590 réponses à ce sujet

[MiSS Provencale]

Blackrising wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Dear feminists.... Please avoid having anything to do with Dragon Age. I don't want you to intimidate the Dragon Age Bioware team staffs to put more feminine crap in the game just to please you. I personally do not want to be forced to be a female Inquisitor! If it bothers you that much then you should play another game. Go play Tomb raider or something.

I can't believe people are complaining about this already. GO complain about something else already.

We are not feminists we just want some legitimate equality for female players and this is normal.:devil:

Personally, I would argue that everyone who wants equal rights (be they in gaming or otherwise) for women is a feminist.

It's kinda sad how being a feminist is now apparently something bad.

You are right . its me makes me angry to see people who put comments as radical .

Fortunately this is a minority

[esper]

TK514 wrote...

esper wrote...

That is because there is inequality at this stage. The marketing has begun, thus they should already start to include their female gamers.

It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

That's absurd.  There aren't even remotely enough examples for a reasonable inequality complaint at this stage in the marketing.  The absolute worst you could say is that they haven't made a focused effort to differentiate gender, at which point I'm going to laugh at you for manufacturing a reason to whine.

All the promint inqusitors at this state has been male. There has been perhaps one or two women and those is blink and miss.

I am not talking about differentiate gender, I am talking about showing your female custumors that they are just as important as your male. It doesn't take much effort.

[MissOuJ]

Lord Raijin wrote...

It doesn't intimidate me at all. I'm just sick of tired of reading ridiculous complaints from the feminists regarding to lack of models of female Inquisitors. IMO that is NOT all that important. Whats truly important is the quality of the game, and the story... not which gender gets posted up on the cover.

It's easy to say "gender doesn't matter" when you're a guy. Like 70 % of media is geared towards you, and no matter what movie/show you're watching, or which game you're playing, or which book you're reading, you can be almost 100 % sure there's someone of your identified gender who's portrayed positively/realistically. Not so much with us women. And we don't even have the worst of it: other marginalized people, like people of colour, gender and sexual minorities are even worse off.

Representation matters.

[brushyourteeth]

AutumnWitch wrote...

As a woman, lesbian, feminist and writer I am saddened again it appears (and I admit I am assuming here) from what we saw in the video BW is designing DAI with the fact that the protagonist is male. Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs,

Many here will ask? What is wrong with that? Well in my opinion it belittles the female sex to an afterthought of the male. I ask you BW? How different do you think this story would be if the protagonist was a woman and seeing the world through her eyes? I am not saying one is better than the other but what I am saying is that they are different.

No matter how many people want it to not be, the fact is men and women see and experience the world differently. If the game had been written for a female protagonist I bet that there would have to be some changes that would have to be made if the player chose to play male. But for some reason, when a game is written for a male, there doesn't seem to be the same concern for making changes if someone wants to play as female. What this means is just what I said above, by not making the female experience different than the males you are basically saying the male experience should be good enough for you without any changes, which belittles women by basically saying a man's experience is somehow more universal or even better.

This is the very reason that when the game is developed/written the male POV is almost always chosen even if the player can choose to play as female. As a society, it has been assumed that the male POV/experience is somehow more universal than choosing to write it as a female POV. It is assumed that instead of writing two different POV's the male's is good enough for both. But do we ever see that the other way round? And the fact that we don't (or hardly ever do) means that somewhere out there it is assumed that the female POV/experience isn't suitable or good enough for men. So basically as women we have to choose (in most gaming) to just make do because it should be good enough for us to enjoy.

I was truly hoping this time that maybe BW might understand this and give us women something special, just for us (and those who want to play as us).

I'm not exactly sure how your being a lesbian or a writer is supposed to make you a more model feminist than straight women and non-writers.

There may be a subtle sexism in the fact that Bioware completed their male marketing assets first, but if you believe David Gaider (and I do) they simply had those finished first and so they showed them first. Women aren't being excluded, and being female has always had reactivity in the games (sometimes more reactivity than parts of the female fanbase has approved of, actually).

[wrigleyviller]

Sadly, this problem with the male-oriented marketing of video games is widespread. Recently, Sony wanted to leave Ellie (the female lead) off the cover of The Last of Us, and the developer refused.

http://metro.co.uk/2...-of-us-3315463/

Obviously DAI will allow us to play a female Inquisitor, but the way the game is marketed is important too. The marketing is what people who don't play the game get to see, and it's the first thing everyone sees about the game. Making it appear that there is no female lead provides another drop in an ocean of exclusively male-oriented video game marketing - even if, in the end, you can play as a female character. And given the way some BW devs, notably David Gaider, have talked extensively about being more inclusive it's hard to see how these marketing materials conform to that ideal.

I have to say, BioWare is about as forward-thinking and progressive as video game companies get. They've been remarkably open to criticism in the past, and I hope they take this issue to heart in the future as well.

And to be clear: I'm saying this as a man who plays exclusively as male characters in DAO, DAA, and DA2. I'd still like for the game, and the marketing around the game, and the general culture surrounding video games, to be more welcoming and inclusive to those - like women - who often feel left out or ignored.

[pdusen]

esper wrote...

No, but mention you can play as both a man and a woman and showcasing both equally is pretty important. And it wouldn't have taken him more than a second. "You can play as man, woman - elf, dwarf and human because we know how important custimization is to you."

The later it is done, the more the female inqusitor will seems as just an after thought.

Why is showcasing both equally important? Maybe they mostly showed the male inquisitor because concept and modeling work on the male inquisitor happens to have gotten done faster?

By the way, that doesn't necessarily mean that the male inquisitor was being prioritized over the female one. It's possible that they just got the Male concept art in a good place right away, while the female concept art didn't turn out that well and had to be redone a few times, which would delay its completion.

[ScarMK]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs,

I fail to see how whether or not something is dangling between your legs changes the outcome of an event.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@AutumnWitch, in all honesty that doesn't really sound like equality.

I fight for people being treated equally, not for there being an entirely different game experience if you play as a woman.

[esper]

If I am completely honest the ones I am dissapointed with right now is not bioware. The marketing staff is properly male dominated and thus it properly didn't occur to them.

The one I am dissapointed in is BSN'er who tries to brush it off. Bioware has so far reacted with surprise and all in all shown their was no malice on their part and I have faith they will be sure to include the female as quick as they can now.

But those on BSN that says it doesn't matter - that is the real problem.

[John Epler]

It's worth remembering that, as men, it's very easy for us to say 'I don't see a problem!'

The vast majority of protagonists and heroes in media are men. Privilege is basically the acknowledgment that, as far as culture goes, you are the default. Recognizing that and acknowledging that people fighting for more inclusivity are entirely correct to do so isn't easy, but it's necessary if you want to have conversations about these sorts of issues.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@MissOuJ, careful of what you say; I am a guy and I try my best to empathise with others. Just because people are male it does not mean it's harder for them to see injustice where it occurs; they aren't saying those things because they're male, they are saying them because that's just who they are and what they believe.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Although actually I do see what you mean I think, that men are used to being given preferential treatment in the gaming industry and so don't see it as a problem.

[AutumnWitch]

ScarMK wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs,

I fail to see how whether or not something is dangling between your legs changes the outcome of an event.

Ask that of a rape victim. .

[esper]

pdusen wrote...

esper wrote...

No, but mention you can play as both a man and a woman and showcasing both equally is pretty important. And it wouldn't have taken him more than a second. "You can play as man, woman - elf, dwarf and human because we know how important custimization is to you."

The later it is done, the more the female inqusitor will seems as just an after thought.

Why is showcasing both equally important? Maybe they mostly showed the male inquisitor because concept and modeling work on the male inquisitor happens to have gotten done faster?

By the way, that doesn't necessarily mean that the male inquisitor was being prioritized over the female one. It's possible that they just got the Male concept art in a good place right away, while the female concept art didn't turn out that well and had to be redone a few times, which would delay its completion.

Because the option of playing female is absolutely not guranteed with a promise of customization, the least he could have done was mention it when talking about the different kind of inqusitor we could play. Words don't need concept art.

[pdusen]

John Epler wrote...

It's worth remembering that, as men, it's very easy for us to say 'I don't see a problem!'

The vast majority of protagonists and heroes in media are men. Privilege is basically the acknowledgment that, as far as culture goes, you are the default. Recognizing that and acknowledging that people fighting for more inclusivity are entirely correct to do so isn't easy, but it's necessary if you want to have conversations about these sorts of issues.

It's not a matter of privilege. I don't see a problem because there is no problem. If Bioware had filled that video almost entirely with female protagonists, or referred to to the Inquisitor as a She, I wouldn't have even blinked at it. Hell, almost every Tabletop RPG book I've ever read has done exactly that.

The only implications are the ones that you put into it.

Modifié par pdusen, 20 août 2013 - 07:51 .

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Well often don't, obviously there are a lot who do see the problem.

[Nyneve]

AutumnWitch wrote...

As a woman, lesbian, feminist and writer I am saddened again it appears (and I admit I am assuming here) from what we saw in the video BW is designing DAI with the fact that the protagonist is male. Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs.

Many here will ask? What is wrong with that? Well in my opinion it belittles the female sex to an afterthought of the male. I ask you BW? How different do you think this story would be if the protagonist was a woman and seeing the world through her eyes? I am not saying one is better than the other but what I am saying is that they are different.

No matter how many people want it to not be, the fact is men and women see and experience the world differently. If the game had been written for a female protagonist I bet that there would have to be some changes that would have to be made if the player chose to play male. But for some reason, when a game is written for a male, there doesn't seem to be the same concern for making changes if someone wants to play as female. What this means is just what I said above, by not making the female experience different than the males you are basically saying the male experience should be good enough for you without any changes, which belittles women by basically saying a man's experience is somehow more universal or even better.

This is the very reason that when the game is developed/written the male POV is almost always chosen even if the player can choose to play as female. As a society, it has been assumed that the male POV/experience is somehow more universal than choosing to write it as a female POV. It is assumed that instead of writing two different POV's the male's is good enough for both. But do we ever see that the other way round? And the fact that we don't (or hardly ever do) means that somewhere out there it is assumed that the female POV/experience isn't suitable or good enough for men. So basically as women we have to choose (in most gaming) to just make do because it should be good enough for us to enjoy.

I was truly hoping this time that maybe BW might understand this and give us women something special, just for us (and those who want to play as us).

Hmm. You make some good points, but all in all I have to disagree. I don't want to play from a female POV, I want a gender neutral POV. Because what exactly should change when you play as female? Some PCs do make comments, but I think wheter in real life or in the games, the differences between individuals are wider than between the gender, and I wouldn't want anyone to assume that there's one type of how women see the world. They could be stereotypically feminine or masculine or somewhere in between and the game can't really have that many variables for different genders for the PC, so just make it the same as on the playthrough with a male PC.

And yeah, I'd like to see more female Inquisotors in marketing. Also, there seem to be a lot of people here who use the word "feminist" as sort of an insult? It's not.

[AutumnWitch]

esper wrote...

If I am completely honest the ones I am dissapointed with right now is not bioware. The marketing staff is properly male dominated and thus it properly didn't occur to them.

The one I am dissapointed in is BSN'er who tries to brush it off. Bioware has so far reacted with surprise and all in all shown their was no malice on their part and I have faith they will be sure to include the female as quick as they can now.

But those on BSN that says it doesn't matter - that is the real problem.

Very good point and I hope you are right.

[MiSS Provencale]

Macho macho meeeeeeeen!!!! lol it's juste a joke....

[esper]

AutumnWitch wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs,

I fail to see how whether or not something is dangling between your legs changes the outcome of an event.

Ask that of a rape victim. .

Male can get raped too. Both by other males and females. It is in fact properly more difficult for a male who was raped by a female because a lot won't take that seriously.

[MissOuJ]

John Epler wrote...

It's worth remembering that, as men, it's very easy for us to say 'I don't see a problem!'

The vast majority of protagonists and heroes in media are men. Privilege is basically the acknowledgment that, as far as culture goes, you are the default. Recognizing that and acknowledging that people fighting for more inclusivity are entirely correct to do so isn't easy, but it's necessary if you want to have conversations about these sorts of issues.

Exactly! Very well put.

[ScarMK]

AutumnWitch wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs,

I fail to see how whether or not something is dangling between your legs changes the outcome of an event.

Ask that of a rape victim. .

It's to my understanding that both genders can be raped.  Only that it's easier for it to be done to women.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

'AustumnWitch,rape is hardly relevant to this discussion.

@pdusen, well it's good if YOU don't think there's a problem, but by the sounds of it most people think that there IS a problem,and so you shouldn't try to obstruct us from finding a solution to it.

[Soundsystem]

pdusen wrote...

esper wrote...
It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

They didn't mention hair either.

Women not being shown does not equal hair not being shown.

I would hope we value half the human race slightly higher than hair. Maybe.

Lord Raijin wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

I'm sorry equality intimidates you so.

Much as you do not want to be forced to be a female Inquisitor, I do not want to be forced to be a male Inquisitor. All we are asking for is that marketing and such reflect that there are two gender options available. If that bothers you so much go read a different forum.

Unlike asking for human/dwarf/elf options to get equal marketing time, women are actually real, and are a large part of Bioware's target audience.

It doesn't intimidate me at all. I'm just sick of tired of reading ridiculous complaints from the feminists regarding to lack of models of female Inquisitors. IMO that is NOT all that important. Whats truly important is the quality of the game, and the story... not which gender gets posted up on the cover.

It's easy for you as a male gamer to say that, having always been catered to. However, I'm sure that Bioware decided to market this game only with female PC's and only put the female PC on the cover you and many other male gamers would be complaining. Even though really all you should care about is the quality of art and story.

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

@soundsystem

Femshep had Kelly as well (who does count as a full romance; she appears as a flashback at least.)

So that gives Mshep with 7 straight options and 2 gay, and femshep with 2 straight options and 3 lesbian. Hardly seems fair.

Yes. The difference between Man!Shep's romance options and Fem!Shep's romance options is ridiculous. I was just talking about the difference that you mentioned, that between straight Fem!Shep and queer Fem!Shep. Which is 2 and 3 and not as glaring.