590 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

I myself played Bioware games in my childhood (Neverwinter nights, to be specific) and really enjoyed them, but I too only found out about both Mass Effect and Dragon Age through other people.

As a young adult male I'm part of that demographic Bioware market to, but the marketing for both games was lost on me. Mass Effect in particular put me off because it looked like a generic shooting game similar to Halo, something I was never particularly interested in.

It was only when a friend mentioned how much they enjoyed the story and choices that I considered looking it up. When I saw you could play a female I was sold. It's not even that I usually play female characters in these games, but if a game has that option I know it will be the sort of game I will like as it reminded me of what I loved about those Bioware games I had played when I was a child.

Similarly with Dragon Age, I wasn't convinced when my dad showed me the trailers and I scoffed a bit at it, but he ordered it for himself anyway. A week before it arrived I looked it up just to see if it was something I'd be interested in and found the DA wiki. After several hours of browsing I was so excited about it's arrival I wished I hadn't looked and spoilt several things.

Bioware games have always handled sexuality and gender brilliantly, It's just a shame that the only place I ever really see that conveyed is on game journalist websites writing stories about controversy involving said elements. How many only know that Mass Effect 1 let you romance Liara as a female character because of that Fox news story? Or that Dragon Age 2's Li's are open to either gender because some website did a story about homophobic remarks some players made?

Modifié par EJ107, 21 août 2013 - 12:02 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

brushyourteeth wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Be interesting to see there marketing for the game from now on

I'm positive that they were always going to get around to showing us the female Inquisitor.

But like motomotogirl said, why is it something they'd have to get around to, rather than something that feels just as natural as designing and showing off the fellas?

Granted, the team has responded to this very quickly and, with a few minor disappointments, pretty well on the most part. They have already heard the fanbase and are already considering the problem. Some of them are probably even already upset that this disappointment has overshadowed the excitement for some fans.

At the end of the day, this was an unfortunate oversight and not the result of any intentional exclusion on the part of the developers. I'm a female fan, and I've always felt very cared about by the teams at Bioware. Their features of Morrigan, Cassandra, and Vivienne already have shown that they view women as formidable and interesting and vital parts of the story that they want to tell.

So really, this thread can hopefully run out of some steam soon. Some viable concerns were raised. The developers have heard them. Let's say what we still need to and then move along.

But not really an oversight when it just happens to be the same oversight absolutely every single time. So while it's only a minor irritation, it is still an irritation. I too will be interested to see if the future marketing bucks that trend.

[CuriousArtemis]

brushyourteeth wrote...

At the end of the day, this was an unfortunate oversight and not the result of any intentional exclusion on the part of the developers. I'm a female fan, and I've always felt very cared about by the teams at Bioware. Their features of Morrigan, Cassandra, and Vivienne already have shown that they view women as formidable and interesting and vital parts of the story that they want to tell.

Same! Certainly when it comes to the writing, DA and ME have both embraced feminism to the nth degree. Why else do you think I'm such a loyal customer xD

However, unintentional exclusion is still exclusion. It doesn't hurt to say, "Hey, you guys missed this one thing!" And then for them to say (as they have), "Oops, our bad. We'll look into that!"

brushyourteeth wrote...So really, this thread can hopefully run out of some steam soon. Some viable concerns were raised. The developers have heard them. Let's say what we still need to and then move along.

I would totally agree with you, except I did see DG's comments and thought he was missing the mark a little.  So I thought it wouldn't hurt to give my two cents.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Well, I would disagree that mass effect 'embraced' feminism due to how the asari were created and how women had more lesbian options than straight ones, but I suppose since this isn't the Mass Effect forum then discussion of that wouldn't be appropriate.

Dragon age certainly did.

[brushyourteeth]

motomotogirl wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

At the end of the day, this was an unfortunate oversight and not the result of any intentional exclusion on the part of the developers. I'm a female fan, and I've always felt very cared about by the teams at Bioware. Their features of Morrigan, Cassandra, and Vivienne already have shown that they view women as formidable and interesting and vital parts of the story that they want to tell.

Same! Certainly when it comes to the writing, DA and ME have both embraced feminism to the nth degree. Why else do you think I'm such a loyal customer xD

However, unintentional exclusion is still exclusion. It doesn't hurt to say, "Hey, you guys missed this one thing!" And then for them to say (as they have), "Oops, our bad. We'll look into that!"

brushyourteeth wrote...So really, this thread can hopefully run out of some steam soon. Some viable concerns were raised. The developers have heard them. Let's say what we still need to and then move along.

I would totally agree with you, except I did see DG's comments and thought he was missing the mark a little.  So I thought it wouldn't hurt to give my two cents.

I agreed with your post 100%, actually, and I'm really glad that you reminded me of Mr. Gaider's past comments on inclusion. What you said was perfect.

I tend to normally not feel much sympathy for gamers that want female protagonists but won't educate themselves and find out which games offer them. However, your story reminded me that there are some cases where potential fans don't know that they love video games until they find video games that they can love. It also reminded me that women are still in a place where we are surprised to find that we can qualify as heroes, and that's sad.

There's really no reason that female protagonists should be one of the franchise's best kept secrets. There could be thousands of women out there who have never picked up a game like DA before because they had no idea that one with DA's level of intelligent storytelling and inclusion existed. That's sad for them, and that's sad for the company.

[daaaav]

Not sure I understand.. Folk want more representation for a female inquisitor but they want the character to be written as gender neutral? How do you write a gender neutral character anyway? People are complex and exist on a myriad of scales including psychological profiles, gender, sexuality, preferences and cultures such that generalizations cannot be made against any individual BUT those scales exist!

Does anyone here actually think that the only things that define your gender are the way you look, dress and your biological anatomy? Actually, I'm sure there are and maybe I'm completely wrong but I can't agree with that. I hope that the female inquisitor's nature is greater than that of femshep in that she isn't just a re-skinned male protagonist.

But then again, I'm not sure, in that I don't think that there must be any fundamental difference in the ways that men and women approach the various challenges in their lives. But as human beings currently exist, there is a difference in the way men and women experience life.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

daaav, this thread is about equal MARKETING for a female protagonist. None of your post really relates to that I'm afraid :/

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Although, areyou saying you want *less* control over the character of our protagonist?

Huh. Well, that's new I must say!

[lastpatriot]

The reason they didn't show a female for the main character is because it would be too much of a spoiler. Think about it... at the end of ME:3, BioWare alludes to the possibility that Shepard was alive but in truth, she was sent back in time and to the world of Dragon Age where "POOF," she's now the inquisitor!

... you all know I'm right.

[wiccame]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

To be fair wiccame, Dragon Age has always been very good in the way it's handled gender in both games.

Thats true, DA have been good that way I just hope they don't forget that and follow that trend.

[Neon Rising Winter]

daaaav wrote...

Not sure I understand.. Folk want more representation for a female inquisitor but they want the character to be written as gender neutral? How do you write a gender neutral character anyway? People are complex and exist on a myriad of scales including psychological profiles, gender, sexuality, preferences and cultures such that generalizations cannot be made against any individual BUT those scales exist!

Does anyone here actually think that the only things that define your gender are the way you look, dress and your biological anatomy? Actually, I'm sure there are and maybe I'm completely wrong but I can't agree with that. I hope that the female inquisitor's nature is greater than that of femshep in that she isn't just a re-skinned male protagonist.

But then again, I'm not sure, in that I don't think that there must be any fundamental difference in the ways that men and women approach the various challenges in their lives. But as human beings currently exist, there is a difference in the way men and women experience life.

No, it's not an issue of how the character is written, it's how they are presented in promotional and marketing material, and a desire to see a decent representation of the female version of the character from an early stage.

[Mecha Elf]

As a female I just felt somewhat left out of the video, while I was a little disappointed I wasn't going to go cuckoo over a little thing such as when the devs says the inquisitor is a he.

[daaaav]

Narrow Margin wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Not sure I understand.. Folk want more representation for a female inquisitor but they want the character to be written as gender neutral? How do you write a gender neutral character anyway? People are complex and exist on a myriad of scales including psychological profiles, gender, sexuality, preferences and cultures such that generalizations cannot be made against any individual BUT those scales exist!

Does anyone here actually think that the only things that define your gender are the way you look, dress and your biological anatomy? Actually, I'm sure there are and maybe I'm completely wrong but I can't agree with that. I hope that the female inquisitor's nature is greater than that of femshep in that she isn't just a re-skinned male protagonist.

But then again, I'm not sure, in that I don't think that there must be any fundamental difference in the ways that men and women approach the various challenges in their lives. But as human beings currently exist, there is a difference in the way men and women experience life.

No, it's not an issue of how the character is written, it's how they are presented in promotional and marketing material, and a desire to see a decent representation of the female version of the character from an early stage.

The best marketing Bioware can do to attract female gamers is to make the gaming experience as good as possible for both male and female gamers. Marketing is nothing more than parlor tricks, smoke and mirrors. Putting a female inquisitor on the cover will do nothing to improve the gaming experience for female gamers. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Look, I've always liked more exposure for female protagonists in promotional materials but I really don't think the fact that there isn't a female PC in a 6 second preview of concept from a game that is over a year away is something that means female fans will be somehow excluded. This is essentially the first time we've seen any images of the PC at all. It's a little too early to be measuring gender equality in the game marketing. I think all the images of the Inquisitor looked like almost the same person in each drawing too,

[Potato Cat]

You only really need look at the various characters and lore to know just how inclusive DA (and Thedas) is towards women. The Thedosian equivalent of Jesus is a woman, the Church is ran almost exclusively by women, and they often hold top jobs, such as Knight Commander Meredith, First Enchanter Fiona, Queen Anora, (I think she's particularly great because she's so integral to the politics of Fereldan, and her political worth is not just limited to her marriagability), the Arigena, the hedge witches of Rivain, the many Dalish Keepers and Firsts, Paragon Branka. The best part is, I could probably continue that list. Most games I could count the number of important female characters on half of my left hand. I'm almost sure the dev in question was thinking of his Inquisitor when he said what he said.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

But daaav, I'm going to say it again, that isn't what this thread is about.

Feel free to start your own on the topic.

Also Mecha Elf, hardly anyone has even mentioned that comment. The vast majority of the discussion has been about marketing.

I'm getting a bit tired of people not reading the discussion before commenting if I'm honest.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@Elfman, yet *again*, another person commenting about what cameron said.

We. Do. Not. Care. About. That. Not most of the posters here.

We are NOT saying that women aren't presented well WITHIN the game. Not. At. All.

This is about the specific MARKETING of women, that even the devs stated was overlooked in this case.



Please give me a break about all the irrelevant stuff.



Yes I'm cranky, it's half 1 in the morning here and I can't sleep

Please make it so I only have to say this once more.

[Jessabeth]

Hazegurl wrote...


Girl crush alert! lol! I agree that the spotlight rarely go to people of color so imo, if the female inquisitor was marketed as a non white that would be far more noteworthy to me. And I agree, the bald female is looking pretty darn bad ass, and I say this as a straight woman lol! If I can make her in the character creator I may actually play a female in the game. DAO was the only bioware game I've ever played a female completely. I just had to romance Alistair at the time.

Lol, straight female here too. xD
But seriously, if I can play as someone who looks like her, I will. I'll even give up my normal red haired lady. xD
I need to go through and play male characters though. xD

[Neon Rising Winter]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

@Elfman, yet *again*, another person commenting about what cameron said.

We. Do. Not. Care. About. That. Not most of the posters here.

We are NOT saying that women aren't presented well WITHIN the game. Not. At. All.

This is about the specific MARKETING of women, that even the devs stated was overlooked in this case.



Please give me a break about all the irrelevant stuff.



Yes I'm cranky, it's half 1 in the morning here and I can't sleep

Please make it so I only have to say this once more.

Indeed, is anyone actually arguing they don't believe female characters will be handled well within the game itself? The argument is that it would be nice if promotional and marketing materials were to include female characters from an earlier stage than is normally the case. Okay, it's too late for it to be from stage 1, but commenting on that now hopefully increases the chance that stage 2 will deliver.

[daaaav]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

But daaav, I'm going to say it again, that isn't what this thread is about.

Feel free to start your own on the topic.

Also Mecha Elf, hardly anyone has even mentioned that comment. The vast majority of the discussion has been about marketing.

I'm getting a bit tired of people not reading the discussion before commenting if I'm honest.

Wow. Ok. Then I would join the chorus of folk commenting on the fact that this is the most preliminary of material and judging from the comments from various Bioware reps they are aware of it and that future material will be more representative of both gendered protagonists.

I am curious as to why you believe that focusing on marketing will further this cause rather than changing the core experience. Do females want to play female characters or well marketed male or "gender neutral" characters with a skin swap?

Apologies for the percieved derail.

Modifié par daaaav, 21 août 2013 - 12:41 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

I don't see why this is such an issue when it's well over a year away from the game. I'm sure you'll get more than your share of stuff with FemInquisitor, just like how ME3 marketing turned all FEMSHEP EVERYWHERE.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 21 août 2013 - 12:42 .

[Potato Cat]

You'll also have to excuse me. I am on my iPad and sometimes things go wrong on my end. The first half of my original post is missing. I said something like how I think the female Inquisitor should be marketed more, but you cannot blame the devs or the marketing team for not doing it as much as the male Inquisitor. It's still the average make they are typically aiming at for better or worse (worse) and they are most likely to buy the game. Which means more money for Bioware and EA and more DA games and more games which represent women in awesome ways. It's a shame they have to do it like that, but that's the world we live in right now.

[Neon Rising Winter]

daaaav wrote...

Wow. Ok. Then I would join the chorus of folk commenting on the fact that this is the most preliminary of material and judging from the comments from various Bioware reps they are aware of it and that future material will be more representative of both gendered protagonists.

I am curious as to why you believe that focusing on marketing will further this cause rather than changing the core experience. Do females want to play female characters or well marketed male or "gender neutral" characters with a skin swap?

Apologies for the percieved derail.

Given the topic is the use of female protagonists in marketing material, it's surely appropriate to consider how well the marketing material to date has addressed that. And yes, it's early stages. An excellent time to bring up any concerns, far better than in 8 months time.

As far as the characterisation within the game goes. It's unlikely the intricacies of the character will be apparent in marketing material which tends to focus more on game features and plot, so it doesn't seem much of an issue for this topic.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 21 août 2013 - 12:46 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Reading comprehension, what is it.

But yup, I agree. Would like a more equal representation with genders in marketing. And not in the ridiculous circus act like ME3 was.