have everything they need to make a great game.

[Soundsystem]

Hazegurl wrote...

esper wrote...

TK514 wrote...

This is premature. You're already complaining about a marketing effort that has barely begun and has over a year to go. You've got, what, six to nine minutes of video and a dozen or so stills to talk about so far? And that's the basis for your complaint?

It's interesting that you've decided to skip right past the request stage, 'Can we have some female representation in future DA:I marketing?' and instead felt it was the appropriate time for the complain stage "Inequality! They used a male pronoun and a handful of male concept art! Woe unto the female gamers!"

It's possible that in a few months your concern over lack of playable gals in the marketing will be born out, but if it is, it won't be because BioWare hates women. It'll be because they determined that since less than 1 out of 5 people finished a female playthrough in the last game they had a female PC in the marketing, they made a conscious decision that the demographic wasn't big enough to focus their limited marketing budget on.

Hopefully that won't be the case. Ideally we'll get some women being inquisitive in the marketing, but in my opinion while it's probably appropriate to request, it's way too early to complain about.

That is because there is inequality at this stage. The marketing has begun, thus they should already start to include their female gamers.

It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

As a black female gamer I am 100% for inclusion. But I don't understand this thread at all or even what the problem is. I agree with TK, you guys are jumping on the complain bus way too fast and over something so minor. 

Most people play male characters. I know I do. From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to focus funding on that. If I was on the Bioware marketing team, I certainly wouldn't even think of focus firing on the female PC. I wouldn't want to waste funds targeting a small number of consumers before my marketing budget run dry.

It makes sense to mention different races and not genders. Why on earth would they need to tell people that they can play as different genders? This is the middle of the series and we already know we can play as different genders. They are mentioning races because of the outcry over not being able to play elves and dwarves in the last game.  Why don't they go ahead and mention all the skin color types too, just so everyone will know that they can customize their character that way.

This is ridiculous.

Women are 45% of gamers. I don't see how that's a small number of consumers. Or how using a gender neuatral word like "themselves" would have been amiss or stretched the marketing budget to breaking point.

Or, if you read the discussion that has since taken place, what the issue is in asking that for future updates/marketing things Bioware keep in mind that it has fans who may not only want to see the same old same old white male protagonist and, since this is a game where you don't have to be that one set person, to have marketing reflect that.

You're also assuming that everyone watching magically knows they can customize the gender. When ME1 came out I thought you could only play as Male!Shep and didn't end up buying the game until a friend told me otherwise, just shortly before the release of ME2. 

[Lord Raijin]

Hazegurl wrote...

esper wrote...

TK514 wrote...

This is premature. You're already complaining about a marketing effort that has barely begun and has over a year to go. You've got, what, six to nine minutes of video and a dozen or so stills to talk about so far? And that's the basis for your complaint?

It's interesting that you've decided to skip right past the request stage, 'Can we have some female representation in future DA:I marketing?' and instead felt it was the appropriate time for the complain stage "Inequality! They used a male pronoun and a handful of male concept art! Woe unto the female gamers!"

It's possible that in a few months your concern over lack of playable gals in the marketing will be born out, but if it is, it won't be because BioWare hates women. It'll be because they determined that since less than 1 out of 5 people finished a female playthrough in the last game they had a female PC in the marketing, they made a conscious decision that the demographic wasn't big enough to focus their limited marketing budget on.

Hopefully that won't be the case. Ideally we'll get some women being inquisitive in the marketing, but in my opinion while it's probably appropriate to request, it's way too early to complain about.

That is because there is inequality at this stage. The marketing has begun, thus they should already start to include their female gamers.

It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

As a black female gamer I am 100% for inclusion. But I don't understand this thread at all or even what the problem is. I agree with TK, you guys are jumping on the complain bus way too fast and over something so minor. 

Most people play male characters. I know I do. From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to focus funding on that. If I was on the Bioware marketing team, I certainly wouldn't even think of focus firing on the female PC. I wouldn't want to waste funds targeting a small number of consumers before my marketing budget run dry.

It makes sense to mention different races and not genders. Why on earth would they need to tell people that they can play as different genders? This is the middle of the series and we already know we can play as different genders. They are mentioning races because of the outcry over not being able to play elves and dwarves in the last game.  Why don't they go ahead and mention all the skin color types too, just so everyone will know that they can customize their character that way.

This is ridiculous.

I agree with Hazegurl and TX.


<~~~~ How to stop your complaining habit hosted by a beautiful woman Learn from her and take her advice at heart

[esper]

Hazegurl wrote...

esper wrote...

TK514 wrote...

This is premature. You're already complaining about a marketing effort that has barely begun and has over a year to go. You've got, what, six to nine minutes of video and a dozen or so stills to talk about so far? And that's the basis for your complaint?

It's interesting that you've decided to skip right past the request stage, 'Can we have some female representation in future DA:I marketing?' and instead felt it was the appropriate time for the complain stage "Inequality! They used a male pronoun and a handful of male concept art! Woe unto the female gamers!"

It's possible that in a few months your concern over lack of playable gals in the marketing will be born out, but if it is, it won't be because BioWare hates women. It'll be because they determined that since less than 1 out of 5 people finished a female playthrough in the last game they had a female PC in the marketing, they made a conscious decision that the demographic wasn't big enough to focus their limited marketing budget on.

Hopefully that won't be the case. Ideally we'll get some women being inquisitive in the marketing, but in my opinion while it's probably appropriate to request, it's way too early to complain about.

That is because there is inequality at this stage. The marketing has begun, thus they should already start to include their female gamers.

It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

As a black female gamer I am 100% for inclusion. But I don't understand this thread at all or even what the problem is. I agree with TK, you guys are jumping on the complain bus way too fast and over something so minor. 

Most people play male characters. I know I do. From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to focus funding on that. If I was on the Bioware marketing team, I certainly wouldn't even think of focus firing on the female PC. I wouldn't want to waste funds targeting a small number of consumers before my marketing budget run dry.

It makes sense to mention different races and not genders. Why on earth would they need to tell people that they can play as different genders? This is the middle of the series and we already know we can play as different genders. They are mentioning races because of the outcry over not being able to play elves and dwarves in the last game.  Why don't they go ahead and mention all the skin color types too, just so everyone will know that they can customize their character that way.

This is ridiculous.

Because:
1. It acknowlegde the female fans instead of ignoring their existance.

2. We are not in the middle of the series every where. People new to dragon age, bioware or just BSN will not automatically assumme that customization include gender. If it is not shown in the marketting many female and player who wants to play females bitter experience is that you cannot play female, thus some of them won't even buy it.

3. It would not have cost them anything more than a second. It is easy to mention the female/male choice in the same breath the race choice was mentioned.

[Hazegurl]

Parmida wrote...

LOL! I may be the only girl, but I enjoyed seeing that peace of beefcake Inquisitor in his full glory in leather armor and a FABULOUS hat! So hot!

I know! LOL! I wonder if we can customize the body type so I can build the man of my dreams.

[Sylvianus]

Hazegurl wrote...

Most people play male characters. I know I do. From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to focus funding on that. If I was on the Bioware marketing team, I certainly wouldn't even think of focus firing on the female PC. I wouldn't want to waste funds targeting a small number of consumers before my marketing budget run dry.

Bioware is hardly pragmatic when it comes to inclusiveness. They are easily able to " waste funds targetting a small number of consumers with their marketing budget. "

For other companies, I'm sure, the more female gamers there will be, the more they'll take care of them. But for Bioware it has always meant more than that. Business. And that is why they have the respect of many people here as a company ( regardless of their game being good or not ) who have a very high opinion. And that is why these same people also have a very high expectation from them even for the marketting.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 août 2013 - 09:16 .

[esper]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Assumed by who? Marketing isn't primarily aimed at people who are already going to buy the game.

If I'm unfamiliar with Dragon Age, why would I assume that I can play a woman? There's lots of games where I can't.

Not all marketing is geared directly towards getting new fans, however. Sometimes it's about regaining confidence with fans that have felt alienated.

I thought it was pretty evident that much of the marketing has been addressing the very vocal concerns a lot of the fan base had with things, such as lack of player race, improved armor customization, and so forth.


So while it may not be acceptable for us to omit/under represent female protagonists in our discussion points, I hope you can understand how it may not have come up when trying to determine what to discuss in 3.5 minutes of footage.

At this point, in order to maintain fairness we wouldn't have been able to show the armor shots because there aren't (to my knowledge anyways) female concepts for many of them. So in that sense we have to pick and choose. We could be fair, and not show it and just talk about it. Or we could show it, and accept that some people are going to see that there's no women being represented and going to be unhappy.

It's a situation of recognizing that someone isn't going to be happy.

I am going to retract my statement that I was dissapointed with BSN more than bioware.

It is not just the armour. The gender option wasn't even mentioned, when it should have been at the customize your character option, and you can't tell me you didn't have the extra second it would have taken to say 'female/male, dwarf, elf or human, we know that it is important to you to custumize your character'.

Or that it would have been difficult to keep saying the Inqusitor and avoid pronomens.

This dashes my hope that you actually listened to the problem we are pointing out.

[Nyneve]

<~~~~ How to stop your complaining habit hosted by a beautiful woman Learn from her and take her advice at heart

You're right, how silly of me! Gosh, as a woman I shouldn't complain at all, I should just accept my underrepresentation in a medium I otherwise very much enjoy. But then again, what am I even doing playing video games instead of cooking a lovely dinner?

Seriously, we got comments from the devs and I understand that for now it was just an issue of non-finished artwork. I'm more concerned about the reaction this thread got, about how none of the points adresses are even an issue in marketing in general, which isn't true.

Modifié par Nyneve, 20 août 2013 - 09:17 .

[TK514]

Soundsystem wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

pdusen wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

And you are the one who gets to decide what is reasonable and what isn't?

How convient.

Just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't make caring about it unreasonable. 

No, I certainly am as capable of being unreasonable as everyone else.

I get that many female gamers feel that their lack of representation in game marketing is an open wound. But that is a feeling, and letting that be the basis of your disappointment is, by definition, unreasonable.

Eh? The basis of OPs (and mine) disappointment isn't hurt feelings, it's the fact that female player characters are underrepresentet in video games and as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist.

I just can't take this complaint even moderately seriously.  Saying 'as of right now, the marketing for DA:I is very centered on a male protagonist' is like being greeted at the front door by a man while a woman walks into another room and assuming that you are only ever going to see the man and glimpses of the woman.

And what would make us think otherwise?

DA:O, DA2, ME1, ME2. All save ME3 were marketed with only brief glimpses of the female PC, if that. Other game companies have certainly not given me any reason to think, "Oh. If I just sit back nicely and wait eventually they'll get around to me. Maybe."

You answered your own question.  ME3 should make you think otherwise.    If ME3 were ten years ago and every marketing effort by BioWare since then had been a total sausage fest, then you could dismiss it as an outlier.  However, ME3 is their most recent blockbuster marketing effort, and was clearly an improvement over past sausagefest, so why do you assume that the BioWare marketing division, having acknowledged female gamers and made moves to include them, would suddenly throw that out the windown and go back to the old way?  What has BioWare done between ME3 and now to make you assume that being inclusive is suddenly back off the table?

esper wrote...

But that is exactly what happens in 80 percent of games, so that is a fairly reasonable assumption.

That would certainly matter if BioWare were 80 percent of game developers.  Maybe if BioWare were Bethesda, or Atari, or whoever, it would be a reasonable assumption to make, but they aren't.  They're BioWare, and their most recent effort had multiple instances of focusing on the female protagonist.

Same question as above:  What has BioWare done lately to justify your assumption that they are suddenly going to revert to what '80 percent of games' developers do?


Or are you going to try to tell me that roughly ten minutes of total footage, with probably less than five of that being relevant, and some environmental concept art is enough to justify your refusal to give them the benefit of a doubt?

[Lord Raijin]

John Epler wrote...

Lord
Raijin wrote...

ManchesterUnitedFan1
wrote...

Nope.

Just saying, I doubt you've NEVER
complained about ANYTHING in your life before.

I never
once complained about a gender related issues over a video game. I
just find it a tad bit ridiculous.

Which is
rather the point. As a guy, we will never live in a world where we
will be underrepresented in media. It is never going to happen.

So
for us to say 'it's ridiculous to complain about your gender not
being included!' is kind of silly, because we are in the privileged
position of never, ever having to fight for that sort of
inclusivity.

As a guy I don't take what gets put in
a game seriously. A game is a game. I only worry about is the quality
story and charecter developments.I could sit here and make a whole new thread about how wrong it
is to not allow men to become the Divine in the white chantry, and
how sexiest the Chantry is when they don't allow brothers to become
fathers, and how men can't become Grand Clerics.

[lady_v23]

Oh man.. I just saw the vid.  And I want to cry.  This looks amazing! 

Now.. I'm a female. I saw the pics and most are male and the only thing in mind was "omg, they look amazing!  I need this game!"

Bioware is one the few that makes games where a female can be just as cool as a male.  And not be ****ty about it. So I'm not bother if most pics were male.  They're just starting.  Give them time, OP.  Honestly!  If they make the dudes this badass, the chicks will look boss!

Modifié par lady_v23, 20 août 2013 - 09:20 .

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Parmida wrote...

LOL! I may be the only girl, but I enjoyed seeing that peace of beefcake Inquisitor in his full glory in leather armor and a FABULOUS hat! So hot!

I know! LOL! I wonder if we can customize the body type so I can build the man of my dreams.

Yes! Male Inquisitor = HOT. And as a black female too, I don't really care about seeing a female Inquisitor in advertising. I'd really only care if she were non-white, but since that's unlikely to be the case, I just don't care. I've had much better luck with the character creator when making male protagonists anyway and that probably won't change. Male PC for me it is.

[Parmida]

Hazegurl wrote...

Parmida wrote...

LOL! I may be the only girl, but I enjoyed seeing that peace of beefcake Inquisitor in his full glory in leather armor and a FABULOUS hat! So hot!

I know! LOL! I wonder if we can customize the body type so I can build the man of my dreams.

AAAAAH! Bioware! what are ya doin' to me?! I'm on the brink of banging my head on my desk repeatedly untill I die of severe head trauma! This suspense is killing me slowly! I hope the release day comes as soon as possible! I love the Inquisitor.

[Allan Schumacher]

This is a 3 minute behind the scenes video, with a small amount of concept art and one developer calls the Inquisitor "Him", it does in no way represent the entire marketing strategy of the game.

This actually reminds me that as my friend and I talk about games like Mass Effect, we default to the protagonist we used during the conversation (without even blinking an eye at it anymore, actually).

I will be like: "It was cool when he blahblahblah" and then my friend would respond "I know! And then she follows up with blahblahblah"

It's actually kinda neat, in retrospect.

[phunx]

Filament wrote...

Prior knowledge of the franchise, and not assuming the use of "he" (which I did notice) is anything insidious when it could just be that that's the inquisitor those devs happen to relate to, being male themselves. If a female dev referred to the Inquisitor as a she, or a male dev who plays female characters referred to her as a she, etc. etc, that would all also be normal and not noteworthy.

I'm just pointing out there could be other reasons not to think in the "marketing inclusivity" frame beyond just "don't care, male." The frame I speak from is one that should be able to exist irrespective of gender.

I don't think anyone is trying to say there was anything insidious about the fact he used "he" (I didn't even notice that btw). He probably didn't even give it a second thought, it just came naturally - I think it'd be fair to say it's partially because of a male dominated gaming culture.

My biggest problem is they only showed male versions of the armor. There supposedly isn't even much concept art for female versions yet. This is also a bit problematic IMO.

[Nole]

This is so dumb.

[Sylvianus]

One part : I don't care. The other part, I care. How could we make everyone happy ? I'm sure it's easy to know.