590 réponses à ce sujet

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Filament, no I didn't. I used it to cation the thread because the caption was appropriate, but my actual points, as you will have gained from reading the thread, don't really take this comment into account.

And @daaav, I think it's simple. The type of people who are already laying dragon age and seeing how weel they are presented aren't the focus; it's the players of other games who may be stuck in their ways of thinking that female protagonists don't work, or aren't as good.

Changing the marketing can, and will, affect that.

In addition, if Bioware markets femquisitor just as much as manquisitor, and the game sells well regardless, perhaps gaming companies will start to feel more comfortable about it as well, and by extention will start to put more female protagonists in games.


I think making the female charatcer more likely to 'act as a female would', or whatever you think needs to be changed, would be downright insulting to Bioware's audience.

WE want to define our characters ourselves; we do not want them to be defined by their gender!


So following your logic, do you think all black protagonists should act more 'black'? All gay protagonists should act more 'gay'?

The entire point of RPGs is that it leaves the character of our protagonist UP TO US to decide!

My Hawke was a masculine lesbian, my warden was a feminine Alistair-romancer. If these characters, who were made completely different, were made more similar by Bioware just because of their gender, then I would be very sad.

Each player character in a game like this should be defined by the player as much as possible.

I suppose you also supported auto-dialogue in Mass Effect 3?

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Oh gosh what an embarrassing post to be top of the page.

Right now I'm just really cranky, so I'll be logging off to go to bed hehe, I may reply again in the morning.

Take care.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Ok right just saw that before I went to bed.

You're right. I *mention* it in the OP. The focus of the OP, and of the vast majority of discussion since, has not been regarding that. I, earlier, have said that I do not mind his comment too much, it just happened in combination with everything else so I felt it was appropriate to mention it.

Right, now I am ACTUALLY logging off haha, night.

[Nightdragon8]

... Bioware has been good with it as a game company.

so it seems that people are "mad" that they didn't show the female models of the character in a video that is very short. and only features some single combat...

what exactly are we complaining about?? Bioware games have been really good about having both genders playable in all there games. I can maybe only think of a few that didn't let you play as a woman.

So what if they didn't show a female model during a technical video about gameplay. IMO they are really unfounded fears.

Also just because he used the term "Him" doesn't mean that there wont be a female character.

Cause I think he is working on the combat mechanics system which wont matter which gender your playing as. The only difference will be animations, and because combat mechnics does NOT equal combat *animations, need to take a few deep breaths and calm down.

As for the marketing stuff.. Honestly, I think most of it is BS anyway, cause 99% of ALL coverart is fake and does not repersent the game.

The idea of if a female is on it females will by it. honestly I think that would be MORE insulting than if there was a male on it. ** games shoudl be about the game not about any feminiane or male "agenda" it should be aboutt he story being told not the % of whites blacks other in the game. its a GAME its to tell you a story. I don't care if your black white purple with green pokadots.

Cause honestly makes it sound as if women only look at the covers of things and are seriously single minded.

(*fixed brain fart)
(**added another thought)

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 21 août 2013 - 01:05 .

[daaaav]

I didn't really say any of that...

My last response to this as it isn't really thread related, but the options are:

- Have male and female "flavored" distinct protagonists
- Masculine and feminine options available to the same protagonist
- A gender neutral or beige protagonist...

[Neon Rising Winter]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

... Bioware has been good with it as a game company.

so it seems that people are "mad" that they didn't show the female models of the character in a video that is very short. and only features some single combat...

what exactly are we complaining about?? Bioware games have been really good about having both genders playable in all there games. I can maybe only think of a few that didn't let you play as a woman.

So what if they didn't show a female model during a technical video about gameplay. IMO they are really unfounded fears.

Also just because he used the term "Him" doesn't mean that there wont be a female character.

Cause I think he is working on the combat mechanics system which wont matter which gender your playing as. The only difference will be animations, and because combat mechnics does NOT equal combat mechanics, need to take a few deep breaths and calm down.

As for the marketing stuff.. Honestly, I think most of it is BS anyway, cause 99% of ALL coverart is fake and does not repersent the game.

The idea of if a female is on it females will by it. honestly I think that would be MORE insulting than if there was a male on it.

Cause honestly makes it sound as if women only look at the covers of things and are seriously single minded.

I think you've missed the main thrust of the argument, which is a desire to see an increased representation of women in promotional and marketing material. And certainly while Bioware have been very good with the representation of female protagonists in their games themselves, on this side it's been treated more as a last thought tacked on at the end than an ongoing part of the process.

It's not about cover art or the odd comment in a video, it's about seeing a female protagonist represented throughout the material released over the next year. I'm actually quite hopeful this will happen, they do seem to have moved more towards it the last couple of releases. Still, based on past performance it's far from a foregone conclusion, so it doesn't hurt to talk about the idea, keep it bubbling away there.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

And the middle one is best, is it not Daaav?

[daaaav]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

And the middle one is best, is it not Daaav?

Agreed.

I don't want the last one though.

[Potato Cat]

I play almost exclusively female PCs. Having a female protagonist or the option to play as one is often a serious consideration before buying any game. I want female protagonists marketed, I want greater and better representation of women in video games. But I don't want a great series like DA to suffer if marketing a female protagonist as much as a male would negatively affect the game's sales in any way. Now I don't believe for a second that would be the case in a million years, but I don't necessarily want DA to be the guinea pig. I hate myself for thinking that way, but I think its for the best.

[Nightdragon8]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

... Bioware has been good with it as a game company.

so it seems that people are "mad" that they didn't show the female models of the character in a video that is very short. and only features some single combat...

what exactly are we complaining about?? Bioware games have been really good about having both genders playable in all there games. I can maybe only think of a few that didn't let you play as a woman.

So what if they didn't show a female model during a technical video about gameplay. IMO they are really unfounded fears.

Also just because he used the term "Him" doesn't mean that there wont be a female character.

Cause I think he is working on the combat mechanics system which wont matter which gender your playing as. The only difference will be animations, and because combat mechnics does NOT equal combat mechanics, need to take a few deep breaths and calm down.

As for the marketing stuff.. Honestly, I think most of it is BS anyway, cause 99% of ALL coverart is fake and does not repersent the game.

The idea of if a female is on it females will by it. honestly I think that would be MORE insulting than if there was a male on it.

Cause honestly makes it sound as if women only look at the covers of things and are seriously single minded.

I think you've missed the main thrust of the argument, which is a desire to see an increased representation of women in promotional and marketing material. And certainly while Bioware have been very good with the representation of female protagonists in their games themselves, on this side it's been treated more as a last thought tacked on at the end than an ongoing part of the process.

It's not about cover art or the odd comment in a video, it's about seeing a female protagonist represented throughout the material released over the next year. I'm actually quite hopeful this will happen, they do seem to have moved more towards it the last couple of releases. Still, based on past performance it's far from a foregone conclusion, so it doesn't hurt to talk about the idea, keep it bubbling away there.

I'm no marketing expert, but the reason *I* buy games is if the game is fun. I don't give a damn if the protag is male female other. If the game sucks, I'm not going to buy it.

The games are won and lost, in how fun the game is, how enjoyable the game is. I didn't buy and play Tomb Raider because Lara Croft is a woman, I played it because it was fun hand a pretty good story, and it was decent for a "Orgin" story for Lara Croft.

Honestly I don't think the issue about the "female market" in game sales has anything really to do with marketing.

There may be a more general genere in which women are drawn to.

Cause I honestly can't beleave that putting a woman on the front cover makes that much of a big difference in "Female sales"

[Neon Rising Winter]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I'm no marketing expert, but the reason *I* buy games is if the game is fun. I don't give a damn if the protag is male female other. If the game sucks, I'm not going to buy it.

The games are won and lost, in how fun the game is, how enjoyable the game is. I didn't buy and play Tomb Raider because Lara Croft is a woman, I played it because it was fun hand a pretty good story, and it was decent for a "Orgin" story for Lara Croft.

Honestly I don't think the issue about the "female market" in game sales has anything really to do with marketing.

There may be a more general genere in which women are drawn to.

Cause I honestly can't beleave that putting a woman on the front cover makes that much of a big difference in "Female sales"

You're not really addressing my point though. You're talking about female markets and cover art, but I didn't mention selling to the female market, and as I said before who is on the front cover isn't really what I'm talking about.

As for me, there's no need to sell the game to me, I'm sold. What I said was I would like to see more screentime for female protagonists in the promotional material for this game than has been the case previously. I'm not clear if you're for, against or indifferent to that?

[Sherbet Lemon]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I'm no marketing expert, but the reason *I* buy games is if the game is fun. I don't give a damn if the protag is male female other. If the game sucks, I'm not going to buy it.

The games are won and lost, in how fun the game is, how enjoyable the game is. I didn't buy and play Tomb Raider because Lara Croft is a woman, I played it because it was fun hand a pretty good story, and it was decent for a "Orgin" story for Lara Croft.

Honestly I don't think the issue about the "female market" in game sales has anything really to do with marketing.

There may be a more general genere in which women are drawn to.

Cause I honestly can't beleave that putting a woman on the front cover makes that much of a big difference in "Female sales"

I think this is key to understanding the disconnect right here.  Is putting a woman on the cover going to rouse a sleeping, slumbering women from around the world or the ones who have never played a game or only play Candy Crush Saga (I'm not judging, really) on Facebook thundering in here grabing up DAI as first adopters, well no, not likely.

BUT--there is no innate gene in women that says women just don't like this genre or video games.  It's about the culture.  This is where the but comes in.  If the culture continuously makes games that primarily show men in lead roles or women in subordinate roles (or non existent or as objects), then women ultimately decide this is NOT for me.  This is for men.  It goes a bit further (and is more complicated) than that too because ostensibly women (generally of course there are exceptions) have been asked to accept traditonally masculine media in way that normalizes and renders it invisible.  

Marketing works.  Advertising works because it reaffirms the cultural noise we get from all our media.  It's just the reality of it.  I could go on and on about but this isn't the place or time.  Just google Edward Bernays and Jean Kilbourne if you're curious.  Neil Postman's "Amusing Ourselves To Death" is a little too doomsdayish for me, but still makes some incredibly relevant observations that are absolutely fundamentally true.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 21 août 2013 - 01:36 .

[Merilsell]

pdusen wrote...
Why does the underrepresentation of female player characters in general, and in DAI marketing in particular, upset you?

Just leaving this here, to answer the question:

Because default representation matters. If the default is a white dude, that says something to anyone picking up the game for the first time. It says, “this guy here, he’s the 'hero'” and if you don’t identify with that, if you’re a woman or a poc or queer and you make your character fit that, it says, “you’re the 'other'”

Yes, we can play as women and pocs and such, but it’s hammered home that the default is the white dude and anything else is ‘other’ and that’s not a pleasant message.

[In Exile]

Merilsell wrote...
Because default representation matters. If the default is a white dude, that says something to anyone picking up the game for the first time. It says, “this guy here, he’s the 'hero'” and if you don’t identify with that, if you’re a woman or a poc or queer and you make your character fit that, it says, “you’re the 'other'”

Yes, we can play as women and pocs and such, but it’s hammered home that the default is the white dude and anything else is ‘other’ and that’s not a pleasant message.

Which is why, of course, the solution is not to have any default at all. Especially when you can have such a varied caste of characters, in terms of gender, skin colour and fantasy race. 

Bioware got that far with the lack of a preset character, now it just has to go a bit farther to the representation of the protagonist. 

[daaaav]

Narrow Margin wrote...



You're not really addressing my point though. You're talking about female markets and cover art, but I didn't mention selling to the female market, and as I said before who is on the front cover isn't really what I'm talking about.

As for me, there's no need to sell the game to me, I'm sold. What I said was I would like to see more screentime for female protagonists in the promotional material for this game than has been the case previously. I'm not clear if you're for, against or indifferent to that?

By it's very nature, marketing follows social conventions. It doesn't set them. The only reason to market a female protagonist is to appeal to people who want to play a female protagonist. This market is is a plurality of women with a lower proportion of men. 

The actual product itself is a much better vessel for furthering the representation of women in the gaming industry as it can actively generate change in social conventions through the same mechanisms employed by various forms of literature throughout our history. 

Modifié par daaaav, 21 août 2013 - 01:44 .

[In Exile]

daaaav wrote...
By it's very nature, marketing follows social conventions. It doesn't set them. The only reason to market a female protagonist is to appeal to people who want to play a female protagonist. This market is is a plurality of women with a lower proportion of men. 

The actual product itself is a much better vessel for furthering the representation of women in the gaming industry as it can actively generate change in social conventions through the same mechanisms employed by various forms of literature throughout our history. 

Marketing can certainly push the social envelope, when part of the target is not the social convention itself, but also the marketing convention. Part of having that change is showing that it can change and still succeed. 

In this case, having a greater proportion of market represent the female Inquisitor is a step forward. 

[AlexanderCousland]

This topic is quite amusing, " I want more She's than He's please, or can we just make everything that was a He into a She? Or can we make She's act like He's, because my She is a little too SHE."

It's a hilarious proposal! The same treatment for everyone even though everyone is not the same. I agree with the OP in principal however I think the people on this thread could be a great deal better at explaining what they mean.

[Jessabeth]

Merilsell wrote...

Just leaving this here, to answer the question:

Because default representation matters. If the default is a white dude, that says something to anyone picking up the game for the first time. It says, “this guy here, he’s the 'hero'” and if you don’t identify with that, if you’re a woman or a poc or queer and you make your character fit that, it says, “you’re the 'other'”

Yes, we can play as women and pocs and such, but it’s hammered home that the default is the white dude and anything else is ‘other’ and that’s not a pleasant message.

Well now the world might explode if we had a POC female on the cover. 

[KiwiQuiche]

Jessabeth wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

Just leaving this here, to answer the question:

Because default representation matters. If the default is a white dude, that says something to anyone picking up the game for the first time. It says, “this guy here, he’s the 'hero'” and if you don’t identify with that, if you’re a woman or a poc or queer and you make your character fit that, it says, “you’re the 'other'”

Yes, we can play as women and pocs and such, but it’s hammered home that the default is the white dude and anything else is ‘other’ and that’s not a pleasant message.

Well now the world might explode if we had a POC female on the cover. 

Some people are certainly behaving like that would be the case.

[d-boy15]

BSN is really strange these days...

Modifié par d-boy15, 21 août 2013 - 02:12 .

[Steelcan]

(mountain out of a mole hill)

[PadawanMage71]

Got a point. Seems almost anathema for any developer or whoever makes a vid to actually say something like, 'You can male, you can be FEMALE.'

I'm racking my head but I can't come up with any game where in it's development cycle they actually mentioned you could be either sex from the get go... 

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

 Now before this starts to seem too confrontational, I honestly do understand that the majority of your target market is male, Bioware, I do. However I think it would have been nice to at least see one or two concept arts or hear a mention of a female inquisitor; from what I saw in the gamescom video, not only was the inquisitor referred to as a male but all the concept arts seemed to depict a male one as well (although one was dubious, but the same shaped character was male in another art so I'm pretty sure it was a he).

Maybe I'm reading too much into concept art, but at this stage the concept art is a big part of the marketing material being released, and the absence of a woman is annoying me a tiny bit.

Maybe I have completely missed some other concept art of a female inquisitor, and I would welcome seeing it if that were the case

Sorry about this, it's just the genral lack of female hawke in marketing for Da2 really rubbed me the wrong way ahaha.

inb4 entitled, inb4 it's just concept art, inb4 you're getting worked up over nothing

[Lokiwithrope]

What's wrong with the default being a male? There's only two genders.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

What's wrong with the default being a male? There's only two genders.

Look up a few posts and you'll see some very well explained comments on the issues with this.