590 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

They can do exactly what you want to do Autumn witch, it is all doable. The game is not 10 hours long. If you cannot consider game resources and priorities in a game you are seriously uniformed. Not only that to rail on BioWare who has been far ahead of the loop in equality of all sorts is stupid. and I don't often use that word to describe a poster. There is a list of about 1000 games far worse than BioWare in this regard. I can only hope you expend as much energy on the Wit5hcer forums as on here.

[phunx]

pdusen wrote...
It's not a matter of privilege. I don't see a problem because there is no problem. If Bioware had filled that video almost entirely with female protagonists, or referred to to the Inquisitor as a She, I wouldn't have even blinked at it. Hell, almost every Tabletop RPG book I've ever read has done exactly that.

The only implications are the ones that you put into it.

It clearly is a problem, since it bothers people? But it doesn't bother you - so you're saying it's not a problem. That's textbook privilege, sorry.

[Maria Caliban]

Whoa.

This is a thread about marketing a female Inquisitor. Not about sexual assault.

[John Epler]

We are not discussing rape in this thread.

It is not relevant to DAI.

Modifié par John Epler, 20 août 2013 - 07:55 .

[pdusen]

Soundsystem wrote...

pdusen wrote...

esper wrote...
It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

They didn't mention hair either.

Women not being shown does not equal hair not being shown.

I would hope we value half the human race slightly higher than hair. Maybe.

Sure. But as far as the game is concerned, both of them are customization options that require swapping in alternate assets. The fact that hair was not mentioned in that particular soundbyte doesn't somehow invalidate hair as a customization option.

The exact same is true for gender.

[brushyourteeth]

phunx wrote...

pdusen wrote...
It's not a matter of privilege. I don't see a problem because there is no problem. If Bioware had filled that video almost entirely with female protagonists, or referred to to the Inquisitor as a She, I wouldn't have even blinked at it. Hell, almost every Tabletop RPG book I've ever read has done exactly that.

The only implications are the ones that you put into it.

It clearly is a problem, since it bothers people? But it doesn't bother you - so you're saying it's not a problem. That's textbook privilege, sorry.

+1

[Scroll]

I'm so far ok with the tiny, tiny bit of fem presentation. I was disappointed, but after having the fem prot pointed out it feels better. I will be extremely disappointed if we don't get to se fem in action in a gameplay trailer or in a cinematic trailer though. Only time will tell.

Modifié par Scr0ll, 20 août 2013 - 07:58 .

[MiSS Provencale]

Nyneve wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

As a woman, lesbian, feminist and writer I am saddened again it appears (and I admit I am assuming here) from what we saw in the video BW is designing DAI with the fact that the protagonist is male. Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs.

Many here will ask? What is wrong with that? Well in my opinion it belittles the female sex to an afterthought of the male. I ask you BW? How different do you think this story would be if the protagonist was a woman and seeing the world through her eyes? I am not saying one is better than the other but what I am saying is that they are different.

No matter how many people want it to not be, the fact is men and women see and experience the world differently. If the game had been written for a female protagonist I bet that there would have to be some changes that would have to be made if the player chose to play male. But for some reason, when a game is written for a male, there doesn't seem to be the same concern for making changes if someone wants to play as female. What this means is just what I said above, by not making the female experience different than the males you are basically saying the male experience should be good enough for you without any changes, which belittles women by basically saying a man's experience is somehow more universal or even better.

This is the very reason that when the game is developed/written the male POV is almost always chosen even if the player can choose to play as female. As a society, it has been assumed that the male POV/experience is somehow more universal than choosing to write it as a female POV. It is assumed that instead of writing two different POV's the male's is good enough for both. But do we ever see that the other way round? And the fact that we don't (or hardly ever do) means that somewhere out there it is assumed that the female POV/experience isn't suitable or good enough for men. So basically as women we have to choose (in most gaming) to just make do because it should be good enough for us to enjoy.

I was truly hoping this time that maybe BW might understand this and give us women something special, just for us (and those who want to play as us).

Hmm. You make some good points, but all in all I have to disagree. I don't want to play from a female POV, I want a gender neutral POV. Because what exactly should change when you play as female? Some PCs do make comments, but I think wheter in real life or in the games, the differences between individuals are wider than between the gender, and I wouldn't want anyone to assume that there's one type of how women see the world. They could be stereotypically feminine or masculine or somewhere in between and the game can't really have that many variables for different genders for the PC, so just make it the same as on the playthrough with a male PC.

And yeah, I'd like to see more female Inquisotors in marketing. Also, there seem to be a lot of people here who use the word "feminist" as sort of an insult? It's not.

Feminist is rather a regressive term. only macho use these terms to prove a misconception that women who express themselves freely wrong. this is sad ...

[John Epler]

Conflating hair and gender as being 'basically the same thing' is also not something we're doing in this thread.

One is a fundamental part of someone's identity and how they are treated by society. The other is hair.

[pdusen]

phunx wrote...

It clearly is a problem, since it bothers people? But it doesn't bother you - so you're saying it's not a problem. That's textbook privilege, sorry.

Everyone has things that bother them. Some of them are reasonable.

[esper]

pdusen wrote...

John Epler wrote...

It's worth remembering that, as men, it's very easy for us to say 'I don't see a problem!'

The vast majority of protagonists and heroes in media are men. Privilege is basically the acknowledgment that, as far as culture goes, you are the default. Recognizing that and acknowledging that people fighting for more inclusivity are entirely correct to do so isn't easy, but it's necessary if you want to have conversations about these sorts of issues.

It's not a matter of privilege. I don't see a problem because there is no problem. If Bioware had filled that video almost entirely with female protagonists, or referred to to the Inquisitor as a She, I wouldn't have even blinked at it. Hell, almost every Tabletop RPG book I've ever read has done exactly that.

The only implications are the ones that you put into it.

You can come and say 'I wouldn't even blink at it', the day it actually happens. That reaction is typical from a priviliged posistion and this is what I mean when I say that I am more dissapointed with BSN reaction than I am with bioware's.

[Argahawk]

I'm sure soon we will have more videos/screens of female inquisitor

Modifié par Argahawk, 20 août 2013 - 07:59 .

[pdusen]

John Epler wrote...

Conflating hair and gender as being 'basically the same thing' is also not something we're doing in this thread.

One is a fundamental part of someone's identity and how they are treated by society. The other is hair.

They are both customization options. I didn't make any implication beyond that fact.

[Nyneve]

pdusen wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

pdusen wrote...

esper wrote...
It espically send the wrong message when they go: 'Oh you can customize your inquestior' and then don't mention gender.

They didn't mention hair either.

Women not being shown does not equal hair not being shown.

I would hope we value half the human race slightly higher than hair. Maybe.

Sure. But as far as the game is concerned, both of them are customization options that require swapping in alternate assets. The fact that hair was not mentioned in that particular soundbyte doesn't somehow invalidate hair as a customization option.

The exact same is true for gender.

I think you're missing the point. Hair doesn't lack equal representation in (video game) marketing.

[MisterJB]

AutumnWitch wrote...

As a woman, lesbian, feminist and writer I am saddened again it appears (and I admit I am assuming here) from what we saw in the video BW is designing DAI with the fact that the protagonist is male. Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs.

Many here will ask? What is wrong with that? Well in my opinion it belittles the female sex to an afterthought of the male. I ask you BW? How different do you think this story would be if the protagonist was a woman and seeing the world through her eyes? I am not saying one is better than the other but what I am saying is that they are different.

No matter how many people want it to not be, the fact is men and women see and experience the world differently. If the game had been written for a female protagonist I bet that there would have to be some changes that would have to be made if the player chose to play male. But for some reason, when a game is written for a male, there doesn't seem to be the same concern for making changes if someone wants to play as female. What this means is just what I said above, by not making the female experience different than the males you are basically saying the male experience should be good enough for you without any changes, which belittles women by basically saying a man's experience is somehow more universal or even better.

Please elaborate on how, for instance, DA2 is a "typically" male experience; what actions Hawke takes that a woman should not or would not take because of her different perspective and what actions would a female Hawke choose to undertake that it would not even ocurr to a male Hawke because, again, of this distinct world perspective.

[Sylvianus]

I'm all with female gamers. This is a fair issue in my opinion.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 août 2013 - 08:00 .

[TheBreadedOne]

John Epler wrote...

Conflating hair and gender as being 'basically the same thing' is also not something we're doing in this thread.

One is a fundamental part of someone's identity and how they are treated by society. The other is hair.

You missed a chance for a fun switch-a-roo.

[pdusen]

esper wrote...

You can come and say 'I wouldn't even blink at it', the day it actually happens. That reaction is typical from a priviliged posistion and this is what I mean when I say that I am more dissapointed with BSN reaction than I am with bioware's.

I gave you an example of a very common situation in which it DOES happen.

[AutumnWitch]

Nyneve wrote...

Hmm. You make some good points, but all in all I have to disagree. I don't want to play from a female POV, I want a gender neutral POV. Because what exactly should change when you play as female? Some PCs do make comments, but I think wheter in real life or in the games, the differences between individuals are wider than between the gender, and I wouldn't want anyone to assume that there's one type of how women see the world. They could be stereotypically feminine or masculine or somewhere in between and the game can't really have that many variables for different genders for the PC, so just make it the same as on the playthrough with a male PC.

And yeah, I'd like to see more female Inquisotors in marketing. Also, there seem to be a lot of people here who use the word "feminist" as sort of an insult? It's not.

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As far as the feminist thing, Im in my 40s and have just reached the point that I am tired of hiding that fact incase it upsets anyone...and what people dont get is that being a feminist isnt anti-male its just looking out for the good of women in general. Hell I have two boys and they are the roughest, toughest boys on the block! 

Modifié par AutumnWitch, 20 août 2013 - 07:59 .

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@Soundsystem, to be honest the main reason I'm upset about that is because it just plainly shows how the ME team thought of female homosexuality as somehow more important or valid than male sexuality as well (If there were 2 straight options for male Shepard and 3 gay options, IMAGINE the outcry there would have been).

Sorry, I know that wasn't relevant to DA:i just had to vent. Back to OT now

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

The hair and gender discussion is so silly. You can change hair. You can't change gender.

[Little Princess Peach]

Just get over it we are lucky we can play as females at all, most rpg games never give you the option, at least in the old days we had to play as a male.

anyway it's not about male and females it's just showing you bits and bobs, look at Masseffect fem shep was at the back of the cover, game designers are Iffy on the sex's thing, makes them feel uncomfortable, and they also have to becareful about offending people.

Just stop making big whohars about matters like these because you will never ever win an argument touchy feely subject

[MiSS Provencale]

Sylvianus wrote...

I'm all with female gamers. This is a fair issue in my opinion.

Thank you

[TheBreadedOne]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

The hair and gender discussion is so silly. You can change hair. You can't change gender.

Uh...

[pdusen]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As an experiment, a male and female writer could each write all of the lines for the inquisitor, and then get together and decide which lines from each set that they both find acceptable.

Modifié par pdusen, 20 août 2013 - 08:02 .